Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/13/2023 at 12:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

Never read any of them either, but never heard anyone praising them...It DOES seem funny though... the genius who co-created Thor (yeah, ok), Ant-Man, and Iron Man, was never assigned another superhero after that... he was relegated to the Rawhide Kid, a book that featured a 5 to 8 page reprint every issue.

(He also did 4 ten page Dr. Doom stories, three with Wally Wood (another guy known for writing his own stuff) in 1971, and some odds and ends here and there.)

It's pretty easy to see through 

Larry also "illustrated" the Spider-Man newspaper strip from 1986 to September 2018. The guy's art was subpar for that whole time. For someone who drew comics for roughly 60 years, his art never progressed beyond sub-mediocre.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1640282

Edited June 12, 2023 by Steven Valdez
addition

[Prince Namor]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:59 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Larry also "illustrated" the Spider-Man newspaper strip from 1986 to September 2018. The guy's art was subpar for that whole time. For someone who drew comics for roughly 60 years, his art never progressed beyond sub-mediocre.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1640282

OMG... yeah, that is not good. 

I was discussing with someone the other day the thought process that Roy Thomas, who was the ghost writer for Stan on that newspaper strip for many years (after others had done it), may have begun ghost writing for Stan as early as the Silver Age. Why wouldn't he? Stan has shown a strong desire to get others to do his work throughout his career...

And Roy has threatened on more than one occasion when he felt he was being done wrong on things, that he could reveal some damaging info if he chose to...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

And the Justice League was NOT the 'fulcrum' of the Silver Age, that's insane. It wasn't even one of the best selling books. 

It was #13, of the books that WERE listed. It sold almost half million LESS copies per month than DC's best selling Superman comics and 150,000 copies less per month than the 7TH RANKED Superman comic (Adventure Comics). I

Granted, it was about the highest-ranked DC book that Goodman could copy without raising DC's ire.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:21 AM, Prince Namor said:

OMG... yeah, that is not good. 

I was discussing with someone the other day the thought process that Roy Thomas, who was the ghost writer for Stan on that newspaper strip for many years (after others had done it), may have begun ghost writing for Stan as early as the Silver Age. Why wouldn't he? Stan has shown a strong desire to get others to do his work throughout his career...

And Roy has threatened on more than one occasion when he felt he was being done wrong on things, that he could reveal some damaging info if he chose to...

I've wondered if S. Lee had a ghostwriter in the Silver Age as well. Some of his comments in interviews made it sound like he wasn't all that familiar with his characters or storylines. I hadn't considered Roy Thomas before, interesting.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/12/2023 at 4:19 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Granted, it was about the highest-ranked DC book that Goodman could copy without raising DC's ire.

It doesn't make sense to copy ANYTHING that any one else is doing if Kirby is, as he says he was, showing them his 'blitzkrieg' of ideas. 

Stan's explanation is simply another LIE, to downplay Kirby's part. 

Kirby had been creating new and ideas for the last 20 years and would create new ideas almost up until the day he died.

His Challengers of the Unknown and re-imagining of Green Arrow had only been a couple of years prior - and the only thing that held him back was Goodman.

Stan's story is a blatant lie. Like most everything else he says. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:55 PM, Steven Valdez said:

I've wondered if S. Lee had a ghostwriter in the Silver Age as well. Some of his comments in interviews made it sound like he wasn't all that familiar with his characters or storylines. I hadn't considered Roy Thomas before, interesting.

Think about it... Stan long took advantage of people to do HIS work. Along comes Roy Thomas - Super Fan - eager to please and wanting badly to get into comics... moderately talented, based upon years of reading comics... easily molded into... Houseroy.

Stan didn't DO much in the 50's. He had other editors and writers who performed most of the actual work. He simply oversaw it and acted as the in-between to Goodman. After the implosion he was suddenly thrust into having to do EVERYTHING... and he would've run it right into the ground. 

Kirby was the perfect tool... Ditko became a great tool... and then Romita and even BETTER tool when Ditko left. And then, when it was all running smooth, Thomas was the final piece. Stan could be a celebrity while everyone put it together. Heck, when he LEFT and went to Hollywood eventually, they STILL listed every book as 'Stan Lee presents". He had ZERO to do with it and was still taking credit.

Makes perfect sense. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:02 AM, Prince Namor said:

Think about it... Stan long took advantage of people to do HIS work. Along comes Roy Thomas - Super Fan - eager to please and wanting badly to get into comics... moderately talented, based upon years of reading comics... easily molded into... Houseroy.

