Marvel Multi Packs Question 1 1

[ferrariguy]

Hi Everyone,

I apologize as I couldn't see a thread on this but here goes:

I have a Marvel multi pack from 1967 N0. 68-A6 and at that time was 4 comics for 47 cents.

 It contains Amazing Spider-Man 62, Daredevil 41, Hulk 105, and Uncanny X-Men 45. I know on the site that Marvel multi packs were from 1977-79 and that the price and issue# was in a diamond figure. However, the issues in this 1967 multi-pack looks like a regular newsstand comic.

 My question is if I remove the comics from the pack and submit them, would they be recognized as a multi-pack comic even if I specified that on the submission form?

Thanks,

Lawrence

[MattM CS]

Hello,

Thank you for your email. This books would not receive the Multipack designation. This is because there is nothing on the books themselves to distinguish them from being different from the regular newsstand editions. This is unlike the 1977-79 multipacks that have distinguishing features like the diamond to designate them as multipack editions. Even if these were sent in their current sealed pack, they would not receive the multipack designation. This can be reviewed on our census information of these books HERE. Let us know if you have any other questions. Have a great day!

[Skwerl]

CGC has some misunderstandings about Marvel "multipack editions." Nerdsplain ahead. I'm (ahem) an elder collector with a background in printing and distribution, and I know beyond a shadow of doubt that there weren't any Marvel comics printed specifically for multipacks. The "diamond boxes" were designed when Marvel started doing direct distribution in 1976-1977 and needed versions wth the Curtis (CC) insignia (Curtis distributed to newsstands and wanted their mark on the books), and others without (Curtis did not want their mark on books they didn't distrubute).

The only reason Marvel went through the considerable trouble of printing two different versions of each release is because of that situation with Curtis. They had no reason to complicate things further than that for multipacks, which after all, were only created as a way of moving more existing (as in already printed) stock! There would have been no point in printing an additional variant for the packs. At first the direct versions had UPC codes and diamonds, and then (with some turbulence) evolved to no UPC codes, UPC codes with lines through them, and then to things like the famous Spidey head.

They initially removed the UPC codes from direct versions for two reasons. One, retailers were scanning the comics' UPC codes through the multipacks, rather than the UPC code on the multipack. Two, some retailers were returning discounted direct stock for the full newsstand price. That had to stop.

Almost all multipacks contained direct editions for the reasons just mentioned. But before 1976 there were only newsstand editions. That's why OP has a multipack from 1967 with newsstand editions in it.

In any case, the bottom line is that for any given Marvel title/issue/printing, there is no more than two versions: Newsstand, and direct. There is no such thing as a third "multipack edition."

There were some runs that got pretty messy. Star Wars was a great example in 1977. Issue #1 first print was only available in newsstand. Issue #2 first print had a newsstand and a direct (diamond box, with UPC). Then the movie was released, and it was a frenzy. Issue #1 got a second and then a third print, both direct and newsstand editions of each, as did issue #2, and then issues #3 and #4 and on. Before issue #5, the first prints were 30¢, but then later prints were 35¢. And then complicating matters even further, Marvel tested 35¢ prices out on a small number of those first prints (and some other titles in 1977) in a couple specific markets, hence valuable "price variants." And anyway, big chunks of those secondary print runs went into multipacks that sold well everywhere of course. Places that didn't carry comics were happy to order some Star Wars comics multipacks. To a lot of collectors, these are the go-to example for "multipack editions" and "whitman reprints" but these are both misnomers. The diamond box issues are all simply early Marvel direct editions. Many are reprints. But issues #2 on do have first prints with diamond boxes. This has become an insane tangent, but the TL;DR is that each specific printing of each issue has only two versions at most: Direct and newsstand. Okay, fine, the exception is a few of the first prints with the 35¢ price variant.

Incidentally, Whitman only ever had a deal to print DC comics. There is literally no such thing as a Whitman marvel comic, with just a couple of very unique exceptions; the oversized Marvel Star Wars Treasury editions for example. There are, however, Whitman editions of DC titles. And Whitman proudly slapped their logo on the cover as they did with anything they printed.

