Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

On 12/29/2022 at 1:01 PM, Zonker said:

Yes, I had thought about posting this earlier, but feared the possible resulting aneurysm to this thread's participants.  

Knowing all I know I couldn't even begin to watch something like that. The repeated lies, even the ones that have been proven over and over. For many, they'll feel a sense of excitement by it. 

Some people want to believe George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie. Others prefer to know what we did to the native people of this land in taking it over. It's just a difference in the mental comfort level people need in their lives. 

[Mmehdy]

On 12/29/2022 at 12:04 PM, Prince Namor said:

Knowing all I know I couldn't even begin to watch something like that. The repeated lies, even the ones that have been proven over and over. For many, they'll feel a sense of excitement by it. 

Some people want to believe George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie. Others prefer to know what we did to the native people of this land in taking it over. It's just a difference in the mental comfort level people need in their lives. 

I would look forward to your evaluation of that program...I know painful to watch...but maybe you can contact the producers to give them additional information....

[Prince Namor]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:13 PM, Mmehdy said:

I would look forward to your evaluation of that program...I know painful to watch...but maybe you can contact the producers to give them additional information....

The problem is... I don't think Disney is concerned with the truth. They're concerned with what sells. And Stan created a history that easily sells to people that want to believe that a happy go-lucky (on the surface) single creator came up with all of these ideas as repeated endlessly by him.

The Marvel vs Kirbys trial is the perfect example of how Disney isn't interested in the truth. The way it was misrepresented by people....

Something a friend of mine was just talking about, was how even John Morrow who does the Jack Kirby Collector Mag and the Kirby Museum get wrong many of these facts by quoting blogs instead of the online testimony: They both state that the Kirby's attorney accuses Disney of paying Stan Lee to pressure his brother Larry on his testimony - under the implication that he'll lose his only source of income (drawing the Spider-Man newspaper strip).

This is a completely fabricated crock of $#&%, as Toberoff is quoting the HEAVILY REDACTED transcript and actual quotes Larry Lieber in it. 

It's IN the testimony that Larry Lieber gave. But WE can't see it. You CAN see how much has been redacted from the page numbers missing. The reason is because Marvel had it redacted from the public transcript. However the judge had full access to Lieber's deposition and that is why Toberoff made the notations as to exactly where the quotations can be found (see the image below).  

https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2010cv00141/356975/102/5.html?fbclid=IwAR26ctyJSdabPOlYICibu7Em2vVhLGu2VdxESrvsJ2aRbsBBmc2E2-Ir-Is

Marvel had redacted from PUBLIC VIEW, an estimated 70% of the testimony given by people. 

The Kirby's lawyer (Marc Toberoff) also never said Lee was PAID for his testimony. What Toberoff wrote was that when Disney purchased Marvel, Lee was paid a "gratuity." In other words he was paid a sum on top of his contract. This statement by Toberoff was also fully documented.

It didn't matter. The Stan Lee sycophants online and in print began their misinformation campaign. Even in simple phrases like 'Kirbys sue Marvel' which not actually the case. The Kirbys filed for copyright ownership as the deadline came up and Marvel sued THEM. 

John Morrow has never corrected his error, despite being alerted to it numerous times. 

And the sycophants keep repeating the lies for the zombies. 

All I can do is lay out what I see and hope people become more interested in the truth than the fantasy. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Mmehdy]

Any idea on the settlement amount given to the Kirbys kids???

[Prince Namor]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:52 PM, Mmehdy said:

Any idea on the settlement amount given to the Kirbys kids???

No, no idea. Though Rich Johnston from Bleeding Cool says he has a well connected source who says "eight figures. Mid eight figures." ($40-ish million), which would be the biggest pay out ever for a creator settlement. 

As I stated earlier, Marvel was ready to put Jack's name on some things that weren't there before and credits where he previously didn't have them and Stan Lee and his lawyers put the kibosh on that. 

The power behind the lies are huge. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Just discovered this site yesterday. What a great idea, looking at the Kirby/Ditko/Lee creative process month by month!

One interesting thing I noticed:

From 1959 to mid-1961, Artie Simek (Marvel's best letterer) did almost all the Kirby/Ayers monster books. Suddenly, in mid-1961, when Lee is whiting out the Kirby/Ayers signatures and trying to raise his own profile, suddenly most of Kirby's work is lettered by others. I recognize Joe Letterese and John Duffy, plus a third letterer that might be long-time Atlas/Marvel production guy Herb Cooper. Decent, professional gentlemen, but not in the same league as Simek.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:07 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Just discovered this site yesterday. What a great idea, looking at the Kirby/Ditko/Lee creative process month by month!

One interesting thing I noticed:

From 1959 to mid-1961, Artie Simek (Marvel's best letterer) did almost all the Kirby/Ayers monster books. Suddenly, in mid-1961, when Lee is whiting out the Kirby/Ayers signatures and trying to raise his own profile, suddenly most of Kirby's work is lettered by others. I recognize Joe Letterese and John Duffy, plus a third letterer that might be long-time Atlas/Marvel production guy Herb Cooper. Decent, professional gentlemen, but not in the same league as Simek.

Wow! Good work!

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

Joan Lee changes the course of Marvel History

Stan Lee's wife, Joan, is mad.

She paces the large apartment, a cigarette in one hand, a martini in the other. "You think we can survive this lifestyle off just your editor salary?"

Stan is exasperated, slumping down on the big plush, living room sofa, "I just don't know what to do. Martin is saying that we're going to take a break from the books in October... but I see the writing on the wall. I may not even have that editor salary soon..."

Joan puts her foot down. "What are you going to do? Feel sorry for yourself? You need to make some comics that SELL. Show Martin you can run that company and be successful."

"I-I've tried... this Nurse comic doesn't look promising. I've been trying to get Jack Kirby to let me work with him, but he isn't interested... the monster thing can't go on forever... I..."

Joan sets her Martini down and stares at her husband. She takes a long drag of her L&M cigarette, and puts it out in the ash tray. "You're sniveling, Stanley. Stop it. Get it together!"

She stomps over to the kitchen counter top and picks up copies of DC's latest comics that Stan has brought home. "See. THIS is what you should be doing. Superheroes. Superman is the everywhere. Even his girlfriend Lois Lane has a comic!"

Stan quietly replies, "Jack has been trying to get Martin to let him do a superhero book. He's not too keen on the idea..."

Joan shoots him a look. "Oh he's NOT? Listen Stanley, he's going to SHUT DOWN the comics division. You need to SAVE it."

Joan gets very serious... "You need to WRITE something WITH this Jack Kirby. A super hero comic."

Stan meekly says, "But Jack is writer, too... he wants to write his own stories..."

Joan gets serious. "Don't ever let me hear you call him a writer again. YOU are the writer. You understand? You need to do everything in your power to make him NOT look like a writer. YOU are the writer."

Stan suddenly feels a brief surge of energy. "You're right. I AM the writer. You KNOW I always wanted to write the great American novel!"

Joan busts out laughing, as Stan deflates. She tries to suppress her giggles, until finally... "I'm sorry, I'm sorry... it's just... oh, Stanley, darling. You've just never WRITTEN anything. Martin has magazines and paperback novels... at ANY point you could've written SOMETHING.... ANYTHING to get yourself started. Look how many people came through there that turned into novelists... Mickey Spillane wrote comic book stories, but he also got his real work published and became a novelist. He didn't even have to be related to the publisher!"

Stan feels defeated.

Joan starts quietly. "But it's not about that, my dear. It's about YOU taking the bull by the horns. YOU run the comics there, NOT Martin. You have to get a handle on this thing."

She starts to get more aggressive, "First, you tell Jack Kirby that if he wants to do superheroes, the only way is if he does it WITH you, and YOU'LL sneak it into publication. Got it? So what happens if he doesn't go a long with it? He quits? The comic division gets shut down? You THINK that's going to happen any way, what've you got to lose?"

"Secondly, you have to get it in people's minds that HE is the artist, and YOU are the writer. Perception is everything. It's like advertising - it doesn't matter WHAT the product IS, just HOW you can SELL it. Get ahold of those fanzine kids, make them LIKE you, by giving them inside info...isn't that what you said DC does?"

Stan nods. 

"Make this superhero idea a success, and maybe Martin will keep it all going. Once you're the 'writer' on the whole line of books, think how big your paychecks will be", she smiles.

"But Jack isn't going to suddenly let ME take credit for the Monster books he's been doing for three years on his own..."

Joan sighs. "Darling, darling, darling..." She lights up another L&M.  "YOU are the BOSS. YOU make the decisions. One by one, turn each of them into what YOU want them to be. If this superhero thing works, you'll want more. Right? Turn each one into a superhero idea that he MUST share with YOU, so you 'slip them past Martin'. See?"

The light bulb goes off over Stan's head. 

He smiles, "Of course..."

 

Of course Stan would write a different made up version of this story...

I've just discovered this massive History of Marvel / Excoriation of Stan Lee thread you've been posting, so forgive the lateness of my reply, but--are you saying your version of this story isn't made up? You didn't live in Stan's house, right? You weren't sitting on the couch while he had this "conversation" with his wife? Also, putting words in his wife's mouth that paint her as some kind of manipulative Lady Macbeth just strikes me as distasteful. Maybe you should leave her out of it.

Also, you say that Kirby or Ditko wrote various issues that Stan was credited as writer for--are you saying Kirby and Ditko also wrote all the dialogue for those issues? I know Kirby wrote his own dialogue in the margins of books that he was drawing and plotting--but was that dialogue actually used in the final product? Because plotting is definitely part of writing, but if someone else is doing the dialogue, then that makes both people co-writers.

I'm asking this because I truly don't know--other than the stories in the comics themselves and what you're able to glean from them as to artistic intent, what actual evidence do you have that any of your claims about Stan Lee are true? Did you work in the Marvel bullpen in some capacity? Have you interviewed Kirby or Ditko or Lee? I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly don't know, and this thread is gigantic so I haven't read through it all yet. You are certainly painting an unflattering picture of Stan Lee but I don't see any evidence yet; you seem to be assigning motivations to people based on the work in the comics and assuming you know exactly what was going through their heads at the time.

I feel like Stan Lee needs an advocate on this thread, but I don't know enough about him or the history of the comics to be that advocate.

(But hey, remember that time Kirby tried to claim legal ownership of Spider-Man? I'd love it if you could tell us all what was going through Kirby's mind then...)

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

I've just discovered this massive History of Marvel / Excoriation of Stan Lee thread you've been posting, so forgive the lateness of my reply, but--are you saying your version of this story isn't made up? You didn't live in Stan's house, right? You weren't sitting on the couch while he had this "conversation" with his wife? Also, putting words in his wife's mouth that paint her as some kind of manipulative Lady Macbeth just strikes me as distasteful. Maybe you should leave her out of it.

I'll save this for last.

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

Also, you say that Kirby or Ditko wrote various issues that Stan was credited as writer for--are you saying Kirby and Ditko also wrote all the dialogue for those issues? I know Kirby wrote his own dialogue in the margins of books that he was drawing and plotting--but was that dialogue actually used in the final product? Because plotting is definitely part of writing, but if someone else is doing the dialogue, then that makes both people co-writers.

So why isn't Jim Shooter listed as co-writer on the Spider-man newspaper strip. He ghosted it for Stan, but he actually wrote the dialogue. If, as you say "someone else is doing the dialogue, then that makes both people co-writers."   Shouldn't he have gotten credit? Or Houseroy when HE was ghostwriting it for Stan?

If Stephen King's Editor says, "You should do a story about a rabid dog" and he writes Cujo, the entire thing - and the editor goes in and changes the dialogue and adds witty sayings like "That and two bits'll buy ya a cup of coffee, Bub!" - you think that makes them equal writing partners?

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

I'm asking this because I truly don't know--other than the stories in the comics themselves and what you're able to glean from them as to artistic intent,

If you read this simply from that, you'll get the point. You can skip MY editorial altogether. 

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

what actual evidence do you have that any of your claims about Stan Lee are true? Did you work in the Marvel bullpen in some capacity? Have you interviewed Kirby or Ditko or Lee? I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly don't know, and this thread is gigantic

I've posted my proof. If you have something specific, feel free to ask. 

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

so I haven't read through it all yet.

That's usually the case.

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

You are certainly painting an unflattering picture of Stan Lee but I don't see any evidence yet; you seem to be assigning motivations to people based on the work in the comics and assuming you know exactly what was going through their heads at the time.

Hmmm... maybe we need an update of quotes from artists and writers in the business who've worked with Stan... coming right up!

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

I feel like Stan Lee needs an advocate on this thread, but I don't know enough about him or the history of the comics to be that advocate.

Stan Lee had free reign to tell his BS story for 50 years. He hardly needs an advocate. Ditko spoke about their relationship for the first time in 2000-2002 and the mainstream press completely ignored it. Even though... realistically what he had to say about it made more sense and answered more questions than the silly nonsense Stan had been saying fro years.

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

(But hey, remember that time Kirby tried to claim legal ownership of Spider-Man?

No. When did that happen? 

[Prince Namor]

 

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

I'd love it if you could tell us all what was going through Kirby's mind then...)

Well, I do remember him saying he 'created Spider-man' in The Comics Journal article in 1986 - which technically, he DID, as much as Stan did. He and Joe Simon had a character - he eventually became the Fly for Archie Comics - but there's documentation that shows they presented these ideas to other publishers - it was called the Silver Spider at one time AND Kirby did 5 pages of Spider-man for Marvel that, for whatever reason, Marvel decided not to use and instead gave to Ditko to do (Jim Shooter says he's actually seen these Kirby pages).

Ditko's version was different - which in the very same year as the TCJ interview Kirby addressed in a separate interview (which none of the Stan Lee Zombies care to point out:

KIRBY: My initial concept was practically the same. But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he has an intellect. Personality wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco– although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time– Steve developed Spider-Man and made a salable item out of it.

KIRBY: There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

PITTS: So, you’re saying you had the original idea and presented it to Ditko?

KIRBY: I didn’t present it to Ditko. I presented everything to Stan Lee. I drew up the costume, I gave him the character and I put it in the hands of Marvel. By giving it to Stan Lee, I put it in the hands of Marvel, because Stan Lee had contact with the publisher. I didn’t. Stan Lee gave it to Steve Ditko because I was doing everything else, until Johnny Romita came in to take up some of the slack. There were very few people up at Marvel...

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

There's a lot of information out there, if you go look for it. 

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

I've just discovered this massive History of Marvel / Excoriation of Stan Lee thread you've been posting, so forgive the lateness of my reply, but--are you saying your version of this story isn't made up? You didn't live in Stan's house, right? You weren't sitting on the couch while he had this "conversation" with his wife? Also, putting words in his wife's mouth that paint her as some kind of manipulative Lady Macbeth just strikes me as distasteful.

Ever see a movie about Abraham Lincoln or Jesus or the Beatles where they write dialogue for the characters? They didn't live in their house did they? They weren't sitting on the couch during conversations were they? 

You ever listen to the Stan Lee audio tapes, or read the transcripts or interviews with his wife or Stan?

I've read ALL of them I'm aware of. MULTIPLE TIMES. I've spent 10 years in this.

You haven't even read this whole thread. 

On 3/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, Mark Warren said:

Maybe you should leave her out of it.

If you don't like it - don't read it. Won't hurt my feelings a bit. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

Joan Lee changes the course of Marvel History

Stan Lee's wife, Joan, is mad.

She paces the large apartment, a cigarette in one hand, a martini in the other. "You think we can survive this lifestyle off just your editor salary?"

Stan is exasperated, slumping down on the big plush, living room sofa, "I just don't know what to do. Martin is saying that we're going to take a break from the books in October... but I see the writing on the wall. I may not even have that editor salary soon..."

Joan puts her foot down. "What are you going to do? Feel sorry for yourself? You need to make some comics that SELL. Show Martin you can run that company and be successful."

"I-I've tried... this Nurse comic doesn't look promising. I've been trying to get Jack Kirby to let me work with him, but he isn't interested... the monster thing can't go on forever... I..."

Joan sets her Martini down and stares at her husband. She takes a long drag of her L&M cigarette, and puts it out in the ash tray. "You're sniveling, Stanley. Stop it. Get it together!"

She stomps over to the kitchen counter top and picks up copies of DC's latest comics that Stan has brought home. "See. THIS is what you should be doing. Superheroes. Superman is the everywhere. Even his girlfriend Lois Lane has a comic!"

Stan quietly replies, "Jack has been trying to get Martin to let him do a superhero book. He's not too keen on the idea..."

Joan shoots him a look. "Oh he's NOT? Listen Stanley, he's going to SHUT DOWN the comics division. You need to SAVE it."

Joan gets very serious... "You need to WRITE something WITH this Jack Kirby. A super hero comic."

Stan meekly says, "But Jack is writer, too... he wants to write his own stories..."

Joan gets serious. "Don't ever let me hear you call him a writer again. YOU are the writer. You understand? You need to do everything in your power to make him NOT look like a writer. YOU are the writer."

Stan suddenly feels a brief surge of energy. "You're right. I AM the writer. You KNOW I always wanted to write the great American novel!"

Joan busts out laughing, as Stan deflates. She tries to suppress her giggles, until finally... "I'm sorry, I'm sorry... it's just... oh, Stanley, darling. You've just never WRITTEN anything. Martin has magazines and paperback novels... at ANY point you could've written SOMETHING.... ANYTHING to get yourself started. Look how many people came through there that turned into novelists... Mickey Spillane wrote comic book stories, but he also got his real work published and became a novelist. He didn't even have to be related to the publisher!"

Stan feels defeated.

Joan starts quietly. "But it's not about that, my dear. It's about YOU taking the bull by the horns. YOU run the comics there, NOT Martin. You have to get a handle on this thing."

She starts to get more aggressive, "First, you tell Jack Kirby that if he wants to do superheroes, the only way is if he does it WITH you, and YOU'LL sneak it into publication. Got it? So what happens if he doesn't go a long with it? He quits? The comic division gets shut down? You THINK that's going to happen any way, what've you got to lose?"

"Secondly, you have to get it in people's minds that HE is the artist, and YOU are the writer. Perception is everything. It's like advertising - it doesn't matter WHAT the product IS, just HOW you can SELL it. Get ahold of those fanzine kids, make them LIKE you, by giving them inside info...isn't that what you said DC does?"

Stan nods. 

"Make this superhero idea a success, and maybe Martin will keep it all going. Once you're the 'writer' on the whole line of books, think how big your paychecks will be", she smiles.

"But Jack isn't going to suddenly let ME take credit for the Monster books he's been doing for three years on his own..."

Joan sighs. "Darling, darling, darling..." She lights up another L&M.  "YOU are the BOSS. YOU make the decisions. One by one, turn each of them into what YOU want them to be. If this superhero thing works, you'll want more. Right? Turn each one into a superhero idea that he MUST share with YOU, so you 'slip them past Martin'. See?"

The light bulb goes off over Stan's head. 

He smiles, "Of course..."

 

Of course Stan would write a different made up version of this story...

To be quite honest, I think MY version sounds more plausible than Stan's does.

[Prince Namor]

I have so many notes and quotes I need to organize these one day:

 

DITKO

Charlton and DC Editor/artist MR. Giordano - “None of the ‘Action Heroes’ line would have happened if it weren’t for Steve Ditko’s discontent with the situation at Spider-man. I was visiting his New York studio while he angrily insisted (as did Jack Kirby later) that he, not Stan Lee, was writing scripts for Spider-man. To make his point, he indicated a chart on the wall that clearly outlined the Spider-man storyline for the next three or four issues. Stan, of course, did write the dialogue but Steve, whether rightly or wrongly, still insisted he should get scripting credit.”

 

Ralph Reese (New York born artist/Wally Wood assistant) - “In spite of their very different political views, Woody and Ditko always got along well, perhaps because they were both unassuming in nature and shared a mutual hatred of Stan Lee. While I do have some respect for Stan Lee’s contribution to the world of comics, it is well known he had a predilection for putting his name on other people’s work. And as a person, he’s a total phony. That is not necessarily always a bad thing in the world of business, and I do think he has a certain genius for self-promotion and therefor promotion of the Marvel brand. But both Wood and Ditko despised him. Not too surprising considering that they were both just the opposite in terms of personality. So, they felt like any very talented but shy and retiring artist type when confronted by such an overbearing and relentless self-aggrandizer - especially one who was basically ripping them off.”

 

Ralph Reese: “He despised Stan,” recalls Wood’s former assistant Ralph Reese. “He was always ‘on’, he was always being ‘Stan Lee’. He was just a relentless self-promoter. He was kind of a phony, in Wood’s opinion.”

Years later, according to Reese, Wood and Ditko would spend time together and kvetch about Stan. “They said that Stan’s a blowhard and took credit for a lot of stuff he didn’t really create,” Reese recalls. “Even more than that, they resented the fact that Stan was making millions of dollars and they were still struggling, living in rented apartments.

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

Yet another classic creator, Joe Orlando, was recruited after him (Bill Everett) and chafed under what he identified as Stan’s desire to have art that looked like Kirby’s, so he quit… admitted Orlando, “was that I wasn’t Jack Kirby. Jack - or Ditko, or just a couple of others - could take a couple of sentences of plot and bring in 20 pages that Stan could dialogue in an afternoon or two. When I drew out the story my way, Stan would go over it and say, ‘this panel needs to be changed’ and ‘this whole page needs to be changed’ and on and on. I didn’t plot it out the way he wanted the story told, so I wound up drawing at least half of every story twice. They weren’t paying enough for that so I quit.”

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

Page 253 (Kindle Ed.) A former employee suspects that, when Stan grew tired of the signing, he would let (Peter) Paul forge his signature on the remaining items…

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

People who had worked at or currently worked at Marvel, including Conway, Ditko, and even Stan's own brother Larry, joined the Goodmans' enterprise. Larry had been deeply dissatisfied with Stan - it was around this time that he asked Stan for work and got that comment from an editor that Stan didn't consider Larry to be a part of his family. Larry recalls taking lunch with Goodman and getting a confidence boost. "Martin gets angry: 'That son of a person_without_enough_empathy, why doesn't he give you some work?'" Larry remembers.

So Larry went to Stan and said he was thinking about jumping ship. "He says to me, 'Well, I guess you've got to go over there and give [Goodman] the work, but I'd rather you didn't write for them. But I guess I can't ask you to do that', " Larry says. "The guys got millions! I can't pay my rent! And he's telling me not to write for them!" Indignant, Larry made a rare stand against his brother and went to Atlas/Seaboard.

-from True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

 

Stan still didn’t seem to get what was bothering Kirby. Evanier tells me of a time near the end of the 1970s when he ran into Stan at the San Diego Comic Convention and got into a conversation with him about Kirby. The topic of the infamous 1966 Herald Tribune article came up and Stan started talking about how it wasn’t his fault that journalists and others gave him full credit instead of acknowledging Kirby - a refrain he would utter many times throughout his life. Evanier couldn’t take it anymore. He recalls the following dialogue, which referenced the entertainment duo of Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis:

I said, “At some point in every Martin and Lewis movie, Dean says to somebody, ‘Hey, you can’t do that to my pal.’” And I said, “Stan, no matter what they do to Jack, it’s always somebody else. You dive under the desk: ‘I’m not responsible for him being screwed, because I didn’t screw him personally.’ “ I said, “When I work with people and I get credit for their work, I go out and write a letter and I try and correct the record.” And I finally said, “I don’t understand how you can write superheroes and say, ‘With great power comes great responsibility.’” And he got furious at me and didn’t speak to me for a year and a half.

 

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

 

(1) Stan Lee Interview (in 1986 from an article in the Village Voice): 

“I really don’t want to say anything against Jack,” Lee says in an interview that begins in a massive, high-tech conference room at Marvel’s Van Nuys, California, animation studio and ends in his sculpture-filled office at the other end of the complex. “I love and respect him very much. He’s one of the most talented, hard-working guys I know, but I think he thinks he created these characters because he drew them. But, I would suggest how I wanted them drawn: ‘Make him a little bigger.’ ‘The head is too wide.’ And, of course, the characters’ concepts were mine, too.”

“I would give Jack an outline or tell him the plot I wanted and let him break it down to determine what each drawing would be. When I got them back, I would put in the dialogue to inject whatever personality I wanted. Kirby was doing what he’d always done,” says Lee, “drawing beautiful pictures. While they were not as sophisticated and polished as some artists, they had a raw power. But what brought about the renaissance of comics was the style change in the writing, my writing.”

(2) Wally Wood: 

Stan was the scripter, but I was coming up with most of the ideas. It finally got to the point where I told him that if he was the writer, he’d have to come up with the plots. So, we just sat across the desk from one another in silence.

(3) Joe Orlando: 

He really didn’t seem to have any ideas, but we worked out a plot, and he sent me the synopsis. I couldn’t believe it when I saw it. In one line, Stan indicated that he wanted a three-page fight sequence, in a garage, or whatever. Nothing else. So I called and asked him what I should do. He said, “You know, throw some tires around, do something with some oil, make it up as you go.'”Well, that didn’t help.

(4) Stan Goldberg and Jim Amash interview excerpt: 

Stan Goldberg: Jack would sit there at lunch, and tell us these great ideas about what he was going to do next. It was like the ideas were bursting from every pore of his body. It was very interesting because he was a fountain of ideas. Stan would drive me home and we’d plot our stories in the car. I’d say to Stan, “How’s this? Millie loses her job.” He’d say, “Great! Give me 25 pages.” And that took him off the hook.

One time I was in Stan’s office and I told him, “I don’t have another plot.” Stan got out of his chair and walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, “I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.” Then he walked back and sat down in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more.

Jim Amash: Sounds like you were doing most of the writing then.

Goldberg: Well, I was.

(5) Steve Ditko: 

The fact is we had no story or idea discussion about Spider-Man books even before issue #26 up to when I left the book. Stan never knew what was in my plotted stories until I took in the penciled story, the cover, my --script and Sol Brodsky took the material from me and took it all into Stan’s office.

Wood knew. Everyone knew. It wasn’t a secret. Why do you think some of the best talent in the business (Jack Davis, Joe Orlando, Harvey Kurtzman, Johnny Craig, Al Feldstein, etc) either avoided Marvel like the plague or only worked there briefly.

Wood: I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

Evanier: You did write one issue, as I recall--

Wood: One yes [Daredevil #10]. I persuaded him to let me write one by myself since I was doing 99% of the writing already. I wrote it, handed it in, and he said it was hopeless. He said he'd have to rewrite it all and write the next issue himself. Well, I said I couldn't contribute to the storyline unless I got paid something for writing, and Stan said he'd look into it, but after that he only had inking for me. Bob Powell was suddenly pencilling Daredevil.[Later on in the interview] ... I saw [Daredevil #10] when it came out, and Stan had changed five words---less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.

The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood, Vol. 1

 

Romita: The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next Month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it. - Comic Book Artist Magazine

 

Gil Kane

Gil: Marvel came to me and asked me to do Spider-Man – John Romita was not able to produce pencils for the book every month. I came in and proposed a radical change from what they had been doing.

Steve: You started with the drugs issue.

Gil: Yes, it was the drug issue – a sensational way to grab the headlines. I made up a story and Stan put in the copy. I never thought that issue was anything special – it was simply that we didn’t get a Comics Code stamp. Anyway, Stan liked what I was doing and so, for the next several issues, I did Spider-Man with him. It was a first-rate process, he taught me a lot – he was very critical of certain things and knew what he wanted in the Marvel style and ultimately he showed me how to apply it. Stan made so many requirements of me as a writer, though – a couple of times I said “Look, if you don’t like what I’m doing, do it yourself!” but he didn’t want that, he just wanted to take the artwork home at night and there, from after dinner until 2 or 3 in the morning he’d write a book – and it was some of his best stuff. Then Roy Thomas and I became friends – You always wanted to work with me – and he took over on Spider-Man.

 

Michael J. Vassallo: "...when Stan was Goodman’s only employee in the comic book division, it was because his entire comic book line imploded due the loss of his distributor. This was April of 1957. He cut down from nearly 75 titles down to 16, and the 16 were filled with nothing but inventory for nearly an entire year. Everyone was fired. There was no production staff because there was no production. When the inventory began to run out, Goodman allowed the purchase of new teen humor and western material. Stan wrote the teen and the main western characters. This plodded on until June of 1958 when Joe Maneely died.

Within one or two days of Maneely’s death (and I know this because job number analysis puts it at 2 days at most) Jack was back and the line immediately expanded to include new science fantasy titles like Strange Worlds, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense. Additionally, Strange Tales and a revived Journey Into Mystery converted from inventory to new science fantasy material. Now Martin Goodman hated science Fiction and it failed with him at every level since his pulp days. Evidence point to the fact that it was Jack Kirby who pushed this new direction because it was what he knew best. It was what he was doing elsewhere at DC until very recently, as well as his syndicated Sky Masters strip. He saw it as the way to go. So Goodman relented and the new titles were launched. Stan did not write any of these stories. He was busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and their ilk, as well as Two-Gun Kid and Kid Colt. (Only since 1958 did he write these western characters. From 1948 to 1957 they were written by other Timely/Atlas writers). The first year’s scripts came from re-tooled, undrawn inventory sitting in a pile since early 1957. I’ve identified some of these from Carl Wessler’s work records, and there were a ton of writers’ scripts piled up when the work stoppage went into effect in April/57.

After a year the inventoried scripts ran out and the line changed to the monster comics we all know in 1959-60. Again, Stan didn’t --script any of them. He was too busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and the two western characters. Jack Kirby’s lead stories were mostly plotted by himself. Larry Lieber says he typed up scripts but my feeling is he was typing up scripts Jack had already plotted. Jack, had been turning out tons of sci-fi and monsters on his own for years. Why would he need a novice writer (which Larry was) to funnel him story ideas?? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So this plods on until sales slip and Jack begins pushing for superheroes to return, as he said he was since 1958, and getting nowhere. He brought in a blitzkrieg of new characters, the first one which was a super powered take on a book he had done for DC, the Challengers of the Unknown. The rest, as we say, is history. After deep diving into the published history and careers of both creators for 30 years now, there’s no other way I can see this coming about. I do not believe the official version told since the Origins books in 1974. From a factual historical data perspective, they make no sense whatsoever. Neither does a side by side comparison of both creator’s entire careers. You’ve got to approach this like a course in medieval comparative literature, coming in with no set agenda and allowing the historical published evidence to help guide your deductions, not emotions."

 

John Severin - TCJ February 14, 2012

 

GROTH: So before you went to Stan Lee after EC went under, you knew him?

SEVERIN: Yeah.

GROTH: And had established something of a working relationship with him?

SEVERIN: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, while I was working at EC, I wrote him a semi-nasty tongue-in-cheek letter about the fact that all the artists in all of his war books, were tracing panels right out of Harvey's (Kurtzman) books. And I cut out the panels from both books and pasted them down side by side and sent the whole letter to him. So he made a luncheon engagement at Longchamps and explained to me why they were doing that. He said, “I didn't know they were doing that. You know, the artists are imitating the artists at EC with all that military stuff because they find that's good research.” I was just kidding him. I got a nice swordfish steak out of it. I figure, maybe I ought to write some more letters.

GROTH: But you didn't take any serious umbrage at that?

SEVERIN: No. What the heck do I care? The thing was, it got to be ridiculous when, on any given page, there were three panels that were right out of Harvey's stories. It was kind of silly at this point. I just wanted him to know that I had noted this. He's a good guy.

 

————————————

 

More of Daniel Keyes, author of Flowers for Algernon. "Between 1952 and 1955 Keyes was a prolific contributor to Stan Lee’s fantasy/horror line." Will Murray interviewed him for Alter Ego #13, March 2002.

WM: How did you switch from pulps to comics editing?

KEYES: The pulps were about to fold, and I was getting laid off from Stadium Publications. I was transferred over to Timely to work for Martin Goodman’s [nephew by marriage] Stan Lee. Goodman had to cut back on the pulps because they were dying. And he didn’t want to let me go. He felt I was a good editor. And Erisman put in a good word for me. So he gave me an opportunity to work for Stan Lee. On the same floor. It was just through another door. It was this big place. The letterers were there. And Stan had an office in the back.

WM: Tell me about Stan Lee.

KEYES: Well, Stan was tall, skinny. And the shyest person I had ever met up until that time. He would not talk to anyone. He’d hole up in his back office. My memory of him is that he’s got a glass on the floor, and a putter, and he’s putting golf balls, practicing his putting into the glass. Because I’d published a few stories outside, in Other Worlds and Fantastic [pulp magazines], he sort of let me take control of the science-fiction/fantasy/horror comics.

WM: Things like Strange Tales?

KEYES: Exactly. Strange Tales, yes.

WM: I think their big magazines were Journey into Mystery, Mystic, Spellbound, Marvel Tales.

KEYES: Yes. I wrote all those. [laughs] I want to write that down, because I had forgotten the titles. At first I just edited them. Writers would come in. I would bring the synopses in to Stan. He would choose a number of them, but I was the front man. I would sit up front. I would deal with the --script writers, the artists. They would bring the stuff to me. I would bring them back to Stan. I was a go-between. Eventually, I started writing them. And I was pretty good at it.

[...]

WM: Did you work on the western comics?

KEYES: I worked across the board. I think Hank Chapman was mostly with westerns. They had westerns. They had war. I think Timely had about fifty titles. It was like we had an assembly line going. We worked our asses off. I’d get the synopses. I’d read them, and select a number, bring them to Stan. He would then weed them out again. He had a regular stable, so we gave preference to those. Usually, they were all written by the same writers. As I submitted more and more synopses, he liked my stuff. Over a weekend I might write three or four scripts. I was earning between three and four hundred bucks a week at that time. That was pretty good money in the ’50s. And eventually I said it didn’t pay for me to be an editor there. I’d make much more money writing. So then I was freelancing, with Stan’s approval.

WM: And how long did you work for Stan?

KEYES: Probably about another year. But then I was freelancing. I was making good money. It was easy money. At one point I decided I had to pull out the harpoon because I wanted to do serious stuff. And that’s when I wrote the synopsis for Flowers for Algernon. It was originally written as a synopsis for Stan Lee.

WM: No kidding?

KEYES: Oh, yeah. I never turned it in to Stan Lee. Something told me it shouldn’t be in there.

WM: It’s amazing to think that, but for your hunch, Flowers for Algernon would have languished in Journey into Mystery as a five-pager drawn by Bill Everett or Sid Check or somebody.

KEYES: Stan had a beef with me. I was a little too independent. He knew I would quit on a dime. He was a control freak. He couldn’t control me. But he couldn’t let me go, either. So one day I said, “I think I’m going to get married.” And I remember vividly, he says, “Good. Get married. Buy a car. Get a house. Then you won’t be so independent.” [laughs] He figured he would be in control.

WM: Was he good to work for?

KEYES: Not really. That shyness. He was very supercilious. He was way above all of us. I think Martin Goodman looked down on him. I intuited that. So I think, in a sense, Stan kicked people below him. There’s a pattern. When somebody looks down at you, then you look down at the people below you. Nothing overt. It was just this feeling. But he was tough. He couldn’t control me.

[...]

WM: You must have been with Stan Lee two or three years freelancing, then?

KEYES: Yeah. I would write between three and five scripts a week.

WM: Did he have fixed lengths he wanted you to work in?

KEYES: Not fixed lengths. It went according to the story. He had a fairly good instinct for the suspense, the twists, you know. Generally, he knew what he was doing. But there was no fixed length as such.

WM: So you didn’t write any serial characters?

KEYES: No. I never did that.

WM: And you never wrote things like Kid Colt or Two-Gun Kid or Millie the Model?

KEYES: I remember Millie the Model. But I was generally suspense, horror, weird, and science-fiction. That was my bailiwick.

WM: Stan Lee is today considered one of the great comic book writers. Was he writing many comics in those days?

KEYES: Not to my knowledge. He edited, I guess. He was a businessman, as far as I was concerned. And a shy businessman is almost an oxymoron. I’ve never thought of Stan as a writer at all. So that surprises me. Of course, he might have been turning in comics for a few extra bucks, doing it under pen names so that Martin Goodman wouldn’t know about it. I never thought of Stan as a writer. He says that he created Spider-Man. I never thought of him as a creative person. It could be that one of the writers created it and sent in a synopsis. And it got picked up. But of course he’s become a multi-millionaire for that stuff.

———————————————

————————

 

JOHN BUSCEMA (SDCC, 2001): "Did I work at Marvel? I mean, I'm hearing stories I never heard. I don't recall Stan jumping or dancing because we worked over the phone."

JOHN ROMITA: "And you used to love the plots right?"

BUSCEMA: " I hated it. "

 

———————

'Ayers told us how Stan called him one day and said, “I can’t think of a story for Sgt. Fury #23. We won’t have an issue unless you think of something!” A worried MR. could not sleep that night and kept Lindy awake too. They talked about story after story until, in the middle of the night, Lindy came up with the idea of the Howlers saving a nun and her young charges. MR. said, “Stan will never go for that, he wants nothing about religion… But I’ll ask him.” When MR. did, Stan said, “What a great idea, I’ll use it.” So they put together a terrific story. When MR.’s finished pages were shown to him, he saw the credits where he was only listed as artist. He went to Stan’s office and asked if he could also be listed as co-plotter. Stan yelled, “Since when did you developed an ego? Get out of here!”'

Dick Ayers

_______________

After leaving the service Stan Lee went through a period where he wrote next to nothing for a couple of years. When he did write during that period he tended to work with Dan DeCarlo and Harvey Kurtzman. It is said by Kurtzman's wife that she rigged a reader poll in order to promote Kurtzman as a reader favorite. A short while later Lee hitched himself to Kurtzman's wagon. Resulting in a year of "collaboration" which Kurtzman described as, "the worst year of my life."

------------------------

Bob Fujitani: ""It's Stan Lee. He's asking if I have any good stories for him." That always stuck in my mind. When I hear all these stories about what a great guy he was, I remember Charlie Biro saying, "That f--king Stan Lee, he's always calling me for stories. One of these days I'm going to tell him I want a cut of these things.""

-------------------

Remember how Stan has Shooter and then Houseroy ghost for him on the ASM newspaper strip that HE signs his own name to?

 

From the December, 1956 issue of WRITER'S DIGEST, more proof that even going into 1957 Stan had almost nothing to do with the fantasy titles - He didn't write them, he didn't even edit them. There were so may titles that even with all the known writers contributing, Timely was putting out ads for more writers!

 

 

"Timely Comics, Inc., 655 Madison Avenue, New York City 21, is second only to Dell in the comics field. It has 16 different fantasy-mystery titles at the present time, for which it needs material.

The title of each magazine indicates the kind of material wanted for it, and here's the list: Adventure Into Mystery, Astonishing, Marvel Tales, Mystic, Strange Tales, Uncanny Tales, Unknown Worlds, World of Mystery, World of Suspense, Journey Into Mystery, Mystery Tales, Mystical Tales, Spellbound, Strange Stories of Suspense, Strange Tales of the Unusual, World of Fantasy.

Alan Sulman is the --script Editor here. He requests that you do not send in completed scripts, or even synopses. Please write to him, setting forth your qualifications and ideas, and he will suggest how you should proceed. If you're in the New York area, it might be a good idea to telephone him at Templeton 8-7900.

Payment is in line with rates paid by other companies in the comics magazine field, and is made on acceptance."

---------------

John Buscema: I'm gonna tell you something. A situation like that killed Don Heck's career. He was demoralized because editors were on his back. He'd come to me practically in tears and ask me, "John what can I do to satisfy these guys." And Don was a talented guy, who's so great. It destroyed some people, but it didn't destroy me. I said if I can't work with Stan, I'll go somewhere else. To hell with Stan.

 

Don Heck: "At Marvel I used to draw characters with their mouths closed. That was the way it was always done in comics. Stan used to complain, "Hey, this guy is talking, and you've got his mouth closed." That was Stan, he probably couldn't find anything bigger to complain about. I mean an editor has to do something. Stan wasn't really a perfectionist, but there was this, 'There's got to be some reason for me being here!' "

-----------------

Edited March 10, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Here is a interview with John Buscema that talks about Lee's angry comments towards him regarding how he did Silver Surfer 4. Note he says Lee was tough to work with. Note when the issue was praised Lee did a turnaround and claimed he liked it. I have read about this many years but this seems be the only audio or visual clip regarding the incident. He also says very nice things about Kirby and his influence on comic books earlier in the video. The Kirby comment goes from around minutes 7 to 11. The Lee comments are from roughly about minutes 14 through 18.

 

 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:11 PM, Prince Namor said:

To be quite honest, I think MY version sounds more plausible than Stan's does.

That may or may not be, but your version is still in poor taste. Don't bring a person's wife into it. 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:53 PM, Prince Namor said:

If Stephen King's Editor says, "You should do a story about a rabid dog" and he writes Cujo, the entire thing - and the editor goes in and changes the dialogue and adds witty sayings like "That and two bits'll buy ya a cup of coffee, Bub!" - you think that makes them equal writing partners?

I'm assuming this means the "Marvel Method"--the artist plots and draws the story, after a story conference with Stan that may or may not have been very detailed, then gives the completed art to Stan, who then dialogues it--was actually used for these comics you say Stan didn't write? Because that makes Stan the co-writer. 

You can dislike Stan Lee all you want--and it seems that you really, really do dislike him--but I've read Kirby dialogue and I've read Stan Lee dialogue and I know for a fact which guy I want writing the words that come out of the characters' mouths. (Roy Thomas--Houseroy, as you disparagingly refer to him, taking after your infallible idol--also said that he would never have allowed Kirby to -script a book and it's for good reason.) Stan Lee's dialogue was more impactful and more important to Marvel than "That and two bits'll buy ya a cup of coffee, Bub" and you know it. If you don't consider dialogue writing to be actual writing, I'm not sure how to argue this point with you. Maybe erase all the word balloons in all your Lee/Kirby and Lee/Ditko comics and see how they read with no dialogue at all? (Maybe you don't think inkers are artists either, and all the books should be printed in pencil?)

On Kirby trying to claim ownership of Spider-Man--this is the one thing you haven't heard of? Seriously? Well, a simple Google search will give you the details. Let's just say that after the courts got involved, Kirby's estate still doesn't own Spider-Man. Attached is Steve Ditko's opinion of Kirby's lawsuit.

Here's the thing: I'm not going to argue with you anymore, because you aren't arguing in good faith. Your vitriol toward Stan Lee is apparent in these posts. This thread isn't really about you trying to fairly assign credit to creators, it's about tearing a man down and never giving him the benefit of the doubt. (He produced a written synopsis of FF 1? Obviously, it had to either be a forgery or he's lying about when it was written. Whatever.) You impugned not only his character, which I guess is to be expected, but his wife's as well, which was utterly lacking in class on your part. So, enjoy your tirade I guess, but I'm out.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Mark Warren

[shadroch]

Seriously, why don't ghost-writers get a by-line. 

Just in case anyone takes this stuff seriously.

[Prince Namor]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

I'm assuming this means the "Marvel Method"--the artist plots and draws the story, after a story conference with Stan that may or may not have been very detailed, then gives the completed art to Stan, who then dialogues it--was actually used for these comics you say Stan didn't write? Because that makes Stan the co-writer. 

At Marvel it does. At every other comic book publisher it's nothing more than what an editor does. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

You can dislike Stan Lee all you want--and it seems that you really, really do dislike him--but I've read Kirby dialogue

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't good. Stan was very adept at dumbing down the stories so people could follow easier concepts. Not everyone is content with that type of storytelling. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

and I've read Stan Lee dialogue and I know for a fact which guy I want writing the words that come out of the characters' mouths. (Roy Thomas--Houseroy, as you disparagingly refer to him, taking after your infallible idol--also said that he would never have allowed Kirby to --script a book and it's for good reason.)

Yeah. All Kirby did was create a whole new Universe of characters that DC still uses. 
 

What'd Stan do? Create She-Hulk? Stripperella?

Where'd his dialogue go? Funny how it went away...

What'd Roy Thomas go on to do???

 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

Stan Lee's dialogue was more impactful and more important to Marvel than "That and two bits'll buy ya a cup of coffee, Bub" and you know it. If you don't consider dialogue writing to be actual writing, I'm not sure how to argue this point with you. Maybe erase all the word balloons in all your Lee/Kirby and Lee/Ditko comics and see how they read with no dialogue at all?

Straw man. No one disputed that. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

(Maybe you don't think inkers are artists either, and all the books should be printed in pencil?)

Straw man. No one said anything remotely close to that. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

On Kirby trying to claim ownership of Spider-Man--this is the one thing you haven't heard of? Seriously? Well, a simple Google search will give you the details. Let's just say that after the courts got involved, Kirby's estate still doesn't own Spider-Man. Attached is Steve Ditko's opinion of Kirby's lawsuit.

Jack Kirby never sued Marvel for ownership of Spider-man. You're mistaken. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

Here's the thing: I'm not going to argue with you anymore, because you aren't arguing in good faith. Your vitriol toward Stan Lee is apparent in these posts. This thread isn't really about you trying to fairly assign credit to creators,

FAIRLY ASSIGN CREDIT to CREATORS?

hahahahahahahaha

Stan Lee spent the last 20+ years of his life saying he created ALL of it and then just assigned an artist. He LIED in a court of law and said this. 
 

I'm just responding to that BS.
 

You don't like it? Tough. Don't read it. 

On 3/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Mark Warren said:

it's about tearing a man down and never giving him the benefit of the doubt. (He produced a written synopsis of FF 1? Obviously, it had to either be a forgery or he's lying about when it was written. Whatever.) You impugned not only his character, which I guess is to be expected, but his wife's as well, which was utterly lacking in class on your part. So, enjoy your tirade I guess, but I'm out.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

[Prince Namor]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:24 PM, Mark Warren said:

That may or may not be, but your version is still in poor taste. Don't bring a person's wife into it. 

Poor taste is screwing over the people who made you successful. Stan Lee was a hack and a nobody until Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko changed his life. 
 

And he screwed them over. 
 

THAT is in poor taste. 

[mrc]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:04 AM, Prince Namor said:

Poor taste is screwing over the people who made you successful. Stan Lee was a hack and a nobody until Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko changed his life. 
 

And he screwed them over. 
 

THAT is in poor taste. 

You can't rewrite history by judging the past by today's standards. Everyone at Marvel had a job to do. Isn't it ironic that working with Stan at Marvel led to the enhanced value of Kirby's & Ditko's work. Kirby was earning the equivalent of $230k when he left Marvel in 1970. I wouldn't say that was being 'screwed over'. In later years even Kirby himself stated that he didn't hold any personal grudge against Stan.

Kirby's writing left a lot to be desired, and he needed someone like Stan to make the books work. It wasn’t until they started doing the superhero books that sales started to improve. Stan had a lot to do with the characterisation which was appropriate for the time. It was fresh and filled with mock irreverence. And that’s not Jack, that was Stan. Of course Jack was doing superb work as well.

No one screwed anyone over, because no one at that time could forsee how the comic book industry and fanbase would evolve over the next 60 yrs or so.

  

[Prince Namor]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

You can't rewrite history by judging the past by today's standards. Everyone at Marvel had a job to do. Isn't it ironic that working with Stan at Marvel led to the enhanced value of Kirby's & Ditko's work. Kirby was earning the equivalent of $230k when he left Marvel in 1970. I wouldn't say that was being 'screwed over'.

What Kirby 'earned' wasn't the issue.

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

In later years even Kirby himself stated that he didn't hold any personal grudge against Stan.

YOU are the one rewriting history. The Kirby's very much held a grudge. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

Kirby's writing left a lot to be desired,

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't good. Stan was very adept at dumbing down the stories so people could follow easier concepts. Not everyone is content with that type of storytelling. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

and he needed someone like Stan to make the books work. 

Based upon what? The 4th World is still in print. It's reprinted more than Silver Age Daredevil or Iron Man. 

The Monster books were Marvel's best sellers for a couple of years, Stan had nothing to do with them. 

Captain America in the Golden Age was a Million seller for Kirby. Boy Commandos was a Million selling book. Stan Lee had nothing to do with any of these. And he had ZERO hits leading up to the Silver Age. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

It wasn’t until they started doing the superhero books that sales started to improve.

YOU are the one rewriting history. We can SEE - the sales of the monster books - that Kirby wrote and penciled brought sales up enough to keep the company alive and then give him the chance to introduce superheroes. Without Kirby, Marvel never happens. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

Stan had a lot to do with the characterisation which was appropriate for the time. It was fresh and filled with mock irreverence. And that’s not Jack, that was Stan. Of course Jack was doing superb work as well.

Jack had been doing superb work for 20+ years previous. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

No one screwed anyone over, because no one at that time could forsee how the comic book industry and fanbase would evolve over the next 60 yrs or so.

You are so wrong. It has nothing to do with any of that. 

Kirby WROTE many of those stories. Ditko WROTE many of those stories. Romita WROTE many of those stories. Plain and simple FACT.

YOU can't dispute that. It's FACT.

Stan took the CREDIT and the PAY. He STOLE the CREDIT and the PAY.

THAT is screwing someone over.