Stan didn't DO much in the 50's. He had other editors and writers who performed most of the actual work. He simply oversaw it and acted as the in-between to Goodman. After the implosion he was suddenly thrust into having to do EVERYTHING... and he would've run it right into the ground. 

Kirby was the perfect tool... Ditko became a great tool... and then Romita and even BETTER tool when Ditko left. And then, when it was all running smooth, Thomas was the final piece. Stan could be a celebrity while everyone put it together. Heck, when he LEFT and went to Hollywood eventually, they STILL listed every book as 'Stan Lee presents". He had ZERO to do with it and was still taking credit.

Makes perfect sense. 

I remember someone saying that S. Lee's wife Joan was his ghostwriter at some point. Seems crazy, but who knows?

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:56 AM, Prince Namor said:

It doesn't make sense to copy ANYTHING that any one else is doing if Kirby is, as he says he was, showing them his 'blitzkrieg' of ideas. 

Stan's explanation is simply another LIE, to downplay Kirby's part. 

Kirby had been creating new and ideas for the last 20 years and would create new ideas almost up until the day he died.

His Challengers of the Unknown and re-imagining of Green Arrow had only been a couple of years prior - and the only thing that held him back was Goodman.

Stan's story is a blatant lie. Like most everything else he says. 

Yep, Kirby said he went into Marvel, made a presentation to Stan Lee that included AT LEAST Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor and Iron Man.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:02 PM, Prince Namor said:

Think about it... Stan long took advantage of people to do HIS work. Along comes Roy Thomas - Super Fan - eager to please and wanting badly to get into comics... moderately talented, based upon years of reading comics... easily molded into... Houseroy.

Stan didn't DO much in the 50's. He had other editors and writers who performed most of the actual work. He simply oversaw it and acted as the in-between to Goodman. After the implosion he was suddenly thrust into having to do EVERYTHING... and he would've run it right into the ground. 

Kirby was the perfect tool... Ditko became a great tool... and then Romita and even BETTER tool when Ditko left. And then, when it was all running smooth, Thomas was the final piece. Stan could be a celebrity while everyone put it together. Heck, when he LEFT and went to Hollywood eventually, they STILL listed every book as 'Stan Lee presents". He had ZERO to do with it and was still taking credit.

Makes perfect sense. 

Early Roy Thomas (ca. 1966 on Avengers and X-men) reads a lot like Stan Lee dialogue. By 1968-69 (later Avengers and X-men), his distinct voice begins to come through--far wordier and "literate" (pretentious) than Stan.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:56 PM, Prince Namor said:

It doesn't make sense to copy ANYTHING that any one else is doing if Kirby is, as he says he was, showing them his 'blitzkrieg' of ideas. 

Stan's explanation is simply another LIE, to downplay Kirby's part. 

Kirby had been creating new and ideas for the last 20 years and would create new ideas almost up until the day he died.

His Challengers of the Unknown and re-imagining of Green Arrow had only been a couple of years prior - and the only thing that held him back was Goodman.

Stan's story is a blatant lie. Like most everything else he says. 

Still, it's pretty easy to come up with a book that puts all of your star characters together to form a team, once someone else has created the characters first. The Avengers, like Justice League over at DC, features the company's second-line characters (at the time). They even had Rick Jones as a less annoying version of Snapper Carr.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:57 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Still, it's pretty easy to come up with a book that puts all of your star characters together to form a team, once someone else has created the characters first. The Avengers, like Justice League over at DC, features the company's second-line characters (at the time). They even had Rick Jones as a less annoying version of Snapper Carr.

And I think that's possibly where the JLA story comes from, though... that makes it look as if they actually WERE copying DC and that's not what Stan wanted to be shown. He needed a REASON to show where the FF suddenly sprang from HIS mind. 

Marvel Zombie's when asked how Stan Lee, after years of no creative output suddenly came up with the FF, use "Well Goodman wanted a JLA..." as one of their flimsy excuses. Part of the lie has already been dashed (the golf game), and the logical story (a progression of Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown) is just ignored. Completely bizarre to me that it's still referenced.

As an answer to the Avengers? Sure. Makes sense. As an answer to the FF? No way. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:36 AM, Prince Namor said:

As an answer to the Avengers? Sure. Makes sense. As an answer to the FF? No way. 

