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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ANATOMY OF A STORY:

...yep, because in July, the following month, DELL Comics put out Linda Lark Student Nurse #1 (with art by John Tartaglione, who worked for Mar vet right up until the implosion and then was at Charlto working with.... Vince Colletta!)

Not sure who painted that cover...

What in the world was going on here? How'd Vince Colletta talk Stan Lee into producing a 'Nurse' comic - a WHOLE NEW TITLE OF ITS OWN - while Marvel was struggling for sales, and MONSTER comics seemed to be its only selling books???

Well, it was all over pretty quick...

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Prince Namor

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On 12/2/2022 at 4:22 AM, Zonker said:

You've convinced me Challengers no doubt was on Kirby's mind when plotting/co-plotting/whatever FF #1.
But I don't follow how Marvel could have copied Supergirl, Superboy, Superman (essentially 3 copies of the same thing), or Batman for that matter.  DC had shown what could happen to a comics company that got too close to infringing on its IP when they sued Fawcett over Captain Marvel.  Not that I think DC would have won that case had Fawcett not folded, but surely a potentially expensive nuisance lawsuit was the last thing Goodman wanted, particularly since a superhero copy-cat was not at all guaranteed to succeed (considering their abortive relaunch of Captain America a few years earlier).
Seems more likely that Goodman was more receptive to the idea of trying superheroes by the success of not only the Superman & Batman related comics (which had continued to be successful enough throughout the 1950s), but by the new breed coming from DC, including the Flash, Green Lantern and the JLA.  It wasn't just about Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman anymore, so maybe by 1961 there was room for other superpowered characters to find an audience. 
And why not a team, while they were at it?  It would be a less risky bet than picking a single character that might or might not resonate with the audience in 1961.  So, you have the Human Torch as a straight superhero revival, the Thing as a continuation of the recent monster-themed books, and Reed & Sue as characters with fairly "safe," archetypical, easily understood powers.  Plus, a bit of soap opera potential, possibly to again hedge their bets on finding an audience.
So, the fabled golf game may never have happened, but I have to believe the business decision to go with FF#1 had a lot more to do with the books that were succeeding in 1960/1961 than a book launched years previously which as you note had its best days behind it by 1961.

Ok, so there's a lot here...

First... I don't mean copy OUTRIGHT, but which would be easier to do... come up with a whole team, or create a single character to focus on? Marvel had only done one super hero team book in its entire history (Young Allies, put together by Jack Kirby and others before him and Simon left Timely), what would suddenly posses them to think they could do that NOW?

Well... Kirby and his Challengers success. 

Second... the idea was already there with Goodman that KIRBY was making things happen. The sales numbers PROVE it.

Stan's sales prove he WASN'T. 

Stan, obviously doesn't want this to be known, as he makes up his own Origins to the Marvel Universe, because it goes against everything that he wants his followers to believe in that HE was the genius behind everything. 

Most Kirby historians believe that the FF most likely began with Challengers... but also with Kirby FIRST doing an UPDATED Human Torch story. JUST LIKE DC had 'updated' some of their characters. This would be turned into the Strange Tales series (and would explain the strange differences between it and the FF comic...)

He most likely also did some Captain America updated ideas, including how Cap survives and this would eventually be used as a part of the Avengers. 

Kirby had already proven he could make Sci-Fi and Monsters succeed, something Goodman had NEVER had success with, even in his pulp days, so it's very likely he was beginning to waver at the thought of trying superheroes again.

BUT...

He wanted to make sure MARVEL owned those characters and there was no 'contract' stipulating any ownership or royalties or whatever, just a handshake agreement with Lee, that if it took off, they'd take care of Jack.

Which it DID and which they didn't.

So they took a Kirby monster story, with a typical Kirby monster, a typical Kirby scientist, and his female assistant - adding the Thing and the new Human Torch and suddenly you had an unlikely 'team', who would challenge the unknown. 

Stan would just have to come up with his own version of how it happened to make it look like it was all HIM with the ideas. 

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Which brings up another question... if Stan talked to his wife and she convinced him to do comics 'his' way, why didn't Millie and Hedy and all of those books that weren't selling, ALSO change? He continued to write those books as he always had- same sense of humor and repeated jokes - same filler material with his signature (Stan Goldberg gets to sign the cover but NOT the story inside!)... let's look at them here, just before FF #1 and after...

From Millie the Model #104 (art by Stan Goldberg)

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Man, just as you think Kirby is running out of ideas, he hits us with Robots who gain conscious thought, the media turning it into a circus (sort of a JJJ prototype) - Conscious thinking robots building OTHER conscious thinking robots, planning to take over the world - and then turns it all on its head...

Amazing Adventures #4 - Kirby does the cover, writes and pencils this 2 part, 13 page story (as well as the Dr. Droom finale), all inked by D. Ayers.

