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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back
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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales of Suspense #22 - Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils his usual 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by D. Ayers. Stan Lee white paints the Ayers + Kirby signature out. Stan doesn't sign the story because he doesn't discuss it ahead of time with Kirby - and he isn't comfortable yet taking credit for the writing just by making a few changes in Kirby's dialogue. He'd eventually get there though...

Part ONE: 

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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales of Suspense #22 - Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils his usual 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by D. Ayers. Stan Lee white paints the Ayers + Kirby signature out. Stan doesn't sign the story because he doesn't discuss it ahead of time with Kirby - and he isn't comfortable yet taking credit for the writing just by making a few changes in Kirby's dialogue. He'd eventually get there though...

Part TWO: 

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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Tales of Suspense #22 - also in the issue, Ditko pencils and inks his 5 page story with new writing partner Stan Lee! Another twist ending type of story, popularized by EC, the character in it is having writers block from having 'written 'em all', even though his 'boss' wants him to come up with 'a new type of fantasy story'. 

Hmmm...

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On 12/3/2022 at 9:39 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Gunsmoke Western #66 (V-313) - Kirby/Ayers sig slips by - Keller and Ayers story (sigs with Lee) - Ditko story (V-312) begins the Stan Lee & Steve Ditko signature glut that we'll see over the next few months...

 

What's the theory on how the "By Stan Lee & Ditko" thing actually works at this point in time?

Was it:

a) Ditko starts to tell his own stories for the first time, maybe kicked off with a story conference with Stan (or maybe not), and maybe with some dialogue work after-the-fact by Stan (or maybe not)?  We know Ditko will be capable of creating whole stories by himself, but is this the beginning of that? ...or...

b) Ditko continues to draw scripts from writer unknown, as we have seen in most of the previous Ditko Marvel jobs?  And Stan then does just enough dialogue tweaks to justify adding his name to the credits? ...or...

c) something else?

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On 12/3/2022 at 5:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Gunsmoke Western #66  - Guess who ELSE does a 5 page western story in that same issue? The newest sensation in comics - the writer/artist team of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, as signed on the splash...

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Here is a thought Steve Ditko sends in story with his signature and Stan later adds his name knowing that Ditko would never check… it appears Stan’s signature was done after Ditko ……

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Well, as we're going to see next month... this team up is a concerted effort by Stan to join the Sci-Fi/Monster genre that has been a success for 3 years at Marvel and make his name known. I believe it's a legitimate team up - Ditko has simply always worked from what his editor or writer gave him, though IT IS possible he came up with some ideas on his own to start. But make no mistake - this team up is a concerted effort by Stan to join the Sci-Fi/Monster genre that has been a success for 3 years at Marvel and make his name known. That will jump out starkly starting next month...

Obviously, other than sales, SOMETHING has alerted him to the popularity of Kirby as a creator (and even Ditko's work at Charlton), and rather than just accept his fate - that Marvel was either going to succeed thanks to Kirby or fail because Lee couldn't save it - he decides to take matters into his own hands and become the gatekeeper of what does and doesn't get released. 

He WILL literally force the issue.

He'll still print his dumb blonde comics - its an easy paycheck - Hartley and Goldberg do all the work - and then he'll slowly turn each of the monster books into a Stan Lee & Jack Kirby production, of superheroes, only IF Kirby allows Lee to be a part of each new hero. It may never even be discussed - Stan may not even consciously think of it in these terms - but it's exactly what he DOES. 

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On 12/4/2022 at 10:26 AM, Zonker said:

b) Ditko continues to draw scripts from writer unknown, as we have seen in most of the previous Ditko Marvel jobs?  And Stan then does just enough dialogue tweaks to justify adding his name to the credits? ...or...

Well, we know that some (possibly most) of the plots credited to Lee are plots he recycled from old Timely/Atlas scripts. Scripts HE didn't write. There've been quite a few discovered (I even showcased some here) and I expect an intensive study would turn up a very high percentage. (Maybe after I retire I'll make that an added hobby). According to Ditko, Lee would sometimes give him an old --script and tell him to rework it in his own way rather than following the full --script.

Also... Ditko was pretty open about who did what... if he was simply the artist on something and followed what was given, he would say so, and if HE made certain decisions, he had no problem saying it. 

Edited by Prince Namor
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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

DC Comics continued to put out books that would influence the hobby for decades - Flash #123, featuring 'The Flash of Two Worlds' (writer Gardner Fox and artist Carmine Infantino) would go on to be the Winner of the 1961 "Best Cover," "Best Single Issue," and "Best Story" for Alter Ego's 1st annual Alley Awards at the end of the year. 

Introducing Earth-2 as a home for DC's Golden Age heroes, they could now cross over and interact with their modernized counterparts, much to the delight of the Alter Ego fan base and many others and set a precedent that's been copied by other creators ever since...

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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

DC Comics also added the Silver Age version of the Atom in Showcase #34 this month from writer Gardner Fox and artist Gil Kane. The following year the Atom would get his own series, and even though it was never a huge seller for DC, it would feature some of Gil Kane's most memorable work as inked by Murphy Anderson. And the Atom would play a big role in the history of the DC Universe!

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

For August, Marvel would release 17 titles to the newsstand (Now averaging 10.5 titles per month). This appears to be beefed up by the 1st day of the month and the last day of the month both falling on a newsstand day. Because of that we'd get TWO Journey Into Mystery's for the month even though they're still 30 days apart. 

Stan Lee would write 11 of the titles for the month.

Despite Marvel struggling… It would be Lee’s best payday since 1956… Joan would be delighted.

We’re going to try and keep these in order, as it does tell a story…

 

Kathy #13  - with art by Stan Goldberg. 

Life With Millie #13  - with art by Stan Goldberg 

Patsy Walker #97  -  with Al Hartley art 

Kid Colt Outlaw #101  - 2 stories with Jack Keller and 1 with D. Ayers

Millie the Model #105  - with art by Stan Goldberg 

Linda Carter, Student Nurse #2  -  with Al Hartley art 

Fantastic Four #1 - with art by Jack Kirby

Love Romances #96 - 1 story with Kirby! 2 stories with Bob Forgione and one unknown

Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 - 5 stories with Steve Ditko

Gunsmoke Western #67 - 2 stories with Jack Keller, 1 with Kirby and 1 with Ayers

Teen-Age Romance #84 -  2 stories with Kirby! 1 story with Don Heck and one unknown

 

 

The other 6 are:

Amazing Adventures #6   

Journey Into Mystery #73

Tales to Astonish #25

Tales of Suspense #23

Strange Tales #90   

Journey Into Mystery #74

Edited by Prince Namor
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In order of how jobs were assigned (with newsstand release dates)

 

Kathy #13 (V-316-317+327+331)——————-———— 08/01/1961

Amazing Adventures #6 (V-337-V-339)——————— 08/01/1961

Life with Millie #13 (V-340-341)———————— ——— 08/01/1961

=Patsy Walker #97 - (V-342-343)—————————— 08/01/1961

Journey Into Mystery #73 (V-344-V-346)—————— 08/01/1961

Life with Millie #13 (V-348-349-350)————— ——— 08/01/1961

Tales to Astonish #25 (V-351-V-354)———— ———— 08/08/1961

*Kid Colt Outlaw #101 (V-355+ others - Jack Keller)- 08/08/1961

Tales of Suspense #23 (V-356-V-359)———  ———— 08/08/1961

=Patsy Walker #97 - (V-360)————————- ———— 08/01/1961

*Kid Colt Outlaw #101 (V-361+ others - D. Ayers)—  - 08/08/1961

Strange Tales #90 (V-364-V-367)—————————— 08/08/1961

+Millie the Model #105 (V-368-369)———————   — 08/08/1961

-Linda Carter, Student Nurse #2 (V-370-371)———— 08/08/1961

Fantastic Four #1 (V-372)———————————— —— 08/08/1961

+Millie the Model #105 (V-373-V374)—————— —— 08/08/1961

*Kid Colt Outlaw #101 (V-375+ others) - Jack Keller -08/08/1961

+Millie the Model #105 (V-376)—————————-—— 08/08/1961

&Journey Into Mystery #73 (V-377-V-379)——— —— 08/31/1961

-Linda Carter, Student Nurse #2 (V-385,386,387)  — 08/08/1961

_Love Romances #96 (V-388-389) ———  ———  ——08/31/1961

Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (V-391-396)——————— 08/31/1961

_Love Romances #96 (V-400-401) ——   ————  ——08/31/1961

&Journey Into Mystery #73 (V-404)—————— ——— 08/31/1961

Gunsmoke Western #101 (V-410 - V-413)—— ———— 08/31/1961

Teen-Age Romance #84 (V-421-424) ———————— 08/31/1961

 

Seeing the order in how the job numbers are given, you can see the struggling nature of the Stan Lee titles to come up with material to fill the books. The jobs are given out over time, whereas the monster books seem to assigned and agreed upon (because most of them are Kirby) pretty easily. Stan also seems to have his ‘synopsis’ ready for Ditko with Amazing Adult Fantasy.

Cleaned up, it looks like this:

 

Kathy #13 (V-316-317+327+331)——————-———— 08/01/1961

Amazing Adventures #6 (V-337-V-339)——————— 08/01/1961

Life with Millie #13 (V-340-341) = (V-348-349-350)-08/01/1961

Patsy Walker #97 - (V-342-343)(V-360)————  —— 08/01/1961

Journey Into Mystery #73 (V-344-V-346)—————— 08/01/1961

Tales to Astonish #25 (V-351-V-354)———— ———— 08/08/1961

Kid Colt Outlaw #101 (V-355+361+375)—————— - 08/08/1961

Tales of Suspense #23 (V-356-V-359)———  ———— 08/08/1961

Strange Tales #90 (V-364-V-367)—————————— 08/08/1961

Millie the Model #105 (V-368-369)(V-373-V374)(V-376) 08/08/1961

Linda Carter, Student Nurse #2 (V-370-371)(V-385,386,387) 08/08/1961

Fantastic Four #1 (V-372)———————————— —— 08/08/1961

Journey Into Mystery #73 (V-377-V-379)(V-404)—— 08/31/1961

Love Romances #96 (V-388-389)(V-400-401) —— —08/31/1961

Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (V-391-396)——————— 08/31/1961

Gunsmoke Western #101 (V-410 - V-413)—— ———— 08/31/1961

Teen-Age Romance #84 (V-421-424) ———————— 08/31/1961

 

Somewhere between the 1st of the month and the last, Stan decides to end Amazing Adventures (and Kirby’s involvement in it) and instead change it into Amazing Adult Fantasy and use it as a place for him and Steve Ditko to share credit exclusively doing stories. We don’t have any sales data on it, but here’s what we DO know:

ALL of Kirby’s monster comics show sales, so there’s no reason to think Amazing Adventures would’ve been any different. Even if it didn’t sell as MUCH, it still had more potential than Kathy or Life with Millie or Teen-Age Romance… why kill it after just 6 issues? Linda Carter, Student Nurse would last NINE issues, and there’s no WAY that spoon sold.

But Stan was the Editor and could make those changes and DID - for his OWN needs. If Sci-fi/monster stuff was going to sell, HE was going to be a part of it’s success.

 

Unfortunately for him, the book WASN’T a seller in it’s new format - ‘The comic that respects your intelligence’ - but that’s forgotten, because of the WAY it ended with its final issue. Remember, Stan could’ve kept it going regardless… Kathy and Life with Millie were probably selling in the 100,000 to 120,000 copy range and he kept THOSE going. So it had to be a REAL stinker.

And you’ll see why…

Also, Kirby would take the bait and Fantastic Four #1 would become a reality, for the first time featuring the signature Stan Lee & Jack Kirby.

Stan would quickly turn that into three stories for the Romance books with Jack, but only one would be signed ‘Stan Lee & Jack Kirby’, the other two just showing ‘Stan Lee.’

It would be a new era beginning at Marvel, but not in the way Stan would later shape it to be.

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

August 1st, 1961's releases would feature 3 Stan Lee 'dumb blonde books' (Kathy #13, Life with Millie #13 and Patsy Walker #97) and two of Jack's books, Amazing Adventures #6 and Journey Into Mystery #73.

For Amazing Adventures #6, Kirby would do his usual cover and 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by George Klein (with no signature, so Stan could breathe easy). 

Part ONE:

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

For Amazing Adventures #6, Kirby would do his usual cover and 2 part, 13 page story, all inked by George Klein (with no signature, so Stan could breathe easy). 

At the bottom of page 7, someone says "We Are DOOMED!!"

Part TWO:

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Edited by Prince Namor
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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Amazing Adventures #6 - Steve Ditko then has his 5 page pencil and inked story, signed by him, with an added 'Stan lee' signature to let us know he was the 'writer'. As thin as some of these Marvel Ditko stories would get - 5 pages and a twist ending - they get even THINNER once Stan decides he has to 'write' them. 

I know many people romanticize this period, but seeing it in its full context...

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Amazing Adventures #6 - And finally there's a Dr. Droom story, but... it's drawn by Paul Reinman (signed)! No other signature... meaning Stan didn't write it... WHO DID? Was this an early example of Kirby doing breakdowns and story for someone else to draw?

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