I suspect that the Avengers was a lot closer to what Goodman was hoping for in 1961: a derivative, frothy team book. Instead, mainly through Jack's initiative, he got the FF--something almost unprecedented in superhero comics.

[Zonker]

On 6/13/2023 at 4:35 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I suspect that the Avengers was a lot closer to what Goodman was hoping for in 1961: a derivative, frothy team book. Instead, mainly through Jack's initiative, he got the FF--something almost unprecedented in superhero comics.

I can't remember if I linked to this back in the 1961 thread, but it is important to note that while Michael Uslan debunked the Goodman-Liebowitz (or Donenfeld) golf game, he did offer an alternative explanation that makes a bit more sense:

Uslan, in a letter published in Alter Ego #43 (December 2004), pp. 43–44, writes: "Irwin Donenfeld said he never played golf with Goodman, so the story is untrue. I heard this story more than a couple of times while sitting in the lunchroom at DC's 909 Third Avenue and 75 Rockefeller Plaza office as Sol Harrison and [production chief] Jack Adler were schmoozing with some of us... who worked for DC during our college summers.... [T]he way I heard the story from Sol was that Goodman was playing with one of the heads of Independent News, not DC Comics (though DC owned Independent News). ... As the distributor of DC Comics, this man certainly knew all the sales figures and was in the best position to tell this tidbit to Goodman. ... Of course, Goodman would want to be playing golf with this fellow and be in his good graces. ... Sol worked closely with Independent News' top management over the decades and would have gotten this story straight from the horse's mouth."

[Prince Namor]

It's strange that in 1960, Uncle Scrooge and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories sold over a MILLION copies each... the two best selling comics of the next 30 years, and yet not a peep out of Martin Goodman to try and copy them.

THIS, from a guy who would've, I guess green lit Homer the Happy Ghost (a pretty straight up rip off of Casper the Friendly Ghost) and Melvin the Monster (a pretty straight up rip off of Dennis the Menace) a few years earlier...

Marvel had a HISTORY of funny animal comics, and yet... not a peep. 

If Martin Goodman was trying to keep his company afloat... why wouldn't he try and imitate something truly successful, as he'd done for years?

Because the truth is, Goodman wasn't trying to build anything.

Goodman wanted to shut down the comics division of his company and when JL Mast's book finally comes out we'll see the documents that show that as late as Fall of 1961 he was making plans to do just that. 

Of course, Stanley fans will come up with some other reason that it had to of happened and he'd seen that JLA and had to copy it blah blah blah blah blah   

They MUST have a way to show it was Stan! Stan! Stan!

Even if FF in no way resembles the JLA and yet DOES resemble the Challengers of the Unknown.

SHERMAN: As the fifties drew to a close, the super-heroes began to return. When you began the Challengers of the Unknown, were you striving more for a super-hero rebirth or for breaking into science fiction and adventure material more?

KIRBY: The issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for what DC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when I left. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF.

From Steve Sherman - Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Convention program book. - Reprinted in The Jack Kirby Collector #8, January 1996.

 

Independent news didn't limit what Marvel could publish, Martin Goodman did. Because he didn't want to spend any more money on the company. Stanley, who's never been creative in his entire life, and after 1970 would prove to never show any real creativity again just didn't have what it takes to keep things afloat. 

Kirby pointed it out as early as 1982:

“Marvel was going to close,” Kirby recalls. “When I broke up with Joe, comics everywhere were taking a beating. The ones with capital hung on. Martin Goodman [publisher of Marvel] had slick paper magazines, like Swank and the rest. It was just as easy for Martin to say, ‘Oh, what the hell. Why do comics at all?’ And he was about to—Stan Lee told me so. In fact, it looked like they were going to close the afternoon that I came up. But Goodman gave Marvel another chance.”

-From “Kirby Takes on the Comics,” Comics Scene #2, March 1982.

Others pointed it out too:

In my Interview with artist Drew Friedman this year, he told me:

"I can’t really speak for my dad who died two years ago, but he always told me he liked Stan very much, Stan’s office was right next to my dads so they saw each other all day, and he did feel bad for him during those lean years for Atlas comics because he felt the company’s owner Martin Goodman was trying his best to humiliate Stan by constantly downsizing his office and his assistants, attempting to phase out the comics line altogether without actually going as far as firing him, probably because he was the cousin of Goodman’s wife. My dad said he really admired how Stan held on, held his ground, even when he was down to the lone desk in a cubicle, one secretary, and hardly anyone else around him. Of course Stan would later have the last laugh when Marvel exploded in the sixties."

And Dick Ayers said:

"Things started to get really bad in 1958. One day when I went in Stan looked at me and said, "Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn't even say hello to me." He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, "You know, it's like a sinking ship and we're the rats, and we've got to get off."

But of course, the greatest authority on all of it...

Michael J. Vassallo: “…when Stan was Goodman’s only employee in the comic book division, it was because his entire comic book line imploded due the loss of his distributor. This was April of 1957. He cut down from nearly 75 titles down to 16, and the 16 were filled with nothing but inventory for nearly an entire year. Everyone was fired. There was no production staff because there was no production. When the inventory began to run out, Goodman allowed the purchase of new teen humor and western material. Stan wrote the teen and the main western characters. This plodded on until June of 1958 when Joe Maneely died.

Within one or two days of Maneely’s death (and I know this because job number analysis puts it at 2 days at most) Jack was back and the line immediately expanded to include new science fantasy titles like Strange Worlds, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense. Additionally, Strange Tales and a revived Journey Into Mystery converted from inventory to new science fantasy material. Now Martin Goodman hated science Fiction and it failed with him at every level since his pulp days. Evidence point to the fact that it was Jack Kirby who pushed this new direction because it was what he knew best. It was what he was doing elsewhere at DC until very recently, as well as his syndicated Sky Masters strip. He saw it as the way to go. So Goodman relented and the new titles were launched. Stan did not write any of these stories. He was busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and their ilk, as well as Two-Gun Kid and Kid Colt. (Only since 1958 did he write these western characters. From 1948 to 1957 they were written by other Timely/Atlas writers). The first year’s scripts came from re-tooled, undrawn inventory sitting in a pile since early 1957. I’ve identified some of these from Carl Wessler’s work records, and there were a ton of writers’ scripts piled up when the work stoppage went into effect in April/57.

After a year the inventoried scripts ran out and the line changed to the monster comics we all know in 1959-60. Again, Stan didn’t -script any of them. He was too busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and the two western characters. Jack Kirby’s lead stories were mostly plotted by himself. Larry Lieber says he typed up scripts but my feeling is he was typing up scripts Jack had already plotted. Jack, had been turning out tons of sci-fi and monsters on his own for years. Why would he need a novice writer (which Larry was) to funnel him story ideas?? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So this plods on until sales slip and Jack begins pushing for superheroes to return, as he said he was since 1958, and getting nowhere. He brought in a blitzkrieg of new characters, the first one which was a super powered take on a book he had done for DC, the Challengers of the Unknown. The rest, as we say, is history. After deep diving into the published history and careers of both creators for 30 years now, there’s no other way I can see this coming about. I do not believe the official version told since the Origins books in 1974. From a factual historical data perspective, they make no sense whatsoever. Neither does a side by side comparison of both creator’s entire careers. You’ve got to approach this like a course in medieval comparative literature, coming in with no set agenda and allowing the historical published evidence to help guide your deductions, not emotions."

 

 

The truth, once again is in the books - the comic books themselves - Jack Kirby, doing what he's always done creating stories that sell.  keeping Marvel afloat with his ideas. Jack would've been pushing for some type of adventure, comic or superhero comic from the very beginning that's what he did. It's what he always did. 

Superhero or Adventure type of comics that Stan Lee did from 1950 to 1961: ZERO.

Superhero or Adventure type of comics that Jack Kirby did from 1950 to 1961:

Boys Ranch (1950-1951)

Captain 3-D (1953)

Fighting American (1954-1955)

Bulls-Eye (1954-1955)

Stuntman (1955)

Yellow Claw (1956)

Challengers of the Unknown (1957-1959)

Race for the Moon (1958) 

Green Arrow (1958)

 

It's a million times more obvious than any made up story about a golf game or JLA. Stan CREATED those lies to put HIMSELF into the creation. 

Did Stan have his part in the FF? Most definitely. 

Did he create it based on Goodman saying 'copy the JLA!'...?

No. It didn't happen that way. And there's nothing, other than a lie Stan has already been caught in, trying to pretend it did. 

[Zonker]

I'm pretty sure we are repeating the discussion from the 1961 thread.  I'll just say again I think the Walt Disney name on the cover was a big part of the  selling appeal of the Ducks books, plus of course the talent of Carl Barks, neither of which would be available for Goodman & co. 

And there is nothing incompatible with the idea that the FF was largely Jack's idea, but that the emerging success of the DC superheroes might have been the push Goodman needed to finally green-light Jack's ideas (since we otherwise don't really know what made Goodman change his mind to not shut things down for good, despite Jack apparently trying to convince Goodman since 1958 that Jack had a winning strategy). 

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:46 AM, Prince Namor said:

It's strange that in 1960, Uncle Scrooge and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories sold over a MILLION copies each... the two best selling comics of the next 30 years, and yet not a peep out of Martin Goodman to try and copy them.

THIS, from a guy who would've, I guess green lit Homer the Happy Ghost (a pretty straight up rip off of Casper the Friendly Ghost) and Melvin the Monster (a pretty straight up rip off of Dennis the Menace) a few years earlier...

Marvel had a HISTORY of funny animal comics, and yet... not a peep. 

If Martin Goodman was trying to keep his company afloat... why wouldn't he try and imitate something truly successful, as he'd done for years?

Because the truth is, Goodman wasn't trying to build anything.

Goodman wanted to shut down the comics division of his company and when JL Mast's book finally comes out we'll see the documents that show that as late as Fall of 1961 he was making plans to do just that. 

Of course, Stanley fans will come up with some other reason that it had to of happened and he'd seen that JLA and had to copy it blah blah blah blah blah   

They MUST have a way to show it was Stan! Stan! Stan!

Even if FF in no way resembles the JLA and yet DOES resemble the Challengers of the Unknown.

SHERMAN: As the fifties drew to a close, the super-heroes began to return. When you began the Challengers of the Unknown, were you striving more for a super-hero rebirth or for breaking into science fiction and adventure material more?

KIRBY: The issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for what DC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when I left. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF.

From Steve Sherman - Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Convention program book. - Reprinted in The Jack Kirby Collector #8, January 1996.

 

Independent news didn't limit what Marvel could publish, Martin Goodman did. Because he didn't want to spend any more money on the company. Stanley, who's never been creative in his entire life, and after 1970 would prove to never show any real creativity again just didn't have what it takes to keep things afloat. 

Kirby pointed it out as early as 1982:

“Marvel was going to close,” Kirby recalls. “When I broke up with Joe, comics everywhere were taking a beating. The ones with capital hung on. Martin Goodman [publisher of Marvel] had slick paper magazines, like Swank and the rest. It was just as easy for Martin to say, ‘Oh, what the hell. Why do comics at all?’ And he was about to—Stan Lee told me so. In fact, it looked like they were going to close the afternoon that I came up. But Goodman gave Marvel another chance.”

-From “Kirby Takes on the Comics,” Comics Scene #2, March 1982.

Others pointed it out too:

In my Interview with artist Drew Friedman this year, he told me:

"I can’t really speak for my dad who died two years ago, but he always told me he liked Stan very much, Stan’s office was right next to my dads so they saw each other all day, and he did feel bad for him during those lean years for Atlas comics because he felt the company’s owner Martin Goodman was trying his best to humiliate Stan by constantly downsizing his office and his assistants, attempting to phase out the comics line altogether without actually going as far as firing him, probably because he was the cousin of Goodman’s wife. My dad said he really admired how Stan held on, held his ground, even when he was down to the lone desk in a cubicle, one secretary, and hardly anyone else around him. Of course Stan would later have the last laugh when Marvel exploded in the sixties."

And Dick Ayers said:

"Things started to get really bad in 1958. One day when I went in Stan looked at me and said, "Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn't even say hello to me." He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, "You know, it's like a sinking ship and we're the rats, and we've got to get off."

But of course, the greatest authority on all of it...

Michael J. Vassallo: “…when Stan was Goodman’s only employee in the comic book division, it was because his entire comic book line imploded due the loss of his distributor. This was April of 1957. He cut down from nearly 75 titles down to 16, and the 16 were filled with nothing but inventory for nearly an entire year. Everyone was fired. There was no production staff because there was no production. When the inventory began to run out, Goodman allowed the purchase of new teen humor and western material. Stan wrote the teen and the main western characters. This plodded on until June of 1958 when Joe Maneely died.

Within one or two days of Maneely’s death (and I know this because job number analysis puts it at 2 days at most) Jack was back and the line immediately expanded to include new science fantasy titles like Strange Worlds, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense. Additionally, Strange Tales and a revived Journey Into Mystery converted from inventory to new science fantasy material. Now Martin Goodman hated science Fiction and it failed with him at every level since his pulp days. Evidence point to the fact that it was Jack Kirby who pushed this new direction because it was what he knew best. It was what he was doing elsewhere at DC until very recently, as well as his syndicated Sky Masters strip. He saw it as the way to go. So Goodman relented and the new titles were launched. Stan did not write any of these stories. He was busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and their ilk, as well as Two-Gun Kid and Kid Colt. (Only since 1958 did he write these western characters. From 1948 to 1957 they were written by other Timely/Atlas writers). The first year’s scripts came from re-tooled, undrawn inventory sitting in a pile since early 1957. I’ve identified some of these from Carl Wessler’s work records, and there were a ton of writers’ scripts piled up when the work stoppage went into effect in April/57.

After a year the inventoried scripts ran out and the line changed to the monster comics we all know in 1959-60. Again, Stan didn’t --script any of them. He was too busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and the two western characters. Jack Kirby’s lead stories were mostly plotted by himself. Larry Lieber says he typed up scripts but my feeling is he was typing up scripts Jack had already plotted. Jack, had been turning out tons of sci-fi and monsters on his own for years. Why would he need a novice writer (which Larry was) to funnel him story ideas?? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So this plods on until sales slip and Jack begins pushing for superheroes to return, as he said he was since 1958, and getting nowhere. He brought in a blitzkrieg of new characters, the first one which was a super powered take on a book he had done for DC, the Challengers of the Unknown. The rest, as we say, is history. After deep diving into the published history and careers of both creators for 30 years now, there’s no other way I can see this coming about. I do not believe the official version told since the Origins books in 1974. From a factual historical data perspective, they make no sense whatsoever. Neither does a side by side comparison of both creator’s entire careers. You’ve got to approach this like a course in medieval comparative literature, coming in with no set agenda and allowing the historical published evidence to help guide your deductions, not emotions."

 

 

The truth, once again is in the books - the comic books themselves - Jack Kirby, doing what he's always done creating stories that sell.  keeping Marvel afloat with his ideas. Jack would've been pushing for some type of adventure, comic or superhero comic from the very beginning that's what he did. It's what he always did. 

Superhero or Adventure type of comics that Stan Lee did from 1950 to 1961: ZERO.

Superhero or Adventure type of comics that Jack Kirby did from 1950 to 1961:

Boys Ranch (1950-1951)

Captain 3-D (1953)

Fighting American (1954-1955)

Bulls-Eye (1954-1955)

Stuntman (1955)

Yellow Claw (1956)

Challengers of the Unknown (1957-1959)

Race for the Moon (1958) 

Green Arrow (1958)

 

It's a million times more obvious than any made up story about a golf game or JLA. Stan CREATED those lies to put HIMSELF into the creation. 

Did Stan have his part in the FF? Most definitely. 

Did he create it based on Goodman saying 'copy the JLA!'...?

No. It didn't happen that way. And there's nothing, other than a lie Stan has already been caught in, trying to pretend it did. 

Goodman possibly said 'copy JLA' in 1963, once the Marvel characters were already established in solo stories. S. Lee then manipulated the story to suit his own narrative.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:30 PM, Zonker said:

I'm pretty sure we are repeating the discussion from the 1961 thread.  I'll just say again I think the Walt Disney name on the cover was a big part of the  selling appeal of the Ducks books, plus of course the talent of Carl Barks, neither of which would be available for Goodman & co. 

It never stopped them before. They copied anything and everything except superheroes. 

On 6/13/2023 at 9:30 PM, Zonker said:

And there is nothing incompatible with the idea that the FF was largely Jack's idea, but that the emerging success of the DC superheroes

Was it emerging success in 1961?

Superman, Batman, Superboy, and the others had been selling 400,000+ copies for 20 years. The 'new' superheroes included JLA (335,000), Flash (305,000), and Green Lantern (255,000). That's pretty close to Wonder Woman numbers (230,000). Turok, Son of Stone for Dell sold better than that (377,000). Blackhawk sold 305,000 - as good as Flash and better than the others! Tarzan sold half a million copies!!!

Marvel didn't have the DC name or Carmine Infantino or Gil Kane... what would make them think they could copy even that moderate success??? Would Goodman bet his company on the hope that a team of superheroes, that didn't even LOOK like superheroes, could match those numbers?

