Important information about storing comic books in fire proof/resistant safes

[BronzeBruce13]

Sort of... to the best of my recollection, 2 of the 4 (including the 182) were in thicker 3 mil CGC bags taped shut with 1 piece (not sealed with a long strip) and also placed within bubble-wrap bags that CGC used to include with more expensive books.

 

the other 2 were in the thicker 3 mil bag with no tape closing the top.

 

 

 

Bruce, not that it would've made much of difference, but were your CGC books also bagged on the outside and sealed?

[BronzeBruce13]

Possibly, but remember someone referenced a Judge Wapner episode in which a comic collector (with raw comics) attempted to sue a safe manufacturer for rust damage.

 

 

This can't be the first, or second time judging by Steve's post, this has occurred. Collectors have been putting their comics in safes for decades. Why didn't this problem become evident when collectors were storing their comics in safes without slabs?

 

Could it be some harmful process occurs with the interaction of the safe and slabs together?

 

Jim

[BronzeBruce13]

I bought this safe from Staples in fact

 

thats interesting.......

 

but maybe its a recent spread of the usually smaller fire-resistant safes for the home that are selling in Home Depot and Staples. Didnt it used to be that buying a safe was a very rare occurance? and only done by companies you had to find in the Yellow Pages? And the buyers were jewelry companies etc??

 

Id hate to think the slabs are a factor chemically. With the PCS announcement this week, CGC is a good guy again!!!

[BronzeBruce13]

I'm considering that option as I learn more about the chemical and the past expericences of others. Perhaps the is already a precedent set.

 

What do you think Scott?

 

Bruce, are you going to contact the manufacturer of the safe's and try to get some form of damages?

[BronzeBruce13]

Sadly, after considering it many times, I neglected to get a policy.

I'm not so sure that CIA would cover this IF they felt I was negligent. You policy holders may want to double check whether you'd be covered in this scenario.

 

If you are, it might be wise for everyone to obtain both a "CGC safe" safe... and a CIA policy

 

 

Bruce,

 

If you have a CIA insurance policy, it should cover this type of damage.

[BronzeBruce13]

Possibly, but I usually tap most of my comics (particularly the expensive ones) away from all edges if possible. I really don't think it has anything to do with the CGC slab itself. I have hundreds NOT in a safe stored "spine side down" and in some cases with staples very close to/ or touching the slab and there is no problem.

 

Bruce

Were the staples on the Hulk #182 aligned in a manner which had them in contact with the inner well?

[BronzeBruce13]

Only the staples (not even the paper immediately in contact with it) show any signs of change.

 

The inner well is made of Barex 210, which is more chemically resistant than Mylar as to most chemical types (except for Ketones, such as Acetone). I doubt it's the inner well reacting with a chemical.

 

Could it be the outer well reacting with the effects seaping into the inner well?

 

I agree with you that the damage looks more "chemical" related vs. just moisture...and the fact people have been using safes for years before CGC came into existence to store their comics with no damage, at least as related to comicdom at large, seems odd...

 

Jim

 

Who knows? I would think that we'd see some degradation in the outer shell if that were the case. I don't see any in the scan, but maybe Bruce can shed some light on the issue.

[BronzeBruce13]

I suppose, the Hulk 182 clearly will need the staples replaced to protect the book itself. Even if I do that though, and even if it would end up a green label "qualified" 9.8, I don't imagin it will be worth all that much... maybe not enough to have a professional charge me to put in vintage staples.

 

plus... it may be too depressing to see it in a green slab. My other option is to replace the staples myself and just throw it on my new spinner rack as a "reader" copy.

 

Would you not crack that out and get the staples cleaned/replaced at some point? Because isn't that rust soon going to affect the paper? What are the thoughts on that part of the issue?

[Anfield Fox]

I suppose, the Hulk 182 clearly will need the staples replaced to protect the book itself. Even if I do that though, and even if it would end up a green label "qualified" 9.8, I don't imagin it will be worth all that much... maybe not enough to have a professional charge me to put in vintage staples.

