Newsstand Copies. 3 3

[wytshus]

Quote

but two slots for the same book and naming one newsstand just because?!

 

It's what I was told to do.

 

Mine is not to reason why.....

[Iconic1s]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:47 AM, wytshus said:

 

It's what I was told to do.

 

Mine is not to reason why.....

Not blaming you at all, seriously!

I know you are just the messenger.

Here’s just an example of a Custom Set and then I’ll just stop…

Notice multiple copies of the same book with custom slot names to suit the owner’s (mine) intention.

I think this makes a lot more sense than two slots for the same Comic ID book in ‘competitive’ sets especially when someone can put a direct in the ‘newsstand’ slot (and vice versa) that was created.  Just super weird.  Take care and good luck!

[Microchip]

@valiantman will the newsstand books be included as a CGC label, like Signature, Restored, Qualified in your database?

[valiantman]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:12 PM, Microchip said:

@valiantman will the newsstand books be included as a CGC label, like Signature, Restored, Qualified in your database?

If CGC will identify the newsstand books separately, they'll show up in the CGCdata website just like UK Editions do now.

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/title/:New:Teen:Titans:/desc/no/issue/2/comicyearend/1980/label/all/orderby/year/variants/yes/

If they keep the "newsstand edition" notation in the Pedigree field, they won't show up at all... unless they make all Pedigree data show up in the census for the first time.

EDIT: ... or if they do the extra steps in programming the CGC Census to pull the newsstand numbers from the Pedigree field, then the CGC Census will show the right numbers (as CGC Mike suggests below).

Edited March 2, 2023 by valiantman

[Microchip]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:20 PM, valiantman said:

If CGC will identify the newsstand books separately, they'll show up in the CGCdata website just like UK Editions do now.

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/title/:New:Teen:Titans:/desc/no/issue/2/comicyearend/1980/label/all/orderby/year/variants/yes/

If they keep the "newsstand edition" notation in the Pedigree field, they won't show up at all... unless they make all Pedigree data show up in the census for the first time.

So if it's in the pedigree field, e.g non existent in the data (currently) for you to work with.   This whole exercise will be utterly without population numbers to support it.    

@CGC Mike can you check this please?

 

 

 

[CGC Mike]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:34 PM, Microchip said:

So if it's in the pedigree field, e.g non existent in the data (currently) for you to work with.   This whole exercise will be utterly without population numbers to support it.    

@CGC Mike can you check this please?

 

 

 

I am bumping an e-mail with upper management about this.

[Microchip]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:44 PM, CGC Mike said:

I am bumping an e-mail with upper management about this.

Much appreciated 

[valiantman]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:42 AM, Iconic1s said:

Herein lies the problem. Unless CGC had recognized these books in the Census from day one (which they didn’t), the GRADED number of newsstands will NEVER be accurately known. All this discussion about points is based only on people’s opinions and guesses in regard to how rare a book ‘might’ be.

There will be a "range of possibilities", though, which will be somewhat accurate.  Let me explain...

Comparing "newsstands graded since September 2022 to all copies graded since January 2000" would be worthless... I agree.

However, comparing "newsstands graded since September 2022 to non-newsstands graded since September 2022" would actually give a HIGH estimate for newsstand percentage. There has been MORE incentive to get newsstands graded since September 2022 than incentive to have direct editions graded since September 2022.

So, let's say that a book has had 100 direct editions and 50 newsstands graded since September 2022. That's 33% newsstand... and... it's probably TOO HIGH at 33%.  There was more reason to have newsstand graded.

The overall rate might be 2,000 graded since January 2000 and 50 newsstands, which is 2.4%... and completely worthless.  But 33% is too high, so we can at least know the newsstand percentage is under 33%, and definitely higher than 2.4% by a long shot.

That's not a completely unlimited number of possible values. It's reasonable to estimate 30%, until we see years of books to compare. We also know there's no reason to think it's 50% or higher, when the extra incentive could only get the book to 33%.

[Microchip]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:48 PM, valiantman said:

However, comparing "newsstands graded since September 2022 to non-newsstands graded since September 2022" would actually give a HIGH estimate for newsstand percentage. There has been MORE incentive to get newsstands graded since September 2022 than incentive to have direct editions graded since September 2022.

