Sweet Lou 14 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 10:10 AM, MikeRN said: You sound like an honest dealer. I edited my original post after some long thoughts; and I do understand there is more than one point of view: In this case, specifically, buyer and seller. Moreover, I get how a seller has to contend with eBay's 13% fee, among the myriad of other issues involved with running a business-as you pointed out in your post: I'm sure it's very involved. So if I offended, it was unintentional , and I apologize. However, I felt I made fair offers, and raising the price $500 after showing interest, and after coming back willing to pay what he wanted days earlier, was very frustrating. In addition, the higher the price the more tax added on to the final sale price. I was just looking to get the book for a fair price. I know this thread is very long, and went in some other directions since your original post, but if you look carefully through the replies that directly address what you said I think you'll see people agreeing that your experience was no good and further reinforcing that by confirming a pattern of behavior by that particular seller (who, again, is not a professional dealer). MikeRN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bookery Posted October 23, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2022 I feel I have an advantage as a dealer who can post experiences here, as no one can really accuse me of doing it to be self-serving. I don't set up at shows, and I rarely do mail-order. I sell-through anything of consequence right here in the shop, so the vast majority of people on these boards will never encounter me. I look at items people sell me almost as if they have a set price to me at a specific point in time. It's kind of like a gas-station operator... prices change all the time, but today this is what I'm going to have to pay for fuel. So it's not a matter of trying to judge how low a seller will go. I'm pretty much going to pay what I'm going to pay regardless of who you are. The rate may fluctuate due to market conditions, or how many copies I have in stock, or how much trouble the collection is (bags sticking together, high percentage of drek to get the "good stuff", rat-chewed items next to solid copies, etc.). The bottom line is -- it's not as hard as people try to make it out to be. Like everything in life, it doesn't pay to be lazy. Pick out a selection of dealers who are fair and reasonable... these boards toss out names all the time of who is trustworthy. Some of the dealers are here on the boards themselves. Go to shows and meet them. You can quickly weed out the bad from the good. A dozen large honest dealers coupled with mycomicshop, the big auction houses, etc., will give you access to tens and tens of thousands of collectibles each year. How many do you need? Stop killing yourselves trying to negotiate with dealers who are untrustworthy or just inept. You don't need what they have that badly. Stick with who you know. Over time, as you hear good testimonials, you may add some others to your list. And don't set unreasonable expectations. Stop telling yourself that you must get 90% of the highest-ever recorded GPA price, and then call dealers "crooks" who won't give it to you. Also-- understand the market. I'm not paying as high a percentage for many books right now as I did just 6 months ago. the market has changed. Last year the trend was ever-upwards, so I could justify paying higher percentages than ever before. Now the trend on many items is downward... so percentages will have to account for that risk and adjust accordingly. Know the marketability of your item. All $100 books are not equal. What I pay for a decent bronze-age book will differ from what I pay for your limited variant signature-series book from an obscure artist. Sure-- you love the guy and his work... but most of my customers have never heard of him! And be fair. You can't complain that a dealer won't pay you 90% for your collection, while simultaneously complaining that he won't give you a 20% discount off his stock. Like I said... it's really not that hard. Too many comic collectors are putting a lot more stress into this than they need to. buttock, goldust40, badback83 and 9 others 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookery Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 10:59 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said: My only quibble is, while I understand what you mean when you say "almost everyone is a dealer these days," I do think that blurs the distinction between someone who's selling out of their own personal collection (that would be me, a very small percentage of the time), someone who's flipping books as their side hustle (no matter how much volume they are doing), and a professional dealer. Yeah, it's a bit of shortcut-speak. What I mean is the days of most people selling having no idea of what they have is long gone. You're not a dealer... but you have access to information and you know pretty much what you have. It's not like pre-internet days. The only exceptions are, as I pointed out, those few elderly folks out there just now getting rid of their stuff, or relatives who aren't collectors themselves faced with handling an estate. It's not an exaggeration to say that almost every day someone comes into the shop looking to sell just a handful of comics. These may be items they are purging from their collection, or just stuff they picked up at a yard sale. I ask them if they have a price in mind. They say "oh I have no idea what comics are worth". Okay... fine... so I go through them and make an offer. They respond "I can't do that! I saw on eBay where they are asking X-amount for this!". In these scenarios, this type of response occurs awfully close to... 100% of the time. It's very exhausting. BanjerD, Sweet Lou 14 and thehumantorch 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Man Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 8:05 AM, Bookery said: I feel I have an advantage as a dealer who can post experiences here, as no one can really accuse me of doing it to be self-serving. I don't set up at shows, and I rarely do mail-order. I sell-through anything of consequence right here in the shop, so the vast majority of people on these boards will never encounter me. I look at items people sell me almost as if they have a set price to me at a specific point in time. It's kind of like a gas-station operator... prices change all the time, but today this is what I'm going to have to pay for fuel. So it's not a matter of trying to judge how low a seller will go. I'm pretty much going to pay what I'm going to pay regardless of who you are. The rate may fluctuate due to market conditions, or how many copies I have in stock, or how much trouble the collection is (bags sticking together, high percentage of drek to get the "good stuff", rat-chewed items next to solid copies, etc.). The bottom line is -- it's not as hard as people try to make it out to be. Like everything in life, it doesn't pay to be lazy. Pick out a selection of dealers who are fair and reasonable... these boards toss out names all the time of who is trustworthy. Some of the dealers are here on the boards themselves. Go to shows and meet them. You can quickly weed out the bad from the good. A dozen large honest dealers coupled with mycomicshop, the big auction houses, etc., will give you access to tens and tens of thousands of collectibles each year. How many do you need? Stop killing yourselves trying to negotiate with dealers who are untrustworthy or just inept. You don't need what they have that badly. Stick with who you know. Over time, as you hear good testimonials, you may add some others to your list. And don't set unreasonable expectations. Stop telling yourself that you must get 90% of the highest-ever recorded GPA price, and then call dealers "crooks" who won't give it to you. Also-- understand the market. I'm not paying as high a percentage for many books right now as I did just 6 months ago. the market has changed. Last year the trend was ever-upwards, so I could justify paying higher percentages than ever before. Now the trend on many items is downward... so percentages will have to account for that risk and adjust accordingly. Know the marketability of your item. All $100 books are not equal. What I pay for a decent bronze-age book will differ from what I pay for your limited variant signature-series book from an obscure artist. Sure-- you love the guy and his work... but most of my customers have never heard of him! And be fair. You can't complain that a dealer won't pay you 90% for your collection, while simultaneously complaining that he won't give you a 20% discount off his stock. Like I said... it's really not that hard. Too many comic collectors are putting a lot more stress into this than they need to. Perfectly said. Really appreciate your posts. Like you said. Understand the market and educate your self accordingly. No one will rip you off unless you let them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Kid Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) On 10/23/2022 at 3:59 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said: "almost everyone is a dealer these days," "dealer" to me is the guy that sets up at shows, has a store, buys collections large and small, holds inventory... etc. everyone else I consider flippers or "wannabee dealers", they adopt the title but that's all they have and are. Edited October 23, 2022 by Gotham Kid Sweet Lou 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookery Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, Gotham Kid said: "dealer" to me is the guy that sets up at shows, has a store, holds inventory... etc. everyone else I consider flippers or "wannabee" dealers, they adopt the title but that's all they have and are. I agree with your definition, actually... I was making a generalization. Though nothing is ever clear cut. I know flippers who are extremely knowledgeable and fair in their dealings. But again... it's all about how much work you want to put into it, whether as a dealer, or a collector. Gotham Kid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bookery Posted October 23, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 10:10 AM, MikeRN said: You sound like an honest dealer. I edited my original post after some long thoughts; and I do understand there is more than one point of view: In this case, specifically, buyer and seller. Moreover, I get how a seller has to contend with eBay's 13% fee, among the myriad of other issues involved with running a business-as you pointed out in your post: I'm sure it's very involved. So if I offended, it was unintentional , and I apologize. However, I felt I made fair offers, and raising the price $500 after showing interest, and after coming back willing to pay what he wanted days earlier, was very frustrating. In addition, the higher the price the more tax added on to the final sale price. I was just looking to get the book for a fair price. I'm not offended by your post, or even Jimbo's. I do feel a need to now and then set the record straight. In fact, I don't believe you should keep trying to deal with the seller in your OP and agree in your frustration. While technically he didn't do anything "crooked"... life's too short to deal with buyers or sellers who behave annoyingly. While I may be defending those of us dealers who have spent our lives trying to be good at our jobs, I'm also hoping to point collectors toward less-stressful solutions to collecting. It's not just here... I have a number of customers who constantly agonize over their hobby... they stress over those books they sold 10 years ago that are now worth 5 times as much, they have regrets over the show-buy they made last week and worry they paid too much, I have another customer who has been coming in for 20 years with the same lament... he wants to sell some of his stuff, but just can't figure out how to get 100% retail (his words) for his items... the dealers won't pay him "full value", and the auction houses and eBay want those annoying fees and commissions! I'm serious -- he's in real emotional pain about this. Legion of Goom, thehumantorch, Meekrab and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazingbob Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 11:43 AM, Bookery said: I'm not offended by your post, or even Jimbo's. I do feel a need to now and then set the record straight. In fact, I don't believe you should keep trying to deal with the seller in your OP and agree in your frustration. While technically he didn't do anything "crooked"... life's too short to deal with buyers or sellers who behave annoyingly. While I may be defending those of us dealers who have spent our lives trying to be good at our jobs, I'm also hoping to point collectors toward less-stressful solutions to collecting. It's not just here... I have a number of customers who constantly agonize over their hobby... they stress over those books they sold 10 years ago that are now worth 5 times as much, they have regrets over the show-buy they made last week and worry they paid too much, I have another customer who has been coming in for 20 years with the same lament... he wants to sell some of his stuff, but just can't figure out how to get 100% retail (his words) for his items... the dealers won't pay him "full value", and the auction houses and eBay want those annoying fees and commissions! I'm serious -- he's in real emotional pain about this. Hmmm, annoying fees and commissions. The Me-Free Movement is alive and well. bob Bookery, D84 and thehumantorch 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Love Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 this would be the time for a plug for the world's foremost dealer, My Comic Shop. Leaving aside any discussion of their inventory and operation, this much is true they are the only comic market maker. Theoretically, the Saunders backstop the entire market. They do this with unparalleled access to published bids and asks on their database - hundreds of thousands of items? You can see their spread in real time. You can check their valuations, certainly on raw, and request a written bid on slabbed items that doesn't take long to get. MCS is the only dealer I've ever seen with a written guarantee that is the fundamental basis for a trustworthy business: "While we cannot guarantee that a book graded twice will receive the same grade each time, we can guarantee that every comic we sell has been listed at the grade at which we purchased it." KCOComics, buttock, Point Five and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N e r V Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) On 10/23/2022 at 8:26 AM, Gotham Kid said: "dealer" to me is the guy that sets up at shows, has a store, buys collections large and small, holds inventory... etc. everyone else I consider flippers or "wannabee dealers", they adopt the title but that's all they have and are. On 10/23/2022 at 8:31 AM, Bookery said: I agree with your definition, actually... I was making a generalization. Though nothing is ever clear cut. I know flippers who are extremely knowledgeable and fair in their dealings. But again... it's all about how much work you want to put into it, whether as a dealer, or a collector. I mostly agree with that but not really the store point and especially now in 2022. There were a number of dealers in the past who lived on mail order as their business model. Also a number who actually did have stores made more money with their mail order vs what their stores brought in. Fast forward today with being able to have a pretty large viable business model using things like eBay stores or your own personal website and any number of a host of avenues to sell books via the internet the “store model” is not really even a main option today. Part of that problem is having a store was great for selling new comics and items in the past but that market is so small today you have to really be more creative. I have the highest respect for those that successfully run that business model today and I’m even more impressed with the Bedrocks who run more than one store but I grew up in an era here in San Diego alone which was full of comic book stores and now they only exist in smaller numbers. They’re still there for sure but in far fewer numbers. I think it’s down to the individuals choice today if they want to