Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

NOT ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

You may have heard me mention the speculation that Kirby was creating Silver Age rebirth ideas for some of the Marvel characters before FF #1... The Human Torch being one of them. There's a guy on Facebook, Steve Newton, who's done a fantastic job of putting this controversy together, with no fear of throwing in why it also might NOT be true, and I just feel... its worth looking at!

Here he explains:

Prolonged both by real life and the difficulty of putting complex almost non-linear arguments into a clear format ... the first volley in explaining why there is a case to be made that a set of at least three solo Human Torch stories preceded Fantastic Four #1, were not published, but then dug out and badly ret-conned when the FF became such a quick success.

Later posts will cover ST 101 (and how it was both edited, both visually and story-wise) to fit into the FF continuity, and ST 102 (and how Jack cannibalized the Wizard story for FF 2 because he never thought it would be separately published).

As a sidelight, this leads to a reconsideration both of the original origin sequence before its editing into FF 1 AND a different perspective on that fragment of Susan Kirby deposition transcript about Jack's original sketches of three of the four members of the Fantastic Four ...

I know this is controversial, but there are a LOT of questions in this work that -- honestly -- very few people have wanted to contend with, not the least of which is why (if I am right) neither Stan nor Jack ever came clean about it.

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

A lot of people are aware of the 'found synopsis' for Fantastic Four #1 and the controversial events surrounding it, but very few I guess have actually read it... because mostly I see clues that this was a Jack Kirby brainstorming session that Stan had the notes typed up for.

My reason for believing this is a) Ben's feelings for Sue. This was what KIRBY had wanted, NOT Stan who used to change Jack's content away from that. For whatever reason, Stan was not interested in this idea.

b) 'no one yet knows the effect cosmic rays will have in human bodies so far out in space' - if I have to explain to you that this is 100% Kirby and 0% Stan Lee, you haven't been reading their stories for the last 7 years I've been posting! Jack just DID a story where he questions cosmic rays bombarding someone in space! It came out the same week as FF #1 (but with an earlier job number).

c) the NOTE that is added about changing it to a flight to the stars, instead of Mars SOUNDS like what an EDITOR would do with a writers story - in this case Stan commenting on JACK's synopsis.

d) the origin... just read Challengers of the Unknown - we've seen this from Jack...

e) Again, Stan's note TO Jack about the Invisible Girl and the sexiness of invisibility/clothing... this is STAN making notes to JACK's STORY!

f) Stan again makes notes - the Comics Code and how they may view Johnny Storms powers...

How much clearer can it be?

Stan IS adding his imprint to the story... but this is Kirby's baby. NOT the brainchild of someone who wrote 200+ dumb blonde comics over the last decade...

It's not a very good copy of the second page, but again I think it shows Stan basically adding his thoughts to what's needed or what he thinks it needs (some of which they don't use)...

Edited December 5, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

It had to be a pretty amazing feeling... to walk into that drug store on or around 08/08/1961 and see Fantastic Four #1 on the shelf... to take it home and read that full length story... from the very cover itself, this was something different. Something more REAL. 

Let me start by saying that this is a collaborative work... Stan certainly added his ideas to this. But it wasn't done in the way he said. Everything leading up to this issue... if you read Stan's body of work, this seems nothing like it, whereas if you've been reading Jack's work, it's not far removed from what he'd been doing for the last 5 years. Yet... it was still different. 

Compared to the slick look of many if DC's books, the FF appeared to be regular people playing the part of heroes... a female front and center in regular clothes turning invisible... the Human Torch is back??? Some guy stretching... and... who's that rocky monster dude?

Some changes were made at some point with the cover, mainly having to do with the onlookers... we'd get to see the original many years later (here as a part of the first Masterworks collection).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - That's Stan's signature, and I think Jack's as well. 

This introduction of the team, over the course of 8 pages, about the max length of a typical, comic book story of the day, is mostly a perfectly paced piece... it conveys the action, the characters, the right amount of dialogue and narration... it had to be an exciting read back in the day as we were seeing these characters for the first time.

Kirby was one of those rare artists who composed the story PANEL by PANEL and you can see the talent in his work. I'm now going to have to track down that panel by panel book just to see some of these up close... I'll try and highlight a few as I see them...

Part ONE:

Edited December 5, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Just the way Jack could express a feeling with how he drew something or lit a scene... or the way he staged a panel... In neither of these are their huge action sequences and yet they are full of emotion... what Kirby could do quietly (which is under rated) or loudly (which is what is primarily focused on in his work, by Stan especially), he was a master storyteller...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Jack has often talked about how he thinks cinematically - that he's competing with movies - and you can see this in how he designs some of these panels - NOT having Ben swing his arms, shows the sheer power of his mass as the doorway smashes around him... in the next panel the cops are stationary, but Kirby adds the legs of a fleeing pedestrian to give the panel the feeling of the panic being caused - all without having to use large panels or multiple panels...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - This could just as easily come from one of his monster stories... well, let's face it, FF #1 IS a monster story, just with an interesting twist to it! 