From my vantage, this phenomena is seen across all books.  The higher grade copies of books seem to get subbed first, in an effort to get the best grading outcome.   Is this consistent with what you've seen through the years?   This always initially distorts the numbers, in terms of average grade for a book in the wild, and the overall numbers out there.

Buying books before 2010, no one thought buying high grade SA,BA books was a big deal.   A lot of those population numbers in the top grades have stalled for years now, and people see HG copies as unobtainable.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Microchip

[CGC Mike]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:20 PM, valiantman said:

If CGC will identify the newsstand books separately, they'll show up in the CGCdata website just like UK Editions do now.

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/title/:New:Teen:Titans:/desc/no/issue/2/comicyearend/1980/label/all/orderby/year/variants/yes/

If they keep the "newsstand edition" notation in the Pedigree field, they won't show up at all... unless they make all Pedigree data show up in the census for the first time.

The newsstands that we originally identified based on a paper or price difference (not many) has "newsstand" in the variant field, which generates a separate comic ID number in our system. When we recently started identifying all newsstands, it was not feasible to create separate comic ID's for every one (thousands), so we put "newsstand" in the pedigree field (which does not need a separate comic ID number). 

 This is a similar situation to the foreign comics; the census is not going to reflect either until we finish revamping that section of the website. When we do, the census will pull newsstand data from the pedigree field and foreigns from the foreign field/country. 

On a side note:

We are seeing some movement on the programming side, so we hope to see them populate on the census soon.

[Qalyar]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:56 AM, CGC Mike said:

When we recently started identifying all newsstands, it was not feasible to create separate comic ID's for every one (thousands), so we put "newsstand" in the pedigree field (which does not need a separate comic ID number).

This is extremely disappointing and feel contrary to the original announcement on the issue.

[valiantman]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:56 AM, CGC Mike said:

On 3/1/2023 at 8:20 PM, valiantman said:

If CGC will identify the newsstand books separately, they'll show up in the CGCdata website just like UK Editions do now.

http://cgcdata.com/cgc/search/title/:New:Teen:Titans:/desc/no/issue/2/comicyearend/1980/label/all/orderby/year/variants/yes/

If they keep the "newsstand edition" notation in the Pedigree field, they won't show up at all... unless they make all Pedigree data show up in the census for the first time.

The newsstands that we originally identified based on a paper or price difference (not many) has "newsstand" in the variant field, which generates a separate comic ID number in our system. When we recently started identifying all newsstands, it was not feasible to create separate comic ID's for every one (thousands), so we put "newsstand" in the pedigree field (which does not need a separate comic ID number). 

 This is a similar situation to the foreign comics; the census is not going to reflect either until we finish revamping that section of the website. When we do, the census will pull newsstand data from the pedigree field and foreigns from the foreign field/country. 

On a side note:

We are seeing some movement on the programming side, so we hope to see them populate on the census soon.

@CGC Mike - that makes sense to me. They'll have to program some extra steps to pull out the "Newsstand" notation from the Pedigree field, but that field is so rarely used (across nine million slabs on the CGC Census and more than ten million graded books) that the "Pedigree" field will essentially become the "Newsstand" field with a few pedigree notations (very rarely) also included, without having to add a separate Comic ID number in the system, and without having to change the number of fields in the table. Plus, there aren't many (if any) CGC-recognized Pedigree books that would even have a Direct Edition, so the Pedigree field has always been a "Newsstand" field, plus a notation of provenance, when you think about it. 

I'm hopeful that we will get exactly what we hope to see in the CGC Census from the programming movement you mentioned, and the CGCdata.com website that I have run for 20 years will be able to show us what the numbers are "Since September 2022" anytime, as a starting point for when the newsstand notation became the standard.

Edited March 2, 2023 by valiantman

[valiantman]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:00 PM, Microchip said:

From my vantage, this phenomena is seen across all books.  The higher grade copies of books seem to get subbed first, in an effort to get the best grading outcome.   Is this consistent with what you've seen through the years?   This always initially distorts the numbers, in terms of average grade for a book in the wild, and the overall numbers out there.

Buying books before 2010, no one thought buying high grade SA,BA books was a big deal.   A lot of those population numbers in the top grades have stalled for years now, and people see HG copies as unobtainable.

Absolutely! 

