Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 6 6

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:54 PM, shadroch said:

Conan 16, 47, and 64 were all reprints or inventory stories caused by missed deadlines.   Spiderman 116, 117 and 118 was an inventory story caused by a missed deadline.  Avengers 136, 144-145 and 150 were reprints or inventory stories. I can think of one FF issue, 153, maybe? Black Panther's solo debut in Jungle Action #5 has him on the cover, but a reprint inside.   Captain Marvel #36 is, as well.  Iron Man, Ghost Rider,Killraven,Doctor Strange, Marvel Feature, even Sgt. Fury all missed deadlines.  In the mid-70s, an unofficial title called Marvel Fill-in was started so they'd at least have new material for when a deadline was missed.

I've no idea why gower denies these issues happened, but it does illustrate his lack of knowledge of the era. 

Collecting these fifty-plus accidental issues would make an exciting subset.

  There are several articles about Marvels deadline issues.  It didn't end until Shooter took over.  It's always bothered me that it took almost seven years to replace a guy who spent most of his time on the golf course and hardly showed up to work.

 

I guess when you don't have Kirby writing the majority of your books, it makes it tough to get things done. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2023 at 4:49 PM, shadroch said:

Stans hand-picked team, but I'm sure that was just another coincidence.  The further Marvel got from the original Marvel Method, the more problems popped up.

Yeah, Don Heck and Dick Ayers put out some real masterpieces. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:54 PM, Prince Namor said:

As early as 1979 Joe Brancatelli was exposing how the back door of comics worked...

Just in case you missed it. Here's the original article from 1979 first pointing out the criminal element within the comics distribution system, by one of the most respected comics journalists, Joe Brancatelli. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

I wonder what some people did with those left over bundles?

More from Joe Brancatelli...

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yeah, Don Heck and Dick Ayers put out some real masterpieces. 

Are their books still in print fifty years later?  Isn't that your criteria for Kirby being so special? 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:58 PM, shadroch said:

Sometimes, the inventory was unnoticed.  I think Spiderman 116-118 could have been regular issues, but occasionally they interrupted a storyline.  The Avengers were mixing it up with the Squadron Supreme for the first time when we got a two-issue fill-in about an assassin who kills heroes.  All the Avengers gathered for a gala 150th issue, where the government was to pick the new team.  The problem was the artist blew the deadline.

I believe Romita (Sr.) was quoted as saying the Spidey three-parter (reprinting Spectacular Spider-man Magazine #1, kinda/sorta) was meant to get them ahead of schedule, but there was so much redrawing involved that it didn't help. Romita only lasted one more issue anyhow (the first part of the Spider-man/Hulk donnybrook of #119-120) before turning it back to Gil Kane.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
Added source of reprint

[shadroch]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

More from Joe Brancatelli...

I'm afraid I see nothing in there about affidavit fraud or any criminal activity.   If Big Tony was actually who Brancatti indicated he was, the irony is delicious.

My Grandmother used to tell us that if you look at the world through jaundiced eyes, everyone looks ugly.  I saw an article about the inefficiencies of the distribution system. You think it shows proof of criminality.  Please point out anything about affidavit fraud.  

 

[jimjum12]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:19 PM, shadroch said:

I'm afraid I see nothing in there about affidavit fraud or any criminal activity.   If Big Tony was actually who Brancatti indicated he was, the irony is delicious.

My Grandmother used to tell us that if you look at the world through jaundiced eyes, everyone looks ugly.  I saw an article about the inefficiencies of the distribution system. You think it shows proof of criminality.  Please point out anything about affidavit fraud.  

 

The drop in units sold was also suggested as proof of affidavit return fraud, but the percentage of units lost is very similar to the percentage of the per unit price increase. As an old mentor once told me, we can only spread a jar of peanut butter so far. Yes, more math. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:50 AM, Prince Namor said:

Just in case you missed it. Here's the original article from 1979 first pointing out the criminal element within the comics distribution system, by one of the most respected comics journalists, Joe Brancatelli. 

Well, whaddya know, the Mob WAS involved in comic book distribution fraud after all.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:18 AM, Zonker said:

It's interesting to realize how different things were 50 years ago.  I wasn't there, but I do happen to have a copy of the 1974 Overstreet. 

 

Overstreet prices of course are never exactly correct, but he did report as of 1973 that the value of those early New Gods issues was greater than all but the Ditko issues of ASM.      If speculation was going on in the early 1970s, it seems reasonable to believe what was being speculated on was not the then-current, "low-value" Spideys, but instead the prospective next big thing. (Maybe it would be Conan.  Or New Gods.  Or Shazam!)

