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Peroxide for Whitening Books... Probably a No Go
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Started by Beyonder123,

18 posts in this topic

joeypost

joeypost

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On 10/31/2022 at 11:56 PM, Beyonder123 said:

Just saw this video, and with the current hotness in comic cleaning being peroxide use, this seems like something more people should know about.

Tldr; peroxide weakens paper fibers in comics

The means people will go to scam have no boundaries. 

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Beyonder123

Beyonder123

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On 11/1/2022 at 9:43 AM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Immacuclean works for me, better than steaming actually. Doesn't really help much with foxing or any serious staining though.

What's actually in immacuclean? Or is it top secret?

 

On 11/1/2022 at 8:15 AM, dover said:

Watching the FB groups showing how they are doing this just terrifies me. I expect to see my books start to fall apart in the holder at some point. Or do a Thanos finger-snap and turn to dust.

 

Same. It seems that just blue light doesn't seem to do any damage though. Hopefully CGC is alert when it comes to checking if books have had peroxide used on them.

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Sauce Dog

Sauce Dog

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Here's the thing with all these new people trying out these techniques, they are only learning them from other comic fans and 99.9% of the people jumping into stain removal are only reading a certain book or visiting a select few FB groups...none of them are trying to actually read the academic industry stuff on actual conservation. What that means is you have all these people explicitly doing 'conservation' that only amounts to short term visual changes in order to get a grade bump and then flip the book (and make no mistake, they ain't aiming for conservation - they all talk about dodging that designation and getting a universal blue label). NONE of them actually know the essential treatment parameters to consider when using hydrogen peroxide that would actually CONSERVE THE BOOK. Few are doing work that will conserve the book for the longterm - they just want that grade bump in the CGC case and once its in there who cares what happens to the materials down the years.

The majority of actual paper conservationists (in museums and other institutions) do not typically use bleaching agents on materials, those that do use hydrogen peroxide (the most popular bleaching agent, followed by light bleaching and then sodium borohydride) use a concentration between 0.5 and 3.0% (I've seen some comic people talk about using up to 20%!). However, the one thing the vast majority of them agree on is pre-treatment and post-treatment steps are mandatory! These are two things I have never seen brought up in any of the comic resources on stain removal (I have the books and am part of the groups) - the comic amateurs are just doing peroxide treatments (either full or localized via the HOP method) and leaving it at that! No deacidify, no resizing, nothing...so you now have paper that looks better but is going to be susceptible to the common concerns in the industry; brittleness, iron ions, short fibre pulp, sizing loss, lignin, color reversion etc... 

I experimented with lightening/peroxide as well, but I also made sure to read as much actual academic work on the matter as possible and found it was WAY out of my pay grade to do correctly if I was going to be honest about it. This is literally stuff best left to pros. I can still do actual conservation, but I limit myself to the stuff I know 100% is not going to damage the book down the road - I aim for an actual conservation label in my work, not try to game the system. 



As Helen Burgess said (the conservation scientist, not the actress) regarding such bleaching agents: 

Quote

"It is difficult to conceive of a process which has more potential for the sheer destruction of artifacts."

 

Edited by Sauce Dog
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Stronguy

Stronguy

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Unfortunately I'm the guy who let the genie out of the bottle.  I was on a professional pressing FB group and posted the preliminary results of an experiment I did with various light sources and chemicals.  When I posted it I left a HUGE disclaimer saying this was in no way a test of what happens to the actual paper, just what it does to the appearance.  Within 6 weeks it was viral and in a freaking book.

That being said, at this point I have done a considerable amount on academic research on peroxide and paper.  It is certainly not taboo in the paper conservation community but, as Sauce Dog said, there are some key before and after things that need to be done.  Alas, 99% of the yahoos doing this are only going for the aesthetic component with absolutely no consideration nor concern for what it's doing to the longevity of the book.  For that reason I stopped referencing any work I do with it. 

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Stronguy

Stronguy

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On 11/1/2022 at 12:10 PM, Beyonder123 said:

What's actually in immacuclean? Or is it top secret?

Rick is really up front about what's in it.  It's just a surfactant that helps lift off dirt and other substances.  As he put it once, "It's a soap that does a horrible job cleaning your hands."  There is no bleaching agent in it at all.  All it does is allow dirt to be lifted off.

There are a couple of drawbacks and they have to be taken into consideration when you're using it.
1) It's really strong and needs to be diluted to 2%-3% or even less.  But that means you're applying 97%-98% water to the surface of the paper and that creates its own problems.
2) Per Rick, it is a chelating agent and bonds to metals (making them easier to remove).  Now, what is in red and yellow ink... metal, that's right.  Thus, a heavy application of Immacuclean that gets through the gloss and contacts the ink can (but not always) cause some color to lift off.
3) It suspends some of that nasty spoon that can dry on your book, leaving streaks unless you clean it off thoroughly.

I have used it many, many times and it takes a lot of practice to get right.  When it works, it works great.  What I've found it works best on is oxidation.  It will pick up the oxidation like nothing else.  Unfortunately, unless you clean the book over and over again, you get oxidation streaks.  It's not something I recommend unless you have a lot of experience with it.

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joeypost

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On 11/7/2022 at 6:47 PM, Stronguy said:

Rick is really up front about what's in it.  It's just a surfactant that helps lift off dirt and other substances.  As he put it once, "It's a soap that does a horrible job cleaning your hands."  There is no bleaching agent in it at all.  All it does is allow dirt to be lifted off.