The higher grades are graded first, across all books, all years. As the number of graded copies increases, the average grade decreases.

There's no reason to think that the average grade for ALL raw books from 1963 wouldn't be around 3.5 to 4.0... it's just that there's not much reason to submit lower grades to CGC unless it's a key issue. The raw books are "out there" and they're likely in the exact same average condition as the keys.

Edited March 2, 2023 by valiantman

[Iconic1s]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:48 PM, valiantman said:

There will be a "range of possibilities", though, which will be somewhat accurate.  Let me explain...

Comparing "newsstands graded since September 2022 to all copies graded since January 2000" would be worthless... I agree.

However, comparing "newsstands graded since September 2022 to non-newsstands graded since September 2022" would actually give a HIGH estimate for newsstand percentage. There has been MORE incentive to get newsstands graded since September 2022 than incentive to have direct editions graded since September 2022.

So, let's say that a book has had 100 direct editions and 50 newsstands graded since September 2022. That's 33% newsstand... and... it's probably TOO HIGH at 33%.  There was more reason to have newsstand graded.

The overall rate might be 2,000 graded since January 2000 and 50 newsstands, which is 2.4%... and completely worthless.  But 33% is too high, so we can at least know the newsstand percentage is under 33%, and definitely higher than 2.4% by a long shot.

That's not a completely unlimited number of possible values. It's reasonable to estimate 30%, until we see years of books to compare. We also know there's no reason to think it's 50% or higher, when the extra incentive could only get the book to 33%.

I definitely agree that there are a "range of possibilities" and also appreciate that you have been looking at these numbers way longer than I ever have.  Isn't it also possible that a currently low census Modern (for example) could see a sudden rush of submissions of Newsstands due to this new policy?  Meaning that perhaps documented Newsstands are suddenly more common in the Census than their Direct counterparts.

Based on all these possible variables, my initial issue was that it appeared at first that CGC was going to assign Newsstands extra points in the competitive Registry even in light of this "range of possibilities."  That to me seemed very arbitrary.  As someone that never intends to collect Newsstands (nothing against anyone that does) it also feels unfair that they would be considered variants when the indicia is the same... this would give anyone that is a Newsstand collector an immediate edge.

If I understand correctly now they will have the same Comic ID/same points but extra slots will still be created named "Newsstand" to enter Newsstands (even though either a Newsstand or Direct could be entered there).  That also seems a little out there to me, as now you need two copies of each book to be 100% complete.

Don't get me wrong, I am all about the annotation going somewhere, just not breaking these out separately and calling them a different book (or awarding extra points) for the purposes of COMPETITION.  Break them out in the Census all day long for all I care, just don't mess with sets as mentioned above.

To be very honest I really only care about a couple sets (really one) that I've worked really hard on and which I take a lot of pride in, and that is the only reason I am speaking up at all about this subject.  I've come to peace with the fact that as soon as a slot is added for a Newsstand that I will wave goodbye to that set.  I've started focusing more on a Custom Set for those books where I have also been able to add books of my choosing that are related to that storyline.  The competitive Registry has been fun and has encouraged me to build a complete set, but I have to draw the line when it comes to collecting something I personally don't care about to compete there.  I get it, if the new standard is you MUST collect both to have a chance then that's just the way it's going to be.  The Registry belongs to CGC and if they decide that approach is in the best interest of their business plan then the competitive Registry is no longer a place for me.  No hard feelings. 

 

 

 

[valiantman]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:18 AM, Iconic1s said:

If I understand correctly now they will have the same Comic ID/same points but extra slots will still be created named "Newsstand" to enter Newsstands (even though either a Newsstand or Direct could be entered there).  That also seems a little out there to me, as now you need two copies of each book to be 100% complete.

I don't know how they'll handle it in the CGC Registry, but if there's no reason you have to have both the "U.S." and "U.K." editions for 100% completion for a set from the 1980s (like New Teen Titans), then I don't know why you'd have to have both the "U.S. direct" and "U.S. newsstand" editions for 100% completion on that same set.

EDIT: I just looked and I don't see the U.K. editions in the New Teen Titans set, but those were printed at the same time, with the same interior pages, and the only difference is on the cover (and the original distribution). It shouldn't be necessary to have a U.S. edition to complete a New Teen Titans set (because the U.K. edition is not a reprint), but it shouldn't be required to use both a U.S. and a U.K. edition to complete the set either. In my opinion, a set at 100% should be "one of each issue", but not necessarily "one of each version of each issue".