If CGC thinks I'm wrong about any of this I can point to information Marvel themselves published in the 1970s and early 1980s explaining this, and I can share evidence of so-called "multipack editions" being sold outside of multipacks, both on racks and via subscriptions, as well as evidence of multipacks containing regular direct editions and newsstand editions. Happy to help, if CGC cares to straighten this out.

[Skwerl]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:53 AM, WAWYA said:

https://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/Direct/index.php

Yeah, that information has been out there for a long time now and is... mostly correct. Does something in there contradict anything I said? It seems to be unsusre of some things I'm sure of, and wrong on a few theories. Such as:

Quote

The existence of UPC barcode lines was thought by some to indicate if an issue was in a Whitman 3-pack or if the issue was sold as a single issue.

Nope, just means it was direct.

But it's right on some key points:

Quote

The earliest distributor of these diamond cover issues was Western Publishing Company which sold these issues in their Whitman three-packs... While it is true Western Publishing was the largest distributor of these early diamond issues between 1977-1979 there is anecdotal evidence that indicates they were not the only distributor.

Absolutely true. (And note that for Marvel packs, Whitman just made the packs, not the comics. Also, Whitman wasn't the only multipack game in town.)

Slim / fat diamonds and the "M" don't have a meaning to distribution, those were just cosmetic decisions.

Notice you won't see two of the same comic with two of the different "Type 1" / "Type 2" etc. that that page shows. Type 3s were actually a mistake; those comics weren't distributed by Curtis yet they have the CC insignia. Mistakes happened and the transition to prevent bar code scanning didn't happen overnight or evenly.

There was only newsstand and direct. No "multipack edition." Multipacks all just had direct editions, at least starting in early 1977ish once they existed.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Skwerl
Clarification

[Warlord]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:47 AM, Skwerl said:

 I can share evidence of so-called "multipack editions" being sold outside of multipacks, both on racks and via subscriptions,

If you have any info for Marvel comics from 1977 through May 1979 (the "diamond" issue timeframe) please share your evidence with all of us! 

[Skwerl]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:22 PM, Warlord said:

If you have any info for Marvel comics from 1977 through May 1979 (the "diamond" issue timeframe) please share your evidence with all of us! 

Here's something handy... a little while ago a friend pulled so-called "multipack" editions out of Marvel subscription mailers.

Somewhere I have a photo of a comic book rack with "multipack" variants on it outside of packs.

They're all just direct editions. Direct sales, subscriptions, multipacks all had the same versions.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Skwerl
Added Note

[Skwerl]

On 11/20/2022 at 7:22 PM, Warlord said:

If you have any info for Marvel comics from 1977 through May 1979 (the "diamond" issue timeframe) please share your evidence with all of us! 

Oh, and here's more, Marvel explaining the diamonds; this appeared in the back of a few different issues in the late 70s / early 80s after people asked. Had nothing to do with multipacks:

 

[Skwerl]

Sooo, yeah. Multipack editions aren't a thing and CGC needs to stop with that. 😉
Just newsstand and direct. All Marvel, no Whitman Marvels.
Titles actually published by Whitman will have a big Whitman logo on the cover without exception.
Once direct editions existed, only direct editions went into multipacks, but they also went everywhere else that wasn't serviced by Curtis.

[Warlord]

On 11/20/2022 at 10:30 PM, Skwerl said:

Here's something handy... a little while ago a friend pulled so-called "multipack" editions out of Marvel subscription mailers.

Somewhere I have a photo of a comic book rack with "multipack" variants on it outside of packs.

They're all just direct editions. Direct sales, subscriptions, multipacks all had the same versions.

Thanks for the share!!!  That's interesting, but very strange, that someone was delivered comics marked as "Reprints" for their subscription.  Your friend was ripped off!   Given the frenzy over Star Wars #1, it doesn't seem totally shocking that they'd have sent their first prints to retailers and made up for the shortage by sticking subscribers with reprints.   So that's clearly evidence of something, but you're stretching to use that example to conclude that these versions are direct editions.  It does make it evident that some of these Marvel comics made it out into the world without going through Whitman's multi-packs.  Which isn't too surprising.

