Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:13 PM, Mmehdy said:

OK....LOl

To answer your question.

Yes of course he lied, but I've known that for a long, long time as have many others.

If a book came out entitled 'The Titanic hit an iceberg' , I wouldn't be over enthused about that either because I'm aware that it happened.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:29 AM, Prince Namor said:

Except when comes to New Gods. Got it,

 

You are confused. Your "brief" responses are becoming incoherent. I haven't mentioned New Gods. I certainly know (and care) nothing about their sales figures.

On 9/25/2024 at 7:29 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Biro was one of the greats. Your point is what? That pinting out that Kirby was great means someone else needs to be brought up?

 

If your measure is sales figures. Sure. But so are a lot of folks that comic fans with a more refined sense would not view as "great." Sad that you have resorted to an accountant's perspective on an art form. Telling too.

On 9/25/2024 at 7:29 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

And Young Romance WAS significant and important and LASTING (its been collected in modern times), and Kirby worked on the book not 'a few years', but for ELEVEN YEARS. Started in 1947 and his last issue was around #95 in 1958. It lasted. 

 

We are in the Golden Age of collected editions. Many many things have been turned into collected editions. Often with tiny print runs that would not hold up to your "sales numbers" test. My recollection is that Young Romance was put together by a fan who used to post regularly on the Marvel Masterworks boards. I think I recall that he was teaching himself how to digitally restore and self-published a small number of copies. One reader thought it was a great effort and he got hooked up with Fantagraphics (I think). Great story. Not a story about cultural relevance.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

You could've just said 'nothing'.

Got it. You think Neal Adams brought nothing to comics. 

That's a self-impeaching statement.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:38 AM, Prince Namor said:

How do you measure cultural significance?

 

Longevity of influence is one good option. 

Short term sales figures is not.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2024 at 8:08 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

I have made it CLEAR, that I SEE the significance in what Lee did during the Silver Age towrad the success of Marvel Comics, despite the fact that he stole CREDIT and PAY from every artist that worked for him from at least 1961 to 1972.

 

So your response is to attempt to steal credit from Lee? C'mon. What major Marvel superheroes did Stan Lee co-create?

And what is required, in your opinion, to qualify as a co-creator?

[sfcityduck]

Chaz,

Your attack on Neal Adams reminded me of something Gil Kane once said in an interview in The Jack Kirby Collector:

TJKC: What was Jack like?
Gil: ... Mostly Jack saw himself as the star of his own work. When guys came along like Frank Frazetta or Neal Adams, he'd never say what was obvious: That both of those guys, in different ways, were sensational.

 

[jsilverjanet]

I thought the "don't tell me how to post" argument was settled a long time ago

oh wait

#butthurtthesameitwas10yearsago

#butthurtaliveandwellin2024

#butthurticantstayawaybecauseineedtoberight

[jsilverjanet]

can the mods adjust the setting in which you are forced to write in this thread

I mean if we only had options of posting in different topics

oh wait

 

[jsilverjanet]

#idontliketoargue

#imnotthetroublemaker

#itsnotlikeivebeenbannedbefore

[VintageComics]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

By the time we finally see the FF and ASM numbers - the two best sellers for Marvel during the 60's - they're in the 340,000 range. That's a big jump. The monster books, now with superhero stories are doing 250-260,000. So for Marvel, that's a significant jump.

<snip>

So Kirby and Lee WERE successful as far as sales numbers go - just not in the same way Kirby and Simon were in the GA.

This gets to part of what I was trying to establish: Was ANYTHING as successful in the SA as it was in the GA? Or better put, were the most successful SA books comparable to the most successful GA books?

On 9/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

We're not conflating it - the Lee fans want to use Marvel's continued success of the characters to show that Lee is amazing and should be overlooked for stealing CREDIT and PAY from his artists, while dismissing anything that Kirby did without Lee as inconsequential. 

My answer here is related to your answer above....

On 9/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

as oppossed to... trying to make a case for all Simon did in comics without Kirby?

How popular was Kirby without Simon in the GA?

On 9/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

as oppossed to... trying to make a case for all Lee did in comics without Kirby?

How popular was Kirby without LA in the SA?

We know there was a huge expectation from Kirby, but in reality how well did New Gods sell compared to rival issues / publishers / characters?

On 9/25/2024 at 11:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

Green Lantern/Green Arrow - 11 issues canceled - worst selling DC book according to Statement of Publication Numbers - "Culturally significant!"

Perfect example.