Edited March 2, 2023 by valiantman

[valiantman]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:24 PM, Le Chat Noir said:

Only thought is that the # of newsstands will be understated, since this only took effect this year...

It's unlikely everyone will resubmit their newsstands just to have them recategorized.

If you use the September 2022 starting date (which is possible on CGCdata.com), then newsstands will be overstated, since there will be a rush of CGC newsstands graded since September 2022 and just a normal amount of direct editions.

[Iconic1s]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:47 AM, wytshus said:

Quote

but two slots for the same book and naming one newsstand just because?!

 

It's what I was told to do.

 

Mine is not to reason why.....

@valiantman this is what leads me to believe that you will need both copies to be 100% complete. The entire conversation started on page 1 of this thread and ended at the top of page 2 with this quoted selection. This made me believe there would be two slots for the same Comic ID where requested and that one would be called Newsstand.  I really hope I have misunderstood but I don’t think I did.

There was also mentioned on another thread where someone had one of their sets suddenly filled with CPV slots.  I don’t know if they would be looked at the same as Newsstands for the purposes of slot creation but that contributed to my belief (along with the above conversation) that this would be what is about to happen.  

[valiantman]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:18 AM, Iconic1s said:

@valiantman this is what leads me to believe that you will need both copies to be 100% complete. The entire conversation started on page 1 of this thread and ended at the top of page 2 with this quoted selection. This made me believe there would be two slots for the same Comic ID where requested and that one would be called Newsstand.  I really hope I have misunderstood but I don’t think I did.

There was also mentioned on another thread where someone had one of their sets suddenly filled with CPV slots.  I don’t know if they would be looked at the same as Newsstands for the purposes of slot creation but that contributed to my belief (along with the above conversation) that this would be what is about to happen.  

From the software side of the equation, anything can be programmed, so theoretically, it would be possible for whoever does the CGC Registry to set up a system where you could have...

Registry Set

Slot 1 - Book #1 - version A

Slot 2 - Book #1 - version B

Slot 3 - Book #1 - version C

Slot 4 - Book #2 - version A

Slot 5 - Book #2 - version B

Slot 6 - Book #3

... but you would only need to have 3 books to be 100% complete.

You'd need at least one Book #1, at least one Book #2, and Book #3, in any combination.

The registry scoring could be all six slots added together, but completion could be based on Book #, ignoring version/variant.

[Iconic1s]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:24 AM, valiantman said:

From the software side of the equation, anything can be programmed, so theoretically, it would be possible for whoever does the CGC Registry to set up a system where you could have...

Registry Set

Slot 1 - Book #1 - version A

Slot 2 - Book #1 - version B

Slot 3 - Book #1 - version C

Slot 4 - Book #2 - version A

Slot 5 - Book #2 - version B

Slot 6 - Book #3

... but you would only need to have 3 books to be 100% complete.

You'd need at least one Book #1, at least one Book #2, and Book #3, in any combination.

The registry scoring could be all six slots added together, but completion could be based on Book #, ignoring version/variant.

Yes, and that’s my concern. Looks like you will need two versions to be competitive, swaying the competition towards Newsstand collectors going forward.  Unless someone collects exclusively Newsstands, in which case…

… this is why I like one slot where either can be entered, as it has been.

If I want to display two versions of a book I can do that in a Custom Set.  EDIT: Or I can add pictures of both as each slot has the ability to add two pics. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Iconic1s

[Microchip]

On 3/3/2023 at 12:56 AM, CGC Mike said:

The newsstands that we originally identified based on a paper or price difference (not many) has "newsstand" in the variant field, which generates a separate comic ID number in our system. When we recently started identifying all newsstands, it was not feasible to create separate comic ID's for every one (thousands), so we put "newsstand" in the pedigree field (which does not need a separate comic ID number). 

 This is a similar situation to the foreign comics; the census is not going to reflect either until we finish revamping that section of the website. When we do, the census will pull newsstand data from the pedigree field and foreigns from the foreign field/country. 

On a side note:

We are seeing some movement on the programming side, so we hope to see them populate on the census soon.

@CGC Mike is there any update available?