Calling for the head of 'House!

[Foolkiller]

Brian:

 

Really? I think it'd be an interesting spin and really push the ideas behind the ultimate line instead of just having it be a redux and update in modern times of classic spidey stories...

 

I just think the whole way that could play out would be a bonanza for story telling.

 

If I was writing any ultimate books I would definitely try and play a little bit with the stories and once or twice, change a major event...

 

I wish they'd do ultimate FF... can you imagine, ultimate surfer, ultimate galactus, ultimate inhumans... oh it'd be awesome!

[murph0]

Nah, you can't take that aspect out of the book, it's part of what really made Spider-man. Without MJ it's not really the same book, you can take characters like Gwen or other close ppl out of the equation and it'll still be a shocker. But if you take out key characters like MJ it'd be a disapointment and would change the book in more of a negative way than it would be as a tool to stir up interest.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

Now, where's that [!@#%^&^] 'House?? I need to know about that Exiles HC.

 

 

[Foolkiller]

I guess I disagree with this because I saw Gwen, at that stage during Spider Man's development, to be the more important character, and I think that MJ was later turned into a character that became vitally important... as the history as been written thus far...

 

But my interpretation of the Ultimate line is to give a slightly different take on the characters... and to open up some new possibilities, not just make the characters younger and hipper. So if Gwen becomes the central figure in the ultimate line, she becomes the most important figure in Spidey's life... we've already seen elements like Venom's origin, and the relationship of Aunt May and Peter which have been tinkered with, I really think this is something that could be played with successfully... but, I don't how much latitude that Bendis has to do something that screwy, but again, I think it's the kind of twist that could take the ultimate line from redux to truly standing on its own.

[Illiterati-migration]

This whole "kill MJ" line of thinking is really quite interesting... after all, how far into the Spider-Man mythos are they going to rehash his history? X-Men was pretty far off-course from the get-go, but Spidey has been relatively true to his roots. Where do you think the first REAL, MAJOR deviation is going to occur??? (More to the point, what would YOU like for the first real deviation to be?)

[murph0]

I personally think you'd be one of the few to like it, that would be like the Clone Saga all over again.

At this point MJ is THE girl, due to the ASM series and the past 250 or so issues. I also think she's a character with more depth (well, not in the Ult series neither one of them has any depth). While U. S. is supposed to try out new stuff, killing off MJ, wouldn't be trying out something diff it would be (IMO) changing the entire book.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

I personally think you'd be one of the few to like it, that would be like the Clone Saga all over again.

At this point MJ is THE girl, due to the ASM series and the past 250 or so issues. I also think she's a character with more depth (well, not in the Ult series neither one of them has any depth). While U. S. is supposed to try out new stuff, killing off MJ, wouldn't be trying out something diff it would be (IMO) changing the entire book.

 

Brian

 

But do you really want to see the whole Spidey mythos all over again? I mean, you've STILL got Amazing Spider-Man running in the normal continuity, why not drop MJ off a building or have her blown in half by an errant pumpkin bomb or something?

[Foolkiller]

Well, i already cast my vote...

 

But let's look at the Ultimates... they're the most popular and there's only the loosest connection to continuity there... they really aren't even trying and that book's spectacular.

 

Let me just babble for a minute on this... in Spidey, I think the kill MJ (in like 50 or 75 issues, after you've become attached to her and she's super meaningful) would work because you'd get to explore how the death would impact Peter for the rest of his life... especially if you did it at like 18 or so... think about how different that would be... they've already orphaned Gwen... And think about this... if you follow continuity, how much less impact does Gwen's death have? Gwen isn't #1 for Peter, even if they date and then they kill her, think about that, MJ swoops in as Pete's first love and it makes sense... but it actually cheapens both... because MJ changed as a person because of Gwen's death in part and her character developed.... you could do the same only with Gwen and it takes on a life of its own because hey, Gwen is a different character in the Ultimate universe.

 

In Ult. X-Men, you don't do the expected, which is put Jean and Wolvie together forever... the Scott/Jean thing can really work... but here I'd play with the dynamics of how the government and mutants exist don't exist. Especially in today's world, Magneto would faction off much quicker and try and form his own country... think about this... with a mutant country you'd have a serious contender nation on your hands... think of all the things the economy could do... and they'd have the best defense arguably in the world... you could build Magneto's country as a haven for mutants and have his ideas become predominant over Xaiver's in the mutant community. Then really turn Xaiver on his head and see what he resorts to...

 

And I've got a ton of thoughts about ult. FF.

[blowout]

But do you really want to see the whole Spidey mythos all over again? I mean, you've STILL got Amazing Spider-Man running in the normal continuity

 

There is no reason not to deviate on this. I'm sure Bendis himself wants to try something new and not just rehash the past. I think killing MJ rather than Gwen would be perfect, we could then get to see what kind of a character Gwen COULD have been had she not be killed in regular continuity.

MJ only really became important after the death of Gwen, I always though that GS had the potential to be a much stronger and more rounded character than MJ.