GL/GA with Adams were a part of the beginning, or the transition of the Bronze Age. Even if they didn't sell well initially, they planted seeds that others nurtured what the Bronze Age was to become. I don't think anyone would argue against that. 

in similar fashion, Hulk #1-6 were cancelled, but Hulk eventually caught on.

X-men were nearly cancelled but then went on to become the most popular Marvel franchise outside of Spider-man.

So the above examples prove that sales alone are not an indicator of future cultural significance. Just pointing it out even if it's obvious.

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:36 PM by VintageComics

[jsilverjanet]

can someone answer me if it's the first or the second C in CGCboards that stands for complaining?

 

[Chip Cataldo]

Well, well, well...look what just showed up... 

Took my original Origins out of its slipcase for a photo-op with his new friend... 😊

[Dave2739]

On 9/25/2024 at 5:37 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Well, well, well...look what just showed up... 

Took my original Origins out of its slipcase for a photo-op with his new friend... 😊

Not trying to derail, but man that's minty fresh copy of Origins that you have there. You've posted it in the slipcase but I don't recall seeing out. Sweet copy.

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:46 PM, CGC Mike said:

I do not believe I have issued any warnings.  So, I do not think that is very many actions for this thread.     

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/26/2024 at 4:07 AM, sfcityduck said:

Got it. You think Neal Adams brought nothing to comics. 

That's a self-impeaching statement.

That's not what I said. Very disingenuous on your part.

[comicwiz]

On 9/25/2024 at 5:37 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Well, well, well...look what just showed up... 

Took my original Origins out of its slipcase for a photo-op with his new friend... 😊

About 50 pages in, and I'm loving it! @Prince Namor's book that is.

The one on the left, well let's just say that even though yours looks like it's in really nice condition, I'd still take a flamethrower to it.

[comicwiz]

On 9/25/2024 at 5:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

Gil: ... Mostly Jack saw himself as the star of his own work. When guys came along like Frank Frazetta or Neal Adams, he'd never say what was obvious: That both of those guys, in different ways, were sensational.

Ah, the "Trickerator." Says everything that needs to be said about his crediblity.

[jsilverjanet]

I wonder how many people have hugged their CGC signature series stan lee books since this thread has started

"don't worry stan, I'll defend you baby"

[sfcityduck]

PN,

The words speak for themselves:

On 9/25/2024 at 12:01 AM, Prince Namor said:

What did Neal Adams create that would compare to what Kirby brought to the Marvel Silver Age?

It's not a put down. It's a fair question considering it comes from you making the 'What If' Lee had partnered with Adams in 1961.

On 9/25/2024 at 6:57 AM, sfcityduck said:

Already answered. A new visual style for superhero comics. He basically was using that style around 1960-1961. He just didn't work on a superhero book until around 1967. When he did, it had a big impact.

Focusing just on costumes, names, and powers is a mistake. CA was derivative of the Shield. Thor was an adaptation of a well-known mythology. Most comic superheros are largely unoriginal. What separates a book is the storytelling techniques (art and words), themes, and execution. To use a legal copyright/trademark concept - the look and feel. 

As I said above, the "What If" line of reasoning you like to posit is a total illusion. We will never know what would have happened had Lee somehow used Adams as the artist on a superhero revival of Timely's Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and Captain America. But my entirely subjective guess is that it would have made waves. 

 

On 9/25/2024 at 7:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

You could've just said 'nothing'.

On 9/25/2024 at 2:07 PM, sfcityduck said:

Got it. You think Neal Adams brought nothing to comics. 

That's a self-impeaching statement.

On 9/25/2024 at 3:54 PM, Prince Namor said:

That's not what I said. Very disingenuous on your part.

If you want to try to explain where "You've could've just said nothing" statement -- go ahead.

Any problem of interpretation is due to your curt communications.

So explain away.

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 PM by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2024 at 2:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

Chaz,

Your attack on Neal Adams reminded me of something Gil Kane once said in an interview in The Jack Kirby Collector:

TJKC: What was Jack like?
Gil: ... Mostly Jack saw himself as the star of his own work. When guys came along like Frank Frazetta or Neal Adams, he'd never say what was obvious: That both of those guys, in different ways, were sensational.

 

On 9/25/2024 at 4:04 PM, comicwiz said:

Ah, the "Trickerator." Says everything that needs to be said about his crediblity.

What exactly in the above exchange reflects on my credibility?

The quoted interview is accurate of The Jack Kirby Collector's interview with former S&K employee - Gil Kane. 

Apparently Jack, like Chaz, did not want to admit the obvious: Adams was sensational.

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 PM by sfcityduck