 

plus... it may be too depressing to see it in a green slab. My other option is to replace the staples myself and just throw it on my new spinner rack as a "reader" copy.

 

Would you not crack that out and get the staples cleaned/replaced at some point? Because isn't that rust soon going to affect the paper? What are the thoughts on that part of the issue?

 

Bruce, i would definitely get the book cleaned and the staples replaced. It would be making the best of a bad situation but there is no point in writing it off completely. Especially as it's in such a high grade and the paper isn't damaged yet.

 

I would also push for compensation from the manufacturer.

 

Sorry to hear about this and best of luck, especially with the other 3 books.

[maxstuf]

It is a terrible situation. I appreciate your posting about this. I have been looking at safes myself and have as yet not purchased one. Choosing instead to use my banks safe deposit box. But it is a pain to go to each time. I am now looking for a large old style safe. One like you would see in an western. Tall, wide, deep, heavy, etc..

[BronzeBruce13]

Interesting theory, one I was totally convinced was the case before Steve mentioned the other fellow who experienced the same thing with relatively low-grade, inexpensive CGC books that were not likely to have been pressed.

 

My first thought was that any book that had been pressed with the controlled use of moisture/humidity, and had then been encapsulated prematurely (before the inner pages dried to "normal" levels) may retain a moisture level that after time led to the rust.

 

This does not seem very likely when you look at other facts.

 

1. We have not yet heard on any rusted staple books coming from books (pressed or not) that were NOT within a fireproof safe.

 

2. If enough moisture was trapped within the slab to initiate rust/corrosion to the degree the 182 has, wouldn't we see other signs such as rippled covers, foxing, etc.?

 

3. We know other metals stored within a fireproof safe are at risk to rust and/or corrosion... and as Steve said to me when i bounced this off him (and to which I had a good laugh) "no one presses any guns"

 

4. I was not able to verify if the 4 books affected were pressed (more specifically pressed with moisture) or not when I called the seller that the Hulk 182 can be traced back to. Although he openly admits to pressing, he could not remember if he had the book pressed or not since he does not consider pressing restoration thus not noteworthy enough to have made record of it. I only asked about the Hulk 182. I did not realize until later that 3 of the 4 books affected were sold to me by this individual. The 4th is not confirmed yet, but possible... but again likely NOT the issue here.

 

What COULD still be a "slim possibility" in my mind is that a "unique combination of these factors need to converge" for the damage to occur, but if those other CGC books were not pressed, this theory would clearly have no merit. I have no information about the other collector and his book's history to either confirm or rule out this possibility. We do know he had lower grade books that were likely not pressed.

 

BTW... please do not ask me who the seller is, nor take guesses for me to respond to, as I really don't believe there is enough cause to go down that road at this point. I would like to focus my research and this discussion towards the fire proof chemical used and its potential affect on metal.

 

 

 

I did a little research on Barex 210. The info I found stated that it is an extremely good oxygen barrier. I was wondering is the CGC inner well sealed to a point that it can trap moisture at the time of encapsulation. Is it possible that any moisture or humidity is being trapped in the inner well during the seal and not escaping because of Barex's ability to hold out (or in) oxygen?

[skybolt]

It is a terrible situation. I appreciate your posting about this. I have been looking at safes myself and have as yet not purchased one. Choosing instead to use my banks safe deposit box. But it is a pain to go to each time. I am now looking for a large old style safe. One like you would see in an western. Tall, wide, deep, heavy, etc..

 

I do the same thing, but now I'm not even sure about bank safety deposit boxes. I've only stored my books there for about 2 years, so am not sure what the long term effects are.

[selegue]

I agree with you since there is no "other" visible signs of moisture infiltration such as "wavy" pages or other paper damage like foxing, etc.

 

I have heard that some coin owners (with coins made of precious metals - rust proof) have experienced other reactions (toning issues) within fireproof safes.