Part ONE:

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Amazing Adventures #4 - Kirby does the cover, writes and pencils this 2 part, 13 page story (as well as the Dr. Droom finale), all inked by D. Ayers.

The last page includes: "Editor's Note: the story you have just read is, of course, pure fiction! At least, so the writer told us! But it made us stop and think -- and wonder!! How about you?" 

This seems to infuriate Lee who in July... begins to white out the Kirby + Ayers signatures on stories... Lee begins a campaign to let everyone know, HE is the one in charge - HE is the writer...

Part TWO:

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Strange Tales #88 - Kirby does the cover, plus writes and pencils this 2 part, 13 page lead story, all inked by STEVE DITKO!

I'm not sure where Kirby came up with this idea from, but there's an episode of the 1966 Ultraman series where the kids draw monsters in chalk on the sidewalk and they come to life...

Part TWO:

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Mmehdy

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This careful issue by issue, month by month, year by year analysis which I cannot recall every being done by anyone gives us a real perspective of what was actually done compared to what the hype has been or more accurately assumed that Stan really created it all. Again from my unique chance of seeing Stan autograph a original FF #12 page at SDCC with his showing of where is dialog that he wrote pointed out and his comment that a number of pages for some reason did not contain that...his emotional response which you could clearly see in face...showed that either he believed that his contributor as the writer had been undermined by recent opinions being expressed by the late Jack Kirby at that time he had passed away. Sometimes we ourselves can convince ourselves of a exaggeration and make it become part of our memory . Confirmation Bias have 3 types...one is based on a biased memory in which memory distortions are stored as exact replicas of reality. If I had to guess, I think Stan believed he did much more than he actually did. You evidence thus far is clearly showing this. I can hardly wait to we hit FF1 month and your commentary.

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Prince Namor

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On 12/3/2022 at 12:32 AM, Mmehdy said:

This careful issue by issue, month by month, year by year analysis which I cannot recall every being done by anyone gives us a real perspective of what was actually done compared to what the hype has been or more accurately assumed that Stan really created it all. Again from my unique chance of seeing Stan autograph a original FF #12 page at SDCC with his showing of where is dialog that he wrote pointed out and his comment that a number of pages for some reason did not contain that...his emotional response which you could clearly see in face...showed that either he believed that his contributor as the writer had been undermined by recent opinions being expressed by the late Jack Kirby at that time he had passed away. Sometimes we ourselves can convince ourselves of a exaggeration and make it become part of our memory . Confirmation Bias have 3 types...one is based on a biased memory in which memory distortions are stored as exact replicas of reality. If I had to guess, I think Stan believed he did much more than he actually did. You evidence thus far is clearly showing this. I can hardly wait to we hit FF1 month and your commentary.

Yeah, Stan was most definitely caught up in his own hype... he had to be. Marvel paid him $1 Million a year to keep the true believers believin'. 

And I suspect in those early issues he DID have a say so in some things, though an experienced storyteller like Kirby probably saw it as more of an annoyance than anything. Like... "Hey, MY comics have actually been selling over the last three years, YOURS haven't - and you're going to tell ME what works?"

Ditko tells a story how Stan wanted the Vulture to be bulky, as he felt a villain should look and Ditko wouldn't do it - didn't feel it fit the character - and that was on issue #2!!! And Ditko WASN'T the experienced storyteller and knew better!

But once Stan left the office and spent his time on the road speaking at colleges - Ditko wrote and drew some of the best ASM's ever and Kirby wrote and drew some of the best FF's and Thor's ever...you can almost pick it out specifically - early 1965 - Lee stops speaking with Ditko, and Ditko begins finally getting his 'plot' credit even though he's actually writing the entire book without input from Stan. From #24 on, the book is Ditko's baby, and it's some of the best ASM ever, including the finale of the Master Planner 3 part story (#33).

Within the first two months of Ditko's deal, Kirby is complaining about Daredevil as a guest star (Lee's go to gimmick) and wanting to do more Sci-fi, which Stan knows nothing about. Jack begins to turn the work in without imput from Lee, and Kirby begins the greatest run in the history of the FF - Inhumans, Galactus Trilogy with Silver Surfer, Black Panther... AND the greatest run on Thor ever!

By the end of the following year, Stan is signing his name to stuff but, giving Romita and Colan little to work with on ASM and DD and Iron Man (as well as Marie Severin on Doc Strange), and Kirby is doing FF and Thor on his own. Stan Goldberg is doing Millie on his own, with Gil Kane doing Captain America. Roy Thomas is writing Avengers, X-men, Sgt Fury...  Gary Freidrich is writing Ghost Rider - others on Two Gun Kid. The reprints start pouring in.

Ditko has left. Kirby is on automatic pilot. 

5 years in, and creatively speaking... the Marvel Age of Comics was actually over - it was all hype from there on out... 

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