I remember buying Star Wars #1 at my LCS.  It was the newsstand version with the UPC.   My retailer told me later that he couldn't sell the multi-pack variants because customers considered them reprints and so he literally threw them away when he found any in back issue collections he purchased. 

[Warlord]

On 11/20/2022 at 10:50 PM, Skwerl said:

Oh, and here's more, Marvel explaining the diamonds; this appeared in the back of a few different issues in the late 70s / early 80s after people asked. Had nothing to do with multipacks:

 

The image on the left, showing a 50 cent cover price, has to be circa 1980/81-ish.  For comics printed in that timeframe, I don't think anyone would dispute that the diamonds were clearly direct editions.  If CGC tries to say that Marvel's June 1979 diamond issues are multi-pack variants (aka Whitmans) and not direct market versions then I'd be with you in objecting. May 1979 though? Not so fast.  The debate lies in the 1977 through May 1979 Marvels. 

What's the time of publication of the image on the right?

[Warlord]

On 11/20/2022 at 10:56 PM, Skwerl said:

Once direct editions existed, only direct editions went into multipacks, but they also went everywhere else that wasn't serviced by Curtis.

[Skwerl]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:11 AM, Warlord said:

The image on the left, showing a 50 cent cover price, has to be circa 1980/81-ish.  For comics printed in that timeframe, I don't think anyone would dispute that the diamonds were clearly direct editions.  If CGC tries to say that Marvel's June 1979 diamond issues are multi-pack variants (aka Whitmans) and not direct market versions then I'd be with you in objecting. May 1979 though? Not so fast.  The debate lies in the 1977 through May 1979 Marvels. 

What's the time of publication of the image on the right?

Both from Marvel Team-Up #108, 1981

 

On 11/21/2022 at 11:26 AM, Warlord said:

Ahh!! Okay, fair play! I actually have seen these, these were from 1978. So I'll concede that newsstand editions did occasionally show up in multipacks! Something to point out here: The first one came from Marvel, who would have had newsstand inventory on hand. The one on the right came from Whitman, who only had direct inventory. Whitman bags existed, yes, no one disputes that. But the Marvel comics inside were all published by Marvel, and indistinguishable from the versions that appeared outside of packs.

Some people look at these images and think that the diamond box versions were made specifically for Whitman multipacks since that's what they have while the Marvel ones are "normal." But it was just direct inventory put into the packs. There would have never been any point to printing a third variant of any Marvel issue just to put into multipacks.

Incidentally, just to defend the hill I'm on here a little further: You won't find any other versions of ASM #186 than these two. You won't find a direct version that looks different from the one in the multipack. There was only direct and newsstand, and to call the one on the right a "multipack variant" implies that there was something else on direct racks. There wasn't.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Skwerl
Last little note...

[Skwerl]

Actually, I need to add a little nitpicky thing; it will eat at me if I don't. I used some terms a little too casually. It wasn't just that Marvel had newsstand copies for "their" bags per se. It was that those bags (the "Marvel" ones on the left) were presumably distributed through Curtis rather than Western. Multipacks were a way to dump excess inventory at a combo discount. So what I should have said earlier to be more accurate is that Whitman (through Western Distro) multipacks only had direct. But any multipacks distributed by Curtis would have had newsstand copies.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:35 PM, Skwerl said:

Actually, I need to add a little nitpicky thing; it will eat at me if I don't. I used some terms a little too casually. It wasn't just that Marvel had newsstand copies for "their" bags per se. It was that those bags (the "Marvel" ones on the left) were presumably distributed through Curtis rather than Western. Multipacks were a way to dump excess inventory at a combo discount. So what I should have said earlier to be more accurate is that Whitman (through Western Distro) multipacks only had direct. But any multipacks distributed by Curtis would have had newsstand copies.

This thread might interest you Skwerl, if you haven't already seen it:

Make sure you wear a hard hat though, as discussions about 'Whitmans' can get a little heated 

[Skwerl]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:41 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

This thread might interest you Skwerl, if you haven't already seen it:

Make sure you wear a hard hat though, as discussions about 'Whitmans' can get a little heated 

Haha, yeah, thanks, I have seen that. I'm a pretty big Whitman enthusiast, and also a big fan of early direct versions. Everything I've said in this thread applies only to Marvel stuff, because that was a much more self-contained situation as Marvel didn't allow Whitman to print any Marvel titles (aside from stuff like treasury editions, Superman Vs. Muhammad Ali, etc.). When you get into Whitman printings of DC and Gold Key stuff, you're talking about multiple companies all doing whatever the heck they wanted to do, haha. That's a much bigger mess that I applaud others for trying to untangle, but my hill is just that Marvel "multipack / whitman" variants are nothing more than Marvel direct editions between 1977-1979 before they simply made the diamond smaller.

[Warlord]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:48 PM, Skwerl said:

 Marvel "multipack / whitman" variants are nothing more than Marvel direct editions between 1977-1979 before they simply made the diamond smaller.

There were small diamonds in that earlier timeframe too.  I think this cover dated July 1977 version of John Carter Warlord of Mars #2 was probably the first.  It was only effective with June 1979 cover dated issues that the small diamond layout was used on all Marvel titles.  Spidey Super Stories and Tarzan also had small diamonds in, I believe, 1978.

 

[Warlord]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:29 PM, Skwerl said:

Both from Marvel Team-Up #108, 1981

 

Thanks!

[Warlord]

Here's a question which I've never heard answered well by the "direct" proponents - why were there so many Marvel titles, and issues within some titles, that don't have diamond versions? For instance, Howard the Duck has only one issue.  X-Men, a long-running title, has only one issue.  Daredevil, a long-running title, has only two issues. etc etc.  I think there were about 40 Marvel titles from 1977 through May 1979 that had diamond versions for at least one issue. Where were the diamond versions for the rest?  See the image below using Marvel's February 1977 lineup, to illustrate the point - out of the first 24 issues shown, only 10 were printed with diamond versions.   You can find many examples of Whitman multi-packs that contain diamond versions for this timeframe.  I suspect that eventually it will be documented that every diamond comic in this timeframe was found in a Whitman multipack.  But what about the opposite?  You would have a harder time finding examples of diamond comics that can't be documented to exist (Yet! I think all will be documented eventually) in Whitman multipacks.   If these diamond versions were Marvel's direct editions, why are there titles with none at all, or why the titles with so few issues?  I think the answer is because Whitman was the driving force for the production of the diamond versions.  If Whitman didn't order them, they weren't published.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by Warlord

[Skwerl]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:07 PM, Warlord said:

Here's a question which I've never heard answered well by the "direct" proponents - why were there so many Marvel titles, and issues within some titles, that don't have diamond versions? For instance, Howard the Duck has only one issue.  X-Men, a long-running title, has only one issue.  Daredevil, a long-running title, has only two issues. etc etc.  I think there were about 40 Marvel titles from 1977 through May 1979 that had diamond versions for at least one issue. Where were the diamond versions for the rest?  See the image below using Marvel's February 1977 lineup, to illustrate the point - out of the first 24 issues shown, only 10 were printed with diamond versions.   You can find many examples of Whitman multi-packs that contain diamond versions for this timeframe.  I suspect that eventually it will be documented that every diamond comic in this timeframe was found in a Whitman multipack.  But what about the opposite?  You would have a harder time finding examples of diamond comics that can't be documented to exist (Yet! I think all will be documented eventually) in Whitman multipacks.   If these diamond versions where Marvel's direct editions, why are there titles with none at all, or why the titles with so few issues?  I think the answer is because Whitman was the driving force for the production of the diamond versions.  If Whitman didn't order them, they weren't published.  

These are very good questions!

I had shot my hands/keyboard off on a response full of theories at first, but then I took a step back to check some facts, and here's an edited version with as much speculation filtered out as I can manage...