 

Brian is thinking of helping me with this after I learn more information about the chemicals used in my safe. I find it hard to believe that the chemical is not at least a partial culprit if not the primary one.

 

Sorry to read about the damage. Those photos show serious corrosion! [i know -- I don't have to tell you that.] That's much more than I'd expect from rusting in what was basically a well-sealed environment. You say that you had silica gel in the safe and presumably it was not exchanging air, or very little at least, with its environment. That's certainly drier than storing a slabbed book in a cardboard box, and staples in books stored like that don't usually spontaneously self-destruct!

 

Apologies if this is too technical.

 

Please post more information about the fire-proofing chemicals when you find out what they are. I'd lay serious odds that those chemicals are corroding the iron in the staples and that it's not just a moisture problem. Probably the safe was outgassing something acidic. I'm thinking that you're going to run into organophosphates (probably halogenated) and maybe ammonium chloride or phosphate. Getting acids (hydrochloric or phosphoric) into the atmosphere would accelerate corrosion big-time.

 

Water/moisture does NOT really make iron rust -- oxygen does. Water (especially if it contains dissolved salts or acids) accelerates the process, but it isn't really the oxidant.

 

I am slightly baffled by these statements from Steve's first post on the thread:

Yesterday, we also learned that fireproof/fire resistant safes are prone to develop moisture. Many fire resistant safes contain insulation, which in turn, contains water crystals; thus the high content of moisture.

 

"develop moisture"? "contains water crystals"??

I think that Steve may be passing on some misinformation or misinterpretation.

 

Jack

[CW]

Bruce,

My point wasn't so much towards pressing as to simply if a high humidity was present at the time of encapsulation that it could be traped. The CGC well is relatively young 5 yrs. perhaps we are seeing the beginnings of a trend. Like early CD's that started to break down after 10 yrs. Just a thought, I am not trying to cause alarm simply rule out the humidity possiblility completely as the sole culprit as well as ruling out the CGC well from encouraging this type of damage. I hope that it can be narrowed down to a chemical, but I find it difficult to see a chemical that isn't in direct contact with the staples of the book that would do that by itself. You would think it would effect metal in the general vicinity of the safe as well. If you do find out what the material is please let us know.

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks.. and as mentioned I will indeed make all the information I discover public and with the help of CGC, GPA and Gemstone's electronic newsletters, this info will be actively distributed to as wide an audience as possible.

 

Steve was quoting an excerpt from my Sentry catalog. That was almost verbatim what one warning was.

 

Sorry to read about the damage. Those photos show serious corrosion! [i know -- I don't have to tell you that.] That's much more than I'd expect from rusting in what was basically a well-sealed environment. You say that you had silica gel in the safe and presumably it was not exchanging air, or very little at least, with its environment. That's certainly drier than storing a slabbed book in a cardboard box, and staples in books stored like that don't usually spontaneously self-destruct!

 

Apologies if this is too technical.

 

Please post more information about the fire-proofing chemicals when you find out what they are. I'd lay serious odds that those chemicals are corroding the iron in the staples and that it's not just a moisture problem. Probably the safe was outgassing something acidic. I'm thinking that you're going to run into organophosphates (probably halogenated) and maybe ammonium chloride or phosphate. Getting acids (hydrochloric or phosphoric) into the atmosphere would accelerate corrosion big-time.

 

Water/moisture does NOT really make iron rust -- oxygen does. Water (especially if it contains dissolved salts or acids) accelerates the process, but it isn't really the oxidant.

 

I am slightly baffled by these statements from Steve's first post on the thread:

Yesterday, we also learned that fireproof/fire resistant safes are prone to develop moisture. Many fire resistant safes contain insulation, which in turn, contains water crystals; thus the high content of moisture.

 

"develop moisture"? "contains water crystals"??

I think that Steve may be passing on some misinformation or misinterpretation.

 

Jack

[CW]

"develop moisture"? "contains water crystals"??