 

The worst thing about the Overstreet guide is how it assigns values to valueless books. If you cannot get their stated price for a book, then that book is not worth their stated price. This became glaringly apparent in the 1990s; most of those books are still not worth their cover price, even 24 - 33 years later.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:49 PM, shadroch said:

Stans hand-picked team, but I'm sure that was just another coincidence.  The further Marvel got from the original Marvel Method, the more problems popped up.

It would seem (based on Michael Vassallo's research) that Kirby returned to Atlas/Marvel to pick up the slack immediately following Joe Maneely's untimely death in 1958 (Don Heck returned as well), probably due to Stan contacting them directly. I gather that Colan and Buscema came back to Marvel at Stan's instigation as well, as did Romita Sr. A good nucleus to build upon, absolutely!

Edited September 25, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
minor rewording

[shadroch]

Stan put together a better team than Red Auerbach, but it must have been another coincidence.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:42 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

It would seem (based on Michael Vassallo's research) that Kirby returned to Atlas/Marvel to pick up the slack immediately following Joe Maneely's untimely death in 1958 (Don Heck as well), probably due to Stan contacting them directly. I gather that Colan and Buscema came back to Marvel at Stan's instigation as well, as did Romita Sr. A good nucleus to build upon, absolutely!

Kirby said he approached Marvel on his own. Without Kirby, Marvel would've shut down. According to Kirby he told Lee to go in and tell Goodman to hold off and that he'd make some books that would sell. And he did. 

Don Heck came to Marvel in 1955, and was always available. He had that gap of a few months in 1958 when Marvel wasn't buying work, but... either he didn't try or no one else would hire him, as he had no other comic book work during that time off (according to GCD).

Ditko was always freelance but Marvel paid... very low... but better than Charlton. And he got consistent monthly work from Marvel. But eventually quit because of the Marvel Method. The part of it that has the artist do the writing, and the editor (Stan) get the credit and the pay for it. 

The same reason Wally Wood quit.

And Joe Orlando.

And eventually Jack Kirby.

 

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby said he approached Marvel on his own. Without Kirby, Marvel would've shut down. According to Kirby he told Lee to go in and tell Goodman to hold off and that he'd make some books that would sell. And he did. 

Don Heck came to Marvel in 1955, and was always available. He had that gap of a few months in 1958 when Marvel wasn't buying work, but... either he didn't try or no one else would hire him, as he had no other comic book work during that time off (according to GCD).

Ditko was always freelance but Marvel paid... very low... but better than Charlton. And he got consistent monthly work from Marvel. But eventually quit because of the Marvel Method. The part of it that has the artist do the writing, and the editor (Stan) get the credit and the pay for it. 

The same reason Wally Wood quit.

And Joe Orlando.

And eventually Jack Kirby.

 

 

John Buscema, Romita and Gil Kane are all on record complaining about doing all the heavy lifting for Stan Lee as well.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:29 AM, Steven Valdez said:

John Buscema, Romita and Gil Kane are all on record complaining about doing all the heavy lifting for Stan Lee as well.

How to build something good: (1) Assemble the best people available. (2) Stay out of their way. (3) Give credit where credit is due.

We can debate 50-60 years after the fact about how well Stan Lee did these three things, but when the people who were there were asked for their opinion, a pattern emerges.

[Dr. Haydn]

"Kirby said he approached Marvel on his own. Without Kirby, Marvel would've shut down. According to Kirby he told Lee to go in and tell Goodman to hold off and that he'd make some books that would sell. And he did."

Maneely died early on a Saturday morning. If I remember correctly, Kirby showed up at Lee's door on Monday. Was this a coincidence, or did Kirby read the obituary, see a work opportunity and take it (a bit ghoulish for him!), or did Lee contact him?

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:02 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

"Kirby said he approached Marvel on his own. Without Kirby, Marvel would've shut down. According to Kirby he told Lee to go in and tell Goodman to hold off and that he'd make some books that would sell. And he did."

Maneely died early on a Saturday morning. If I remember correctly, Kirby showed up at Lee's door on Monday. Was this a coincidence, or did Kirby read the obituary, see a work opportunity and take it (a bit ghoulish for him!), or did Lee contact him?

Jeez, I hope that wasn't the actual timing....

Stan Lee maintained in his later years that Maneely was his all-time favourite artist, even more so than Kirby.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:35 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Jeez, I hope that wasn't the actual timing....

