Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Zonker]

But something did change as of Strange Tales #89, right? It is the first time you've shown us a "Stan Lee + Ditko" signature, and the first time we have seen a missing (presumably painted out?) Kirby + Ayers signature. 

And you say "This was Lee sending a message. Everyone else is letting me play the writer, Jack..." 
How was Jack supposed to receive this message, since I think a big point has been made over the years that Kirby rarely if ever read the books in print, so had no knowledge of how his work was changed (or co-opted, if you will) by Stan Lee or Vince Colletta or whomever.

[Mmehdy]

I agree on this "big change" and I do not want to get ahead of myself...but to me the biggest change came in the total story page count of FF1...earlier you had Marvel editions asking if readers liked the expanded stories from 7 to 10 to 15....but FF #1 was 25 pages.....that to me was the key, I do not know the page count of the All Winners Squad issues but do you know what was the last 25 page Timely/Marvel story before FF#1 in any format?

[Prince Namor]

On 12/4/2022 at 2:20 AM, Mmehdy said:

I agree on this "big change" and I do not want to get ahead of myself...but to me the biggest change came in the total story page count of FF1...earlier you had Marvel editions asking if readers liked the expanded stories from 7 to 10 to 15....but FF #1 was 25 pages.....that to me was the key, I do not know the page count of the All Winners Squad issues but do you know what was the last 25 page Timely/Marvel story before FF#1 in any format?

Human Torch #8 had a 6 part, 50 PAGE story featuring the Torch vs Subby! That was 1942!

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:31 PM, Zonker said:

But something did change as of Strange Tales #89, right? It is the first time you've shown us a "Stan Lee + Ditko" signature, and the first time we have seen a missing (presumably painted out?) Kirby + Ayers signature. 

As we'll see in August, this is just the preliminary team up with Ditko - who at this point isn't a creator - he's an artist who just follows the work he's given. 

This would back fire on Stan, as he would continue to ask Ditko for ideas on Spider-man, until Ditko had a better concept for what should happen than Stan did. 

But you'll see more of Stan's tactics next month...

On 12/3/2022 at 11:31 PM, Zonker said:

And you say "This was Lee sending a message. Everyone else is letting me play the writer, Jack..." 
How was Jack supposed to receive this message, since I think a big point has been made over the years that Kirby rarely if ever read the books in print, so had no knowledge of how his work was changed (or co-opted, if you will) by Stan Lee or Vince Colletta or whomever.

Lee wanted to partner with Kirby on the stories, for obvious reasons for Stan. He'd seen what Joe Simon did - it was pretty well known within the business - and Lee felt like he could finagle a similar work relationship.

Kirby wasn't interested. No one respected Stan Lee as a creative type. He was Goodman's nephew by marriage. What had he done? He was a nobody who was slowly going out of business for a 'Charlton'-like publisher. 

But Lee can be vindictive. And he's not going to let this go. If Jack wants to do a superhero book, he'll have to do it with Lee. 

But Lee has another problem - he has to raise his image. And he'll do that by forcing himself into some of the other books... more on this next month in a BIG way. 

Remember - at this point Jack is coming into Marvel once a week - so he DOES see what is being released and done. Stan can show him. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

For Rawhide Kid #24  - Jack Kirby does a 2 part, 13 page lead story and 5 page final story, all inked by D. Ayers..

On the splash, Kirby & Ayers is whited out, but Stan Lee's remains. 

At some point I would suspect Ayers would've definitely told Kirby what was happening...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

For Rawhide Kid #24  - Jack Kirby does a 2 part, 13 page lead story and 5 page final story, all inked by D. Ayers..

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

For Rawhide Kid #24  - Ayers signature returns for the story he pencils and inks himself... (included with Stan Lee)

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

For Rawhide Kid #24  - but disappears again for the final story, where he inks Kirby. Stan Lee actually signs the splash page TWICE!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Gunsmoke Western #66  - Jack Kirby does the cover and a 5 page story, inked by D. Ayers, and the signature is in such a weird spot (and against a blue color background - so its hard to read) that I guess Stan either misses it or decides not to mess with it - though at this point he may have not decided to completely go through with this idea. Journey Into Mystery #72, the first job of the month (V-304), is inked by George Klein, so there is no signature... Amazing Adventures #5 is Job V-307 and the first one he paints over. Gunsmoke Western #66 is next (V-313) which he doesn't do, but from Strange Tales #89 (V-318) on up, he gets the rest of them for the month... Stan signs the splash right above the main characters head against a yellow background 'by Stan Lee.'