I think that Steve may be passing on some misinformation or misinterpretation.

 

Jack

 

I think Steve was making the point that the fire insulations used, some are sheet rock like, Release high amounts of humidity during fires to control the flash point of the contents. In turn I think they can develope a humidity level higher than that of the surrounding environment during normal use.

Do you know if there is a way to test the PH of the air in a safe that the average person could do. This may be helpful to those of us with safes. If Bruce still has the safe, perhaps he could run some tests such as taking the humidity of the room at a few random times inside and out of the safe and also the PH if we can find a method for testing. These may prove most helpful.

-Chris

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey CW,

 

I was not saying you were specifically suggesting pressing... its just a logical possiblity when questioning the humidity/moisture levels within a comic. Since we know that pressing with moisture is being done, that would seem to be a circumstance that "could" lead to higher than normal (safe) level prior to encapsulation. I just anticipated that the conversation would eventually lead to these questions... so i raised and adressed them in advance.

 

Also, my comments were really made to everyone, i was not singling you out and welcome your input. Thanks

 

Bruce,

My point wasn't so much towards pressing as to simply if a high humidity was present at the time of encapsulation that it could be traped. The CGC well is relatively young 5 yrs. perhaps we are seeing the beginnings of a trend. Like early CD's that started to break down after 10 yrs. Just a thought, I am not trying to cause alarm simply rule out the humidity possiblility completely as the sole culprit as well as ruling out the CGC well from encouraging this type of damage. I hope that it can be narrowed down to a chemical, but I find it difficult to see a chemical that isn't in direct contact with the staples of the book that would do that by itself. You would think it would effect metal in the general vicinity of the safe as well. If you do find out what the material is please let us know.

[CW]

No Prob,

I just hope we can figure out the exact culprit before anymore books fall victim to this mysterious killer.

-CW

[selegue]

...

 

Steve was quoting an excerpt from my Sentry catalog. That was almost verbatim what one warning was.

 

 

In that case "passing on some misinformation." Looks to me like the Sentry catalog has some BS or doubletalk in it.

 

 

I am slightly baffled by these statements from Steve's first post on the thread:

Yesterday, we also learned that fireproof/fire resistant safes are prone to develop moisture. Many fire resistant safes contain insulation, which in turn, contains water crystals; thus the high content of moisture.

 

"develop moisture"? "contains water crystals"??

I think that Steve may be passing on some misinformation or misinterpretation.

 

Jack

[selegue]

"develop moisture"? "contains water crystals"??

I think that Steve may be passing on some misinformation or misinterpretation.

 

I think Steve was making the point that the fire insulations used, some are sheet rock like, Release high amounts of humidity during fires to control the flash point of the contents. In turn I think they can develope a humidity level higher than that of the surrounding environment during normal use.

 

 

Possibly -- or the Sentry catalog was trying to make that point and Steve passed it on. It puzzles me that the safe manufacturer would use materials "containing water crystals" (that makes my brain hurt) that raise the humidity level, then recommend that the user put silica gel in the safe to lower the humidity.

 

This safe wasn't in a fire or subjected to high temperatures, was it?

 

 

Do you know if there is a way to test the PH of the air in a safe that the average person could do. This may be helpful to those of us with safes. If Bruce still has the safe, perhaps he could run some tests such as taking the humidity of the room at a few random times inside and out of the safe and also the PH if we can find a method for testing. These may prove most helpful.

-Chris

 

Off the top of my head, I would try moistening a piece of pH paper (should be available in an aquarium or hydroponics supply store) with distilled water, placing it on something inert like a glass dish, and closing it in the safe for a while (maybe a half hour). I'd test the method in an acidic and basic atmosphere to make sure it works before I relied on it. Hygrometers are inexpensive (start about $10 I think, way cheaper than losing a slabbed comic book) and readily available. Qualitative indicator cards (with cobalt salts that turn from blue to pink when the humidity is high) are dirt cheap.

 

Jack