remain a “flipper”, “part time dealer” or go all out as a full time business. There’s certainly an easier path to grow your business today then when I was around in pre or early internet days when you either bought into a storefront or worked your butt off updating catalogues via mail order and doing assorted shows or running ads in various fanzines,etc… Edited October 23, 2022 by N e r V Gotham Kid and MikeRN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Color Brian Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 8:26 AM, Gotham Kid said: "dealer" to me is the guy that sets up at shows, has a store, buys collections large and small, holds inventory... etc. everyone else I consider flippers or "wannabee dealers", they adopt the title but that's all they have and are. I agree, but don't forget the collectors who just occasionally sell books they don't want any more. Would they be a type of dealer? Or just collectors liquidating a few books, like we see here on the boards? Sometimes you have to be careful when dealing with a few of them too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bookery Posted October 23, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 3:02 PM, N e r V said: but I grew up in an era here in San Diego alone which was full of comic book stores and now they only exist in smaller numbers. They’re still there for sure but in far fewer numbers. I agree, and you would think that would be the case everywhere. But not in my area. Every year in the Dayton-Cincinnati region one or two more shops open up. And almost nobody goes out of business (for long), because as soon as they do, some employee or customer buys them out and continues on. This is repeated endlessly. I got out of new comics altogether this past spring (after nearly 40 years) and now deal only in back-issues (and also posters, pulps, and select rare books). Your scenario, however, was very much true for the used/rare book market. In the '70s and '80s, for some reason, Dayton had more used-rare bookshops than Chicago. All but a couple are gone now. You are also correct that owning a comic shop today is a very difficult thing to make profitable. The trouble is... so many think it will be a success, and they desperately want to make money with their hobby rather than join the mainstream workforce... that, around here at least, shops just keep opening up. Of course, rent isn't as daunting here as in San Diego, so that may account for much of it. Anyway, there were far too many shops dividing up a very small number of new-comic buyers that I exited that grief. But as a collectibles shop of 4 decades, I have the assets and reputation that I can do well in that area (for now, at least) and the buildings and all loans are long ago paid off, which makes a big difference. But there is no way I would open a brick and mortar collectibles operation from scratch in today's environment. buttock, Northwest, PopKulture and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/22/2022 at 4:30 PM, jimbo_7071 said: Here's a hint: if a dealer asks you how much you want for a book before he'll make you an offer, walk away. That dealer is a sleazeball. Any honest dealer knows way more about the current value of comics than most collectors. An honest dealer can make you a fair offer without needing an asking price from you. Any dealer who insists that you state a dollar amount first is a complete scumbag who is looking for an easy mark to fleece. This is pure BS. Certainly if someone walks in the door of my store with no knowledge of what they have I will take the initiative and make the first offer. But you, Jimbo, are a collector. If you are selling a book you should know what you want for it. If you are offering it to anyone, whether dealer or collector, you should know what you want for your book. If I ask you what you want for your book that doesn't make me a sleazeball. Sure, you can ask for an offer first and I will gladly give it. But if you simply want me to make you an offer so you can go shop my offer around what does that make you? greggy, D84 and thehumantorch 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 1:50 PM, MrBedrock said: But if you simply want me to make you an offer so you can go shop my offer around what does that make you? An auctioneer? Cat-Man_America and MrBedrock 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 1:17 PM, adamstrange said: An auctioneer? There sure are a ton of auctioneers at comic conventions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 2:26 PM, MrBedrock said: There sure are a ton of auctioneers at comic conventions! Most of them unlicensed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 3:19 PM, adamstrange said: Most of them unlicensed! How much do you want for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat-Man_America Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 3:19 PM, adamstrange said: Most of them unlicensed! It's the licensed ones you have to watch out for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusterMark Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 1:34 PM, MrBedrock said: On 10/25/2022 at 1:19 PM, adamstrange said: Most of them unlicensed! How much do you want for them? What's your offer? Bumble Kitty, tth2 and MrBedrock 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobbledclam Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 11:17 AM, adamstrange said: An auctioneer? MrBedrock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...