Old Label vs New Label

[KingOfRulers]

But what you're ignoring is that they were not the only entities involved in the process. I do not say they are good or bad for the hobby. I don't know where you have me saying that? But for better or worse they have a right to be here just like everyone else...

 

Right to be here? Sure. Anybody has a right to do whatever they please. Doesn't mean they are good for a hobby. In limited quantities, the hobby will be fine. In large quantities, they have the potential to damage the hobby as was evidenced in the 90s. I think there are enough speculators around these days to cause worry that another adjustment is on the horizon...

 

Jim

 

And why do you keep suggesting I am saying I believe they are good for the hobby. I haven't said that and I won't say that. I just said in the last post I do not say they are good or bad for the hobby. Did you read that part?

[KingOfRulers]

 

How many businesses have you run, arse-wipe? I'm on my fourth, and in-between times I have actually written a book, which is now with a publishing house...full MSS, all the works.

 

And this year, my flag-ship business produced its best ever sales figures in June, which we bettered in July, and then bettered again in August. Our net worth is at the moment 45% up on what it was at the end of December 2005.

 

When you've actually done something with your life, have achieved something of note, you can come around and tell us all that we know nothing.

 

Until then, you're simply producing more methane than a whole herd of cattle.

 

 

What does any of your life or mine have to do with it? We are talking economic theory--not how many businesses you or I claim to own. What a person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed bag.

 

My life experience, and your own lack of, tends to bring knowledge and insight, or lack of.

 

When you have seen it all and done it all...rather than read a bit in a few books....you can tell us all why you know best....and at that point, some of us might even consider taking your seriously.

 

But I doubt it.

 

Whatever you say chief. You've seen it all and done it all---the top dog...the big man on campus...the one who knows all and sees all. So I guess you're going to go stick your head up your a s s for another few years now that you've got all of those feelings out?

 

No....it appears that English is possibly your 4th language, and the comprehension of same is sorely lacking. I said (and you quoted me) that when you had seen it all and done it all, you can tell us what's best. Not that I had.

 

When you're solely resorting to insults...and your posts contain nothing of any substance other than that...it's time to give it up.

 

Soley resorting to insults? ....... I guess you are disregarding the basic economic principles talked about. But then again, you have all of those down because you've run four businesses

 

Keep fighting the "good" fight, I'm going to get some grub.

[Red Hook]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

[squidmo2000]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

[comicdonna]

But what you're ignoring is that they were not the only entities involved in the process. I do not say they are good or bad for the hobby. I don't know where you have me saying that? But for better or worse they have a right to be here just like everyone else...

 

Right to be here? Sure. Anybody has a right to do whatever they please. Doesn't mean they are good for a hobby. In limited quantities, the hobby will be fine. In large quantities, they have the potential to damage the hobby as was evidenced in the 90s. I think there are enough speculators around these days to cause worry that another adjustment is on the horizon...

 

Jim

Can someone give me a short definition of a speculator?

 

I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression of me. I collect comics, because I have always been fascinated with the GA covers. To me, my comic collecting is my greatest enjoyment outside of my immediate family. I also think of my books, as a possible retirement investment. What fine line separates a collector from a speculator? It seems to me, that a speculator must has some appreciation for comics, otherwise, why would he/she choose comics as an investment?

 

I know that this is an intense thread, and I am not looking for a hostile reply, just some input, on the difference between a collector and a speculator.

[Red Hook]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

 

You do know I was being sarcastic...right?

[squidmo2000]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

 

You do know I was being sarcastic...right?

Of course...

[Foolkiller]

 

An entirely different matter? I'm plugging in a "widgets" argument. If you have a product, any product, and you feed the masses with it because of demand you are doing the same thing that was being done in the 90s with a product. Why does it make a difference whether that product is a collectible or not? Can you explain why in the world of meeting demand that makes any difference? Because it might "hurt" the market?

 

 

It certainly does matter. The collectibles market is not like the food market which is not like the automobile market and so on. They have different ways in which their item is sold. Just to pull a term from BASIC economics, something from the world of comics would be considered a very "elastic" good unlike a car which would be considered more "inelastic". So you cannot simply plug any product and then compare as if they were on even fields, because if the products are too far away in nature then many of the base attributes are different. You could probably compare comics to something like the stamp market, coin market or model train market because they are all very elastic goods. Elasticity in a product influences the demand of a product...I am quite suprised you don't know this.

 

Which leads me to, even if you predicted that the there was an overflood, how would you be able to predict that this would definitively cause some sort of collapse. You are asking the owners to have seen this coming, which is like saying if I knew Enron was going to collapse, I never would have bought their stock and the employees should have known to quit. Well, duh. Don't promote something you know is going to be harmful. Was that really within their ability?

 

That's why I said, "IF". If in some way they predicted it. If you want to compare it to Enron, then there were some people who did in fact get out. Not a lot. I think its around the 150-ish area. To go back to comics, the owners of a store are supposed to do everything in their power to be successful. The includes trying to predict market trends. If they saw it coming then so be it, if they didn't...well that's the alternative. I'm just thinking that some amount of owners would look at who they are selling 25 or 50, or 100 copies of something to and understand WHY they are buying so many copies. Once they understood why they were buying so many copies, then one could take an educated guess that whenever the market at large decides it wants to cash in on all of these books, then we may be in serious trouble.

 

And let's say that the owner doesn't make money "now" who's to ensure that they "will" make money later? Why do you think that these comic shops would have survived if "only" they hadn't pandered to those greedy speculators.

I'm not saying they would have necessarily would have survived. They might have gone out, BUT I'd guess they went out with very little leftover inventory unlike the stores that might have stayed open a little longer.

 

Basically, I really don't understand your argument. It lacks some basic points of logic, and I think what we need is someone who's actually run a store to come on and explain why this is either correct or flawed, but needs to be done in a much more clear fashion.

 

That's okay. I think your point lacks some basic economic points such as predicting market trends and the concept of elasticity But that's okay, you're still a good guy.

 

King,

 

My way is not to dump on people or make snide remarks. I could, but I don't, it doesn't make your argument better. New comics are NOT akin to a collectible first, I think of them as a publication/periodical first bought for entertainment first. That's the way many new comic readers view them, and while there is a collectible aspect to it, the owners view it less as marketing a collectible and more as a product.

 

If you think I don't understand some basic market points, I suggest you finish your college degree, get some real world experience and not pretend that at 19, you've figured out the answers to the comic book market.

 

Again, what I'd like is someone who has actually run a store, perhaps even Lighthouse or Shadroch to come on and explain the trends and issues surrounding ordering in a store and what happened in the 90s.

[qualitycomix]

King,

 

My way is not to dump on people or make snide remarks. I could, but I don't, it doesn't make your argument better. New comics are NOT akin to a collectible first, I think of them as a publication/periodical first bought for entertainment first. That's the way many new comic readers view them, and while there is a collectible aspect to it, the owners view it less as marketing a collectible and more as a product.

 

If you think I don't understand some basic market points, I suggest you finish your college degree, get some real world experience and not pretend that at 19, you've figured out the answers to the comic book market.

 

Again, what I'd like is someone who has actually run a store, perhaps even Lighthouse or Shadroch to come on and explