When did the Fantastic Four lose popularity? 2 2

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:06 AM, D2 said:

The FF died in the 60s. Sorry to say.

So 70s FF til the end of Byrne run is garbage?

um....ok

Edited January 10, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[comicdiablo]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:27 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Also, X-Men and Spider-Man had great movies in the early 2000's. Fantastic Four's first one was alright, and the sequel blew chunks. That'll hurt your title's reputation.

I agree that the quality/popularity of the films thus far is a huge factor (as it is for other comic titles lately), especially the most recent one from 2015, which got so many things wrong. I enjoyed some aspects of the first two films (from 2005 and 2007), and at least they got a lot more right than the 2015 "reboot."

I think that it will be interesting to have this conversation again in 2025, after the Fantastic Four debut within the MCU. Personally, I believe that the FF has great potential to have some modern coolness injected into them and to appeal more to younger audiences, no less potential than Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man and the Wasp had prior to debuting in the MCU.

Edited January 10, 2023 by comicdiablo

[Hschwartz]

I'm with Ken on this one. I can't comment on the FF's decline since I haven't read most of the post 80's issues but I can comment on why I think they were so popular in the 60's. First off they were the first of the new breed of Superheroes that acted reasonably normal when they weren't out saving the universe. They argued about small things and petty jealousies when most DC heroes came across as people who never got mad or jealous unless provoked beyond all reason. More importantly in the era of Sputnik all Americans cared deeply about how our scientists were doing and whether we had fallen behind the Russians. What may seem trite now Reed Richards and his scientific abilities were the height of cool in 1962. Keep in mind that nearly every Marvel book between 1961-1963 had a scientist either as the hero or in a supporting role. The early FF's also had monsters in it and a touch of romance controversy before Ben Grimm found Alicia in FF8. Most importantly the team of Lee/Kirby did over a hundred issues together and never missed a deadline during that time. They grew with the characters and created some real masterpieces like the whole run from 36-51 which may have been the finest sustained run of any Superhero book ever. Just my 2 cents.

[ThothAmon]

No disrespect to She-Hulk but, as previously mentioned, it was a jump the shark moment when she took over for the Thing. No other era compares to SA ff storylines truthfully. 

[zosocane]

I think when X-Men exploded in the late 70s/early 80s, FF was no longer that top-tier super-hero team for Marvel.  Even with Byrne's epic run, everyone wanted X-Men, X-Men, X-Men.  Byrne if anything propped it up and held it up as long as he could.  After he left, it just declined further (slowly but surely).  Avengers always had the benefit of rolling in new team members to keep things fresh.  That's something FF never really could do, except on a very limited basis (e.g., She-Hulk).

[shadroch]

I've considered FF to be a second tier book since the late 1970s. Certainly by the mid 80s, it was a minor book.  Byrne's run was a minor pop but didn't really stick.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 10:06 AM, D2 said:

The FF were dinosaurs when *I* was a kid. There was literally no interest put on the FF in the 80s. Go back and collect now. What FF book are you buying from the 80s?

 

The 80s, in my opinion, is probably one of the best decades for comics, Period.
Batman, X-Men, Wolverine, and Spider-Man all had very dedicated and defining moments in the 80s, which kept their interest going. 
The FF died in the 60s. Sorry to say.

Then why did FF outsell all the non-mutant Marvel hero titles? Even ASM couldn't consistently beat it until later in the decade, though the numbers were fairly close.

[shadroch]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:13 PM, Lazyboy said:

Then why did FF outsell all the non-mutant Marvel hero titles? Even ASM couldn't consistently beat it until later in the decade, though the numbers were fairly close.

The FF was never a big seller in my shops.  A couple of issues sold well-200, first couple of Byrne issues, 249,250, 263 but it was a middlin' title.

[shadroch]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:13 PM, Lazyboy said:

Then why did FF outsell all the non-mutant Marvel hero titles? Even ASM couldn't consistently beat it until later in the decade, though the numbers were fairly close.

The FF was never a big seller in my shops.  A couple of issues sold well-200, first couple of Byrne issues, 249,250, 263 but it was a middlin' title.

[thehumantorch]

Certainly the Kirby era was the best and the BA books following Kirby were actually wonderful and underappreciated and there were some great characters introduced and many great covers.  Byrne's run was fun to read and there were other high moments in the run.  I finally quit buying the run after 25 years of picking it up off the stands or in my pull list because in my opinion it had become unreadable.  Too many family members and hangers on and incomprehensible storylines.

For the purpose of this argument, I'd suggest that FF started losing popularity late in the kirby run, let's call it issue #75.  Spider-man had become dominate and I just don't think many people were talking about FF anymore and new cool titles were on the horizon. 

[Cat]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:25 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

When was the last time that FF had a great run to entice old and new readers alike? X-Men had many standouts just prior to the 90's, and then I recall the reboot being well-received (myself included). Same for Spider-Man, with McFarlane.

Marvel uses Doctor Doom in crossovers too often, which hurts the Fantastic Four title, as he's their greatest villain.

The Hickman run was the last great run. That should be essential reading for all fans, it's such a good read. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:18 AM, Ken Aldred said:

The 90s period by De Falco and Ryan was poorly received, so I suppose that might have been the start of it.

That said, some very nice runs following on from that; Carlos Pacheco, Waid / Wieringo, Hickman, and so still a series well worth reading.

The DeFalco/Ryan era is MY era, so much nostalgia for it. It constantly kept you on your toes, and wasn't afraid to play with the status quo. It really developed Sue into a strong leader, great to see. It really did a lot, but gets no credit. Shame, it does deserve a bit better than what it gets. Still, not one of the best runs, but certainly one of my favourite. 

[jjonahjameson11]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:13 PM, Lazyboy said:

Then why did FF outsell all the non-mutant Marvel hero titles? Even ASM couldn't consistently beat it until later in the decade, though the numbers were fairly close.

FF didnt outsell Spidey.

FF + The Thing + MTIO < ASM + PPTSS + MTU + Web

Spidey titles outsold FF titles by a significant amount

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:38 PM, Cat said:

The Hickman run was the last great run. That should be essential reading for all fans, it's such a good read.

There was a void of good runs, then, between the 80's and Hickman's in 2009?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:39 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

FF didnt outsell Spidey.

FF + The Thing + MTIO < ASM + PPTSS + MTU + Web

Spidey titles outsold FF titles by a significant amount

That's not what I said. I said the other non-mutant Marvel hero titles couldn't outsell the FF title. Spidey was obviously a more popular character.

[Gonzimodo]

I started reading Marvel in 1984, and even though I liked the comic a lot and loved Byrne, and even though they had their own ongoing book, the FF kind of felt like a supporting cast to the rest of the Marvel Universe.  Got a problem you can't figure out?  Head on over to the Baxter Building and see if Reed can help.  I don't really know how to properly express it, but to me they just didn't feel like they were really the big movers and shakers in the Marvel Universe even then.

[Krismusic]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:27 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Also, X-Men and Spider-Man had great movies in the early 2000's. Fantastic Four's first one was alright, and the sequel blew chunks. That'll hurt your title's reputation.

100 percent true. Also spidey and x men had their animated series in the 90s. That many loved and followed! 
Only thing I would say is that even the first ff4 movie wasn’t alright I didn’t like it much. 

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:38 PM, Cat said:

 

The DeFalco/Ryan era is MY era, so much nostalgia for it. It constantly kept you on your toes, and wasn't afraid to play with the status quo. It really developed Sue into a strong leader, great to see. It really did a lot, but gets no credit. Shame, it does deserve a bit better than what it gets. Still, not one of the best runs, but certainly one of my favourite. 

I agree.  Quite readable, despite the criticism.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[Cat]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:44 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

There was a void of good runs, then, between the 80's and Hickman's in 2009?

Mark Waid had a really good run too. The Pacheco run was okay. Umm.... 

[lizards2]

FF was popular?

I thought they were just a Challengers knockoff...., 

[Zonker]

Even in its heyday, wasn't a lot of the excitement about the FF related to all the other characters Kirby brought into the mix, using the FF as his platform?  Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, the Inhumans, Warlock, the Watchers, Doctor Doom, the return of the Sub-Mariner, etc.  Most of those other concepts graduated to their own series outside the FF, and with Kirby gone, there wasn't much of a reason to continue to use the FF as Marvel's launching pad for new concepts.  The quartet itself is kind of limited for dramatic potential compared to the angsty X-Men, Spider-Man, etc.  Reed has grey hair.  He and Sue have been in a mostly stable relationship -- are they grandparents yet?  The Thing being stuck in a monster's body was pretty much mined for all the angst available in the Lee-Kirby days, and I'm not sure how many times a new creative team can go back to that particular well.  Reading wikipedia just now, it seems they've given most of the soap opera storylines to Johnny Storm in recent years.  So there's only so many ways you can bend the 4-person family dynamic without breaking it, and if you have your big ideas for external menaces now always turning into company-wide crossovers, it's not clear what niche the FF is supposed to occupy in today's world.