No way. 

On 6/13/2023 at 9:30 PM, Zonker said:

might have been the push Goodman needed to finally green-light Jack's ideas (since we otherwise don't really know what made Goodman change his mind to not shut things down for good, despite Jack apparently trying to convince Goodman since 1958 that Jack had a winning strategy). 

I firmly believe they published FF #1 as NOT a superhero book to sneak it under Goodman's nose. That was one of the reasons why they didn't have costumes. With the success of the book, the only Marvel title to break 200,000 copies, it might have made Goodman say, "Ok, I'll give this a shot".

I honestly don't think he cared prior to that. I honestly don't think he was looking for a 'solution' to keep it going. I honestly don't think he had any confidence in Stan. But the reaction and success of it... and they would've gotten final numbers on it around the time he shut down in 1961, would've been the thing that made him reconsider.

Copying the JLA on the promise that it would BE something... no... he'd have been far too jaded at that point to listen to that. The monster books did just enough. There was no sales fever over the new DC heroes. Fanboy's maybe, but in terms of the numbers, it just wasn't all THAT great. And there was no guarantee that they could match that, even if they did copy it.

Goodman's whole M.O. was not about QUALITY... it was always about QUANTITY. Just glut the newsstand with as much generic material as you can and crowd out the other guy. He liked Westerns. He hated Sci-Fi, and he didn't much care for Superheroes now that they didn't sell for him. 

None of Stan's story rings true to me. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:21 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Goodman possibly said 'copy JLA' in 1963, once the Marvel characters were already established in solo stories. S. Lee then manipulated the story to suit his own narrative.

I find it hard to tell how hands-on Goodman was with the comics division (since it seems he kept trying to shut it down around this time), but I could imagine a scenario where he requested superheroes from his editor in 1961 based on DC's success, got the FF, which (despite its relative sales success) didn't fit the bill for him, and tried again in mid-1963 ("and get it RIGHT this time, Lee!"), hence we get the Avengers.

The Avengers debuted the same month as the X-men, which reminds me of another theory I've read: that Daredevil was supposed to be the other summer debut, alongside X-men, but Bill Everett couldn't meet the deadline, so Stan and Jack rushed the Avengers into production to fill the slot. (The timeline for this theory has some problems, but I suppose we'll talk about it when we get to early 1964.)  

[Prince Namor]

I still don't understand anyone thinking Goodman was giving input on titles to publish.

We know Kirby brought his monster/sci-fi stories from DC in 1958 - Goodman allowed that, even though he hated sci-fi, because Jack said he could get sales. He promised to save the company. 

It kept it afloat, but certainly didn't save it. So what'd Goodman do?

From 1958 to 1961, what other title did Goodman order to be done???

Bring back Rawhide Kid? Let Kirby do another monster book? That's over a THREE YEAR stretch, where the business was sagging.

He did nothing...

Meanwhile in that time DC Comics introduced MANY new characters in series that did well and ended up lasting decades:

The Legion of Superheroes in 1958 make their debut, Challengers of the Unknown, Rip Hunter...Time Master, The Flash, Green Lantern, Lois Lane (a HUGE hit), Sgt. Rock, the new Green Arrow, Adam Strange... he copies none of these regardless of their success.

He ignores that DC has not one War title, but multiple War titles and decides... no I don't want to copy that, even though - I did so successfully throughout the 50's.... 

He ignores that DC has multiple celebrity titles... Jerry Lewis, Bob Hope... that have been running for years... he ignores it and doesn't copy it. He ignores the competition completely... even Charlton who has success with Captain Atom and finally make a blip.

He wasn't interested. He believed comics were done.

 

The Lie: Independent News held Marvel back with only 8 titles a month, and that's what hurt them. But when Goodman asked for a JLA-like title, Stan Lee's genius saved Marvel.

The Truth: Goodman held Stan to 8 titles a month because he didn't believe in him and wanted to shut the comics down. Only Jack Kirby's vision saved Marvel.

That's why Stan created the story he did. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Management's gotta manage. It's apparent that Goodman largely ignored the comics division. However, every three years or so, he might have poked his head in, made a couple of unwise demands to show who was the boss (e.g., the moratorium on continued stories in mid-1969--that sure backfired!), and then went back to his men's sweat magazines and the like, where the real money was.