Maybe Bendis can show us that...

[Foolkiller]

Yeah, this is what I'm saying... the great thing about the ultimate line is that it's a big playground and that's why I don't want to go all ultimate, I want the regular books around...

 

but I want modern takes on these characters that will really push the boundaries.

[murph0]

Well if they wanted to change it that much they should just not have put Peter Parker in it. Either way you look at it's going to be a rehash since it's the same character. I don't think it's been much of a rehash at all, different villains, different origins.. lots of people know who Spider-man is. Involvement from SHIELD.

I think the idea of this series is to slightly change Spider-man series, but the main reason is to retell the story so that younger people can get in at ground one. And it hasn't been a complete mirror of the original series. There's stuff that coincides but you'll have that. I think now that they're done with Venom you'll start seeing more original situations and other situations and villains.

 

Brian

[Foolkiller]

murph:

 

but if that's true... why is the ultimates going the way it is? and that's the best selling of all of them (issue by issue, cause it never really comes out) and probably the most interesting... and to me that's because it really is a whole new take... put these Marvel character's in today's universe...

 

Peter is the star... he's the one that drives the book... MJ, although important is a supporting character, and so if you make a situation where Gwen supplants that role and you change and develop her, I think it inspires new readership to new people and gets people excited about something different.

[Illiterati-migration]

Well if they wanted to change it that much they should just not have put Peter Parker in it. Either way you look at it's going to be a rehash since it's the same character. I don't think it's been much of a rehash at all, different villains, different origins.. lots of people know who Spider-man is. Involvement from SHIELD.

I think the idea of this series is to slightly change Spider-man series, but the main reason is to retell the story so that younger people can get in at ground one. And it hasn't been a complete mirror of the original series. There's stuff that coincides but you'll have that. I think now that they're done with Venom you'll start seeing more original situations and other situations and villains.

 

Brian

 

The whole "giving new readers a jumping-on point" argument doesn't hold water here. It was a jumping-on point for new readers because it was an entirely new series. Why would they care about OLD stories? If they wanted a jumping on point, they could go buy trade paperbacks. This is a new series. Marvel is firmly attached to the teat of their longtime readers... those are the people that they are marketing to first and foremost. Give them something new and exciting!

[murph0]

B/c it's a different genre. It's not aimed at kids obviously, where this is.

And it's a better seller b/c "absence makes the heart grow fonder"

 

Brian

[murph0]

Why mess up something that works, Khaos. The last time they tried to shake it up, the Clone Saga occurred. Nuff said.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

Why mess up something that works, Khaos. The last time they tried to shake it up, the Clone Saga occurred. Nuff said.

 

Brian

 

I know we're going to have to agree to disagree on this because you're probably the biggest Spidey-Nut I know... but I'm saying that change is good, PARTICULARLY when you're working in a creative medium. They've got to change or die. I mean, "Ultimate Spider Man" is NOT "Amazing Spider-Man"... there's no true sense of history, there's no real foundation... why maintain the status quo? The clone saga was ridiculous because it was a half-assed attempt at a retcon that absolutely blew up in their faces. There is no TRUE history for Ultimate Spidey yet! They're pioneering new territory! They can "shake it up" because they aren't trying to erase mistakes already made and they aren't working with decades of OLD stories that they have to step around. It's a perfect time for change. But again, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this...

 

[Foolkiller]

The clone saga failed because it took everything you knew and told you it never happened, oh wait, you hate that? okay, we lied... it was all true.

 

The whole premise of the Ultimate line is entirely different... it stands separate and apart from being bogged down with continuity... it's a fresh start so you get fresh ideas. I want to see new and different stuff with new directions... I want to see fresh ideas. I don't want similar stories just told differently.

[murph0]

And just as you said, it's not ASM. Read the first 30 issues of ASM and tell me the similarities? Other than the fact that he's learning his Spider abilities. It's been fairly different, and I don't envy Marvel as they have to walk a VERY fine line between keeping it close enough to the original series but making it different enough that it's more fresh and today. I'd say Marvel would be more worried about pleasing the Spidey-heads than really trying to give new readers what they want b/c they know if they don't [!@#%^&^] of the Spidey-heads..they'll buy the book no matter how bad it is.

As of matter of fact MJ didn't even appear heavily in Spider-man at all until after ASM 243, so...in essence..they are doing something different right now by having Pete date her and tell her immediately about his identity while they're in H.S.

I believe the problem we've hit right here is the whole Venom storyline was a bad idea, it seems like just yesterday we couldn't get rid of the guy and now he's back. If, and they plan to, they start introducing new villains..it'll be different enough to please new readers, and old readers..while maintaining their desire to slightly alter and update Spider-man's origin.

But anyways, as you said, we will probably disagree so that's fine.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

Just admit it: you have a thing for redheads.

[murph0]

I can't stand girls with red hair (I'm blonde only, baby!), however..if I ever run into one that looks like the way Romita Sr drew her..I might have to change my opinion.

 

Brian