There are a couple of drawbacks and they have to be taken into consideration when you're using it.
1) It's really strong and needs to be diluted to 2%-3% or even less.  But that means you're applying 97%-98% water to the surface of the paper and that creates its own problems.
2) Per Rick, it is a chelating agent and bonds to metals (making them easier to remove).  Now, what is in red and yellow ink... metal, that's right.  Thus, a heavy application of Immacuclean that gets through the gloss and contacts the ink can (but not always) cause some color to lift off.
3) It suspends some of that nasty spoon that can dry on your book, leaving streaks unless you clean it off thoroughly.

I have used it many, many times and it takes a lot of practice to get right.  When it works, it works great.  What I've found it works best on is oxidation.  It will pick up the oxidation like nothing else.  Unfortunately, unless you clean the book over and over again, you get oxidation streaks.  It's not something I recommend unless you have a lot of experience with it.

There are other ways to remove surface dirt and oxidation without anything wet being used on the book. 

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Stronguy

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On 11/8/2022 at 9:31 AM, joeypost said:

There are other ways to remove surface dirt and oxidation without anything wet being used on the book. 

Of course.  I was only talking about the application of Immacuclean to cleaning.  I've tested it on non-paper stuff too and it works better than almost anything for picking up schmutz -- that's the nature of a surfactant.  But even the best dry cleaning techniques tend to leave a little something behind that's why wet cleaning is considered the best overall for paper.  However, I wouldn't classify wiping a book with something barely damp as wet cleaning per-se nor would I say it's dry cleaning.

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Ewan Murphy

Ewan Murphy

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On 11/4/2022 at 3:46 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Here's the thing with all these new people trying out these techniques, they are only learning them from other comic fans and 99.9% of the people jumping into stain removal are only reading a certain book or visiting a select few FB groups...none of them are trying to actually read the academic industry stuff on actual conservation. What that means is you have all these people explicitly doing 'conservation' that only amounts to short term visual changes in order to get a grade bump and then flip the book (and make no mistake, they ain't aiming for conservation - they all talk about dodging that designation and getting a universal blue label). NONE of them actually know the essential treatment parameters to consider when using hydrogen peroxide that would actually CONSERVE THE BOOK. Few are doing work that will conserve the book for the longterm - they just want that grade bump in the CGC case and once its in there who cares what happens to the materials down the years.

The majority of actual paper conservationists (in museums and other institutions) do not typically use bleaching agents on materials, those that do use hydrogen peroxide (the most popular bleaching agent, followed by light bleaching and then sodium borohydride) use a concentration between 0.5 and 3.0% (I've seen some comic people talk about using up to 20%!). However, the one thing the vast majority of them agree on is pre-treatment and post-treatment steps are mandatory! These are two things I have never seen brought up in any of the comic resources on stain removal (I have the books and am part of the groups) - the comic amateurs are just doing peroxide treatments (either full or localized via the HOP method) and leaving it at that! No deacidify, no resizing, nothing...so you now have paper that looks better but is going to be susceptible to the common concerns in the industry; brittleness, iron ions, short fibre pulp, sizing loss, lignin, color reversion etc... 

I experimented with lightening/peroxide as well, but I also made sure to read as much actual academic work on the matter as possible and found it was WAY out of my pay grade to do correctly if I was going to be honest about it. This is literally stuff best left to pros. I can still do actual conservation, but I limit myself to the stuff I know 100% is not going to damage the book down the road - I aim for an actual conservation label in my work, not try to game the system. 



As Helen Burgess said (the conservation scientist, not the actress) regarding such bleaching agents: 

Wow, what a comprehensive response! I believe that we have a lot of rumors and manipulative advice, precisely because this topic is not sufficiently studied today. Currently, I am studying publishing and printing. Therefore, I want to understand this topic as best as possible, and your answer pushed me to look for information in a slightly different direction. Recently, I found the site https://www.aresearchguide.com/edubirdie-review.html where I read a review on Edubirdie. Then I decided that I would request help in writing about similar techniques. There is really little information, and there is not enough time to check its veracity. And as you said, it's really expensive and time-consuming..

 

Wow, what a comprehensive response! I believe that we have a lot of rumors and manipulative advice, precisely because this topic is not sufficiently studied today.

Edited by Ewan Murphy
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Randall Dowling

Randall Dowling

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On 5/13/2023 at 4:33 PM, Ewan Murphy said:

Wow, what a comprehensive response! I believe that we have a lot of rumors and manipulative advice, precisely because this topic is not sufficiently studied today.

What are you talking about?  None of this is new.  People have been doing various "whitening" treatments and other restorative attempts since the beginning of comic collecting.  Just because these techniques are new to you and/or a few others, doesn't mean they haven't been around for a very long time.

There are proper experts that spend all day, every day, studying the behavior of various newsprint and cover stock, looking at how it behaves with different treatments.  In other words, professionals.  It's their job and they specialize in restoration.  And then there are a bunch of chumpy clowns trying to trick collectors out of their money with a fake high grade book that they doctored, usually badly.  All in an effort to "get rich quick" no matter what.  None of this is new either.

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Old Fashion PB and J

Old Fashion PB and J

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On 5/16/2023 at 1:11 PM, JollyComics said:

I have seen people are using it on YouTube and other social medias but it's always a chance to get the restoration label.

I am in the groups as well, I don't use the above mentioned product. I learn a bit about pressing and working out certain flaws, but I am not on the wagon for straight washing comics. That said there have been many cases recently of people getting up to 75% of a submission back as plod which they immediately blame on the product or cgc. Likely they are just amateurs trying to make books something they aren't meant to be. 

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