Stan Lee maintained in his later years that Maneely was his all-time favourite artist, even more so than Kirby.

That seems to be the timing, however we want to explain it.

From Timely-Atlas Comics, December 8, 2018. "Stan Lee (1924-2018) - The Timely Years," by Michael Vassallo. Worth quoting at length.

 

On June 7, 1958, in the midst of drawing the Two-Gun Kid, Mrs. Lyons' Cubs, and rendering most of the non-teen, non-romance covers, Joe Maneely, Stan Lee's fastest, top artistic collaborator, and friend, died on the way back home by train. Stan must have been shell-shocked. The very last thing Joe drew was the splash above to Two-Gun Kid #45, #T-67, cover date Dec/58 and published on September 2, 1958. Jack Davis would finish the rest of the story, John Severin would ultimately take over the book and later give way to Al Hartley.

Pause....

The very first story Jack Kirby did when he returned to what used to be called Atlas, was #T-76 Strange Worlds #1's "I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers!", cover date Dec/58, published around September 3, 1958.

So these two stories, Joe Maneely's last and Jack Kirby's first, were assigned and published almost simultaneously. The Kirby story is assigned within one or two days of Maneely's death. That is a fact. Ayers once gave me the date of a western story he did, with a number a few digits from Kirby's story, and it was assigned the Monday after Joe's death. So what are some of the possibilities of what may have happened?

Jack Kirby is on record that he talked Stan Lee into pursuing new ideas, science fiction and ultimately superheroes. Kirby claimed on more than one occasion that they were "carrying out the furniture" when he arrived, and alternately, that he "found Stan Lee crying", because they were going to shut down the comics.

Let's parse this further. The Atlas implosion a year earlier certainly would have led Stan to think Goodman was going to shut down the company. Was Jack talking about that? I don't know. The death of Maneely, his friend and collaborator, would have left Stan "also" thinking there was now no future in the comic books, and that Martin Goodman may well shut down the comics division. Plus, if he arrived at Stan's office the next day, Monday, he would quite possibly have found Stan Lee in tears, not because of his job, but because of Joe's death.

Additionally, how did Jack get to Stan's office, out of the blue, the Monday (or Tuesday) after Joe's death over the weekend? The only way is that Stan called him. Don Heck, in an interview with Will Murray, stated that Stan called him up immediately after Joe died, telling him that there was work open. Heck had not worked for Stan since the implosion in the Spring of 1957. Heck was also in that first issue of Strange Worlds, on a story with a job #T-77, the number immediately after Jack's story.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
trimmed quote slightly

[Prince Namor]

Atlas released no books to the newsstand in August of 1958. This has never been explained by Lee, but seems to match Kirby's story that they were shutting down. 
 

So some time between Maneely's death and however long it took Kirby to knock out a 7 page story (about 2 days) was when it was assigned. I don't believe there's an actual date of when they were assigned - numerically they're right next to each other - but it still could've been the next day, a few days or even a week or two from when Kirby came in and offered to save the company. 

[Zonker]

Wouldn't it make sense that if Stan Lee reached out to Don Heck immediately after Maneely's death, that he would also have reached out to Kirby?  Not at this point with the intention to rejuvenate the Atlas/Marvel line, but simply to fill out whatever gaps there were in the remaining production schedule allowed by Goodman and yet suddenly left vacant by Maneely's death.  

Quote

Additionally, how did Jack get to Stan's office, out of the blue, the Monday (or Tuesday) after Joe's death over the weekend? The only way is that Stan called him. Don Heck, in an interview with Will Murray, stated that Stan called him up immediately after Joe died, telling him that there was work open. Heck had not worked for Stan since the implosion in the Spring of 1957. Heck was also in that first issue of Strange Worlds, on a story with a job #T-77, the number immediately after Jack's story.

So Kirby shows up to see what Stan is offering, and maybe they are moving furniture at this point, maybe it is at this point when he finds Stan sobbing.  Kirby sees an opportunity to help turn the ship around, as things had gone sour for him at DC.

Kirby's TCJ interview wasn't clear on what prompted Kirby to show up (or when exactly this was):

Quote

I came in [to the Marvel offices] and they were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out — and I needed the work! I had a family and a house and all of a sudden Marvel is coming apart. Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn’t know what to do, he’s sitting in a chair crying —he was just still out of his adolescence. I told him to stop crying. I says. “Go in to Martin and tell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I’ll see that the books make money.”