[Zonker]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:33 AM, Prince Namor said:

ANATOMY OF A STORY

A lot of people are aware of the 'found synopsis' for Fantastic Four #1 and the controversial events surrounding it, but very few I guess have actually read it... because mostly I see clues that this was a Jack Kirby brainstorming session that Stan had the notes typed up for.

My own view at this point is that "this was a Jack Kirby / Stan Lee brainstorming session that Stan had the notes typed up for."  (FTFY) 

I don't think it is reasonable to believe this synopsis is the ground zero starting point emerging solely from Stan's brain directly to his typewriter to give to Jack to implement on the drawing board.  Your cosmic rays point is a good one-- the synopsis does indeed have more in common with the stories signed Kirby + Ayers than any of the stories signed as by Stan Lee up until now.

Some Kirby partisans have speculated this is an after-the-fact forgery by Stan to disguise him stealing credit for Kirby actually doing the entire conceptualization and plotting of FF #1.  I don't buy that either.  Stan could have done a much better job of faking a synopsis to more closely match the as-published FF #1 if that was his intention.

Instead I see this as likely evidence of one specific point in time along a lengthy process of collaboration between these 2 guys.  At this point in the planning, they are still sorting out how Invisible Girl's powers work, and the clumsy idea of a face-mask she would wear.  Significantly Stan is inviting further discussion with Jack on this question.  A latter-day forgery would probably read "I'll let you know how I decide to proceed on this, Jack."  Likewise at this point The Thing is a lot more anti-social than he would later become on the printed page.  

We'll never know how that first conversation regarding FF #1 went between Stan and Jack.  People who knew them both said they each had terrible memories.  But my view is those initial collaborations were almost certainly spoken out loud, not written down anywhere.  After all, we can certainly agree that whatever else he was, Stan Lee was a great talker!

[Mmehdy]

On 12/5/2022 at 7:00 AM, Zonker said:

My own view at this point is that "this was a Jack Kirby / Stan Lee brainstorming session that Stan had the notes typed up for."  (FTFY) 

I don't think it is reasonable to believe this synopsis is the ground zero starting point emerging solely from Stan's brain directly to his typewriter to give to Jack to implement on the drawing board.  Your cosmic rays point is a good one-- the synopsis does indeed have more in common with the stories signed Kirby + Ayers than any of the stories signed as by Stan Lee up until now.

Some Kirby partisans have speculated this is an after-the-fact forgery by Stan to disguise him stealing credit for Kirby actually doing the entire conceptualization and plotting of FF #1.  I don't buy that either.  Stan could have done a much better job of faking a synopsis to more closely match the as-published FF #1 if that was his intention.

Instead I see this as likely evidence of one specific point in time along a lengthy process of collaboration between these 2 guys.  At this point in the planning, they are still sorting out how Invisible Girl's powers work, and the clumsy idea of a face-mask she would wear.  Significantly Stan is inviting further discussion with Jack on this question.  A latter-day forgery would probably read "I'll let you know how I decide to proceed on this, Jack."  Likewise at this point The Thing is a lot more anti-social than he would later become on the printed page.  

We'll never know how that first conversation regarding FF #1 went between Stan and Jack.  People who knew them both said they each had terrible memories.  But my view is those initial collaborations were almost certainly spoken out loud, not written down anywhere.  After all, we can certainly agree that whatever else he was, Stan Lee was a great talker!

I do not buy the Human Torch before FF1 but I do see the argument on the stories themselves and it could easily have been a joint type venture, however someone would have remembered that. The synopsis in my opinion was real, but could have been altered at some time after FF1 became a hit, meaning that  this exact document could have been a recreation of the original coming from Stan's head to cement his place in history, I would not put it past him to do it. One thing for sure, this is a true collaboration and not a solo Stan Lee created synopsis. My guess is 70% Jack and 30% Stan.

[Prince Namor]

Yeah, the idea that Stan created it all and 'assigned Jack to do the art' as he testified court, is pretty silly. 

More than silly, more than highly improbable, it's just... not possible. 

I wouldn't expect most Marvel Zombies (or, well, really 95% of the population either) to have taken some form of Comparative Literature class in college, but it wouldn't be necessary anyway... just READING the comics, all done previous to FF #1, completely tells the story...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - It's possible, these 'chapters' were originally intended as a back-up feature in Amazing Adventures, to replace Dr. Droom, and this would've been the second installment. Or not, who knows?