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Gunsmoke Western #66  - Guess who ELSE does a 5 page western story in that same issue? The newest sensation in comics - the writer/artist team of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, as signed on the splash...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Amazing Adventures #5  - Jack Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils a 2 part, 13 page story for the issue, plus... wait a minute... there's no Dr. Droom story. Did Kirby decide to stop doing it? Or was he told NOT to? Droom would return next issue, drawn by PAUL REINMAN (signed), but no writer listed...  and NOT signed by Stan Lee (meaning he didn't do it...)... SOMETHING is going on...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Amazing Adventures #5  - Jack Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils a 2 part, 13 page story for the issue (all inked by D. Ayers, but missing that signature...). And the cover was taken from the Interior splash page... WHAT is going on?

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Amazing Adventures #5  - Stan would begin to use his power to make small changes in Kirby's dialogue. Not sure how much Kirby was aware of it, but the original art sleuths are out there to show exactly what was done... just small things like Lee TWICE using the phrase 'We (we're) all (are) DOOMED!' as a change to Jack's hand written dialogue in the story - once in AA #5 and the other in Strange Tales #89.

This is the small step process toward claiming 'dialogue' credit, thus '-script' credit - especially once he forbids Kirby from writing dialogue into the art - with FF #1... Stan was going to force Jack to let his Editor become the writer. 

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Amazing Adventures #5  - Steve Ditko would also have a story in this issue a 5 pager he pencils and inks... with writer unknown! 

Looking at the order of the job numbers...

JIM #72  (V-304) - George Klien inks Kirby story (no credits) - Ditko story (V-306) signed by Ditko, no writer. 

Amazing Adventures #5  (V-307) - Kirby story/Ayers inks - Stan Lee edits, whiteouts Kirby/Ayers credit + Ditko story (V-308) with just the artist signing.

Gunsmoke Western #66 (V-313) - Kirby/Ayers sig slips by - Keller and Ayers story (sigs with Lee) - Ditko story (V-312) begins the Stan Lee & Steve Ditko signature glut that we'll see over the next few months...

Strange Tales #89 (V-318) - Kirby story/Ayers inks - Stan Lee edits, whiteouts Kirby/Ayers credit + Ditko story (V-320) as Stan Lee & Steve Ditko.

Rawhide Kid V-322, V-323 -  - Kirby story/Ayers inks - Stan Lee edits, whiteouts Kirby/Ayers credit - others sign their art.

TTA #24 V-329 - Kirby story/Ayers inks - Stan Lee edits, whiteouts Kirby/Ayers credit + Ditko story (V-328) as Stan Lee & Steve Ditko.

TOS #22 V-333 - Kirby story/Ayers inks - Stan Lee edits, whiteouts Kirby/Ayers credit + Ditko story (V-309) as Stan Lee & Steve Ditko (which means this story was assigned just before the Gunsmoke Western job).

 

So it appears that after the Amazing Adventures issue, Stan decides to make some changes. It's possible he is seeing the numbers coming in from the title and it is AGAIN a popular Kirby book and he realizes, that if he doesn't take control, Kirby is going to be running the show. 

Sound far fetched? There's more proof to come, believe me...

Edited December 4, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

So stepping back...

Journey Into Mystery #72 - Kirby does the cover (we think inked by D. Ayers) and his usual 2 part, 13 page story that George Klein inks. Ayers has a few more stories he pencils for the month, so maybe Stan needed an ink job replaced. 

Part ONE: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Journey Into Mystery #72 - Kirby does the cover (we think inked by D. Ayers) and his usual 2 part, 13 page story that George Klein inks. Ayers has a few more stories he pencils for the month, so maybe Stan needed an ink job replaced. 

Part TWO: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Journey Into Mystery #72 - And Ditko has his last writer less story in this issue... though it is interesting to note that at the bottom of Page Two, the character says, "Our World is DOOMED!" 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales to Astonish #24 - Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils his usual 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by D. Ayers. Stan Lee white paints the Ayers + Kirby signature out. Stan doesn't sign the story because he doesn't discuss it ahead of time with Kirby - and he isn't comfortable yet taking credit for the writing just by making a few changes in Kirby's dialogue. He'd eventually get there though...

Part ONE: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales to Astonish #24 - Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils his usual 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by D. Ayers. Stan Lee white paints the Ayers + Kirby signature out. Stan doesn't sign the story because he doesn't discuss the story ahead of time with Kirby - and he isn't comfortable yet taking credit for the writing just by making a few changes in Kirby's dialogue. He'd eventually get there though...

Part TWO: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales to Astonish #24 - Also in this issue, Ditko pencils and inks his 5 page story with his new 'writing' partner Stan Lee.