I'll think on your question(s) here and see what I can remember and/or dig up, but my gut instict is that there was more than one reason and more than a few factors behind these inconsistencies. And a big reason I say that is that when I've talked to people that were there, they describe a pretty hectic scenario involving lots of cokeheads working on tight deadlines. The transition didn't happen overnight, mistakes were made (there are direct versions that accidentally ran with the Curtis insignia for example), and not every title followed suit right away or across the board. Some titles just didn't get direct versions for "reasons." For example, Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu, Curtis distributed exclusively. It's almost unthinkable now, but X-Men actually sold pretty terribly until the very late 1970s. Many issues that were put out in the 1970s were reprints of previous stories thrown together at literally the last hour (the #1 reason for this being that someone in the supply chain missed a deadline, so a substitution had to be made). Another thing that was happening then is that some of the first speciality comic book shops wouldn't necessarily sell the titles they got right away. So they'd report low sales when in reality the comics simply hadn't gone up on the shelf in the first place, until after their sales were reported; this happened most notoriously with Howard the Duck. Also, 1977 of all years was by far the most hectic. Think of 1977 as direct versions 1.0; there were a lot of bugs. It's pretty common knowledge now and has been already pointed out in this thread that retailers were scanning the wrong barcodes in the multipacks, others were returning unsold direct inventory for the higher newsstand wholesale rate, and all of the other things that had to be learned the hard way in a turbulent summer (throw the release of frickin' Star Wars into it just for fun) leading ultimately to no UPCs, Spidey heads, etc.

What I admit I'm a little unclear on still is the nitty gritty details of the arrangements between Marvel, Whitman, and Western. Whitman was a subsidiary of Western. Whitman accounted for less than half of Western's revenue, as Western also did lots of commercial printing and had its own board game operation that was much bigger than comics in and of itself. I've read and I've been told that Whitman didn't have a license to print Marvel titles; I believe all Marvel titles were printed by World Color Press while Western printed DC and Dell / Gold Key. But they obviously distributed Marvel titles too through Whitman, and I'm not sure how exactly that inventory would have (at least in Marvel's case) flowed from World Color to Whitman under the roof of Western, a direct competitor. To ask it more directly, "direct" circulation was from who to who? World Color to Whitman? World Color to another distributor (such as Sea Gate) that stores could order from? Both? That front is where I'm still seeking some answers. But to speak to your theory a bit, I'm all but certain that it wasn't Western/Whitman that was printing or not printing Marvel titles based on sales. Those calls would have logically come from Marvel, though obviously informed a great deal by what Whitman was selling or not selling, but presumably also based on what was happening through third-party distrubutors, since World Color didn't distribute and Western didn't print Marvel. Complicated stuff, ha.

I'm loving this dicussion, though, and happy to be challenged on what I'm pretty darn sure I know, but not necessarily 100.0% right on. I'll take a big fat L as graciously as I possibly can the day someone shows me a third version of a Marvel comic that was for direct distribution either specifically for multipacks or specifically not for multipacks, or if someone can absolutely confirm that Whitman was the only multipack game in town (that appears to be debunked pretty definitively by your post above), or if someone can absolutely confirm that multipacks were the only form of direct distribution in 1977-1979 (I mean, we know there were comic book stores, but it doesn't break spacetime to imagine them all ordering newsstand copies through Curtis for the first few years; extremely unlikely but theoretically in the ballpark of plausible). But I grew up in print shops and comic book stores and I've been obsessing over this stuff since 1988 or so.

And hey, it's still fascinating.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Skwerl
I will edit this forever...

[Skwerl]

One other little thing that has chewed at my brain for decades... I have newsstand issues that I bought off comic book stores' shelves as late as the mid-1980s that got there via direct distribution. This is a bit outside of the focus of this thread that I've already shamelessly hijacked, but I'm pretty sure that if someone in a warehouse was short on direct inventory but had an excess of newsstand inventory, or vice versa... they probably wouldn't have been fired for sliding a pallet across an invisible line to get through the day. For whatever that's worth.