But here in the unofficial 2nd part -  we get the 'origin' of the Fantastic Four, which somewhat mirrors the Challengers of the Unknown (they survive a plane crash in their origin, but get shot into space a few times and gain 'tempoary' super powers) - but this is a whole new thing... Kirby has been reading Sci-Fi (fantasy) and Space Race (real world) magazines and creating from it for the last 7 years... and he immediately takes this further than COTU went...

Part TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Doesn't take much of an argument to get Reed to put everyone's life in danger!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Kirby is just on top of his game - each panel just a perfect little scene... so much said in just his understated way of design... he was SO much more than just 'Action'.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - My favorite page in the whole book... the way Jack lays this out... it IS like a movie in how it really presents a sense a danger. Props also to the coloring of Stan Goldberg... he didn't get to sign his name to THIS either! (I think he also designed the FF cover logo). One of my favorite Kirby pages ever...

[Zonker]

Here's one thing that nags at me when I consider the thesis that prior to FF #1 everything signed as Kirby & Ayers was completely plotted, penciled and scripted (dialogue and captions) by Kirby:  Later in Kirby's career, when he was given complete scripting credit, he had a very distinctive fondness for the over-use of quotation marks in his dialogue:

I would always try to assume (in my head-canon) that this was Kirby translating for us some word into English from the native language of Apokolips or New Genesis.  But he also used it frequently for characters other than his otherworldly New Gods:

And in his mid-1970s return to Marvel, he was still doing it:

So why don't we see any hint of this in his Marvel stories prior to FF #1?  I can't imagine why Kirby would adopt this affectation as a writer later in life if he had consistently been scripting his characters' speeches all along?

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Kirby had 'heavies' in his work before... but, Ben Grimm WAS special. And I DO attribute some of that to Stan. As gruff as Jack was, I believe at heart he was an optimist and kind soil... Stan, for all of his 'Smilin' Stan' persona was much more a cynic with a dark heart. And HIS dialoging of Ben made him a truly tragic, yet comic figure... If I have to give him his props on one thing, I believe it was this that Stan did for the book. Ben Grimm is one of the greatest characters in the HISTORY of Marvel Comics - created by Jack Kirby, like many of the other heavies he created, but darkened by Stan...

Johnny was easy to write, he was a kid. Reed was the scientist workaholic who could babble on and on - right up Stan's alley. Sue... don't even get me started on how badly Stan mucked up Sue Storms character... but Ben... that may've been Kirby on the outside, and lovable 'aw shucks after a tirade' part of his personality - but the dark side came from Stan.

I HATE the Lennon and McCartney comparison to Lee & Kirby... Stan Lee is no Paul McCartney. He couldn't create a thing on his own. But HERE, much the same way as Paul would sing 'It's Getting Better all the Time', and John would then respond with 'It can't get much worse'... Ben Grimm can respond to the tragedy with 'Bah! What'd you expect?'

Most people get confused with the Stan is Reed, Jack is Ben, Roy is Susan (ha ha just kidding', Houseroy)... I believe it's MUCH deeper than that. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:58 AM, Zonker said:

So why don't we see any hint of this in his Marvel stories prior to FF #1?  I can't imagine why Kirby would adopt this affectation as a writer later in life if he had consistently been scripting his characters' speeches all along?

Nice catch! I never noticed that before...

Speech patterns change throughout our life depending on many different things - influences, reactions, people pointing them out when we didn't know we did them so we STOP...

Two things I used to do was use the horrible slang phrase 'For the most part', until someone pointed it out and I stopped myself from using it. I also do THIS a lot when I write... that dot dot dot to end a sentence. 

NOT something I did in my early writing days. But now it's a regular habit. Not sure WHERE I got that...

See?

Kirby could've picked it up from somewhere - seen someone else using it - felt the need to explain things better in his stories... been EDITED... he wrote for years without fans giving their input on stories... from FF #1 on he'd hear plenty of it at conventions around the country... THAT could've influenced it...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - It also fits in to Marvel's history of the... anti-hero, or off color hero. The Sub-Mariner, the original Human Torch... both kinda monsters... The FF fit right in. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - A team brought together out of tragedy - fate - not like "Hey! You're a superhero TOO! We should start a team!"

This wasn't the squeaky clean Justice League of America. 

This was something ELSE. And it would be a defining moment in the history of comic books.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - This team is now ready for action! And considering what Jack has done over the last 3 years at Marvel, obviously there's a MONSTER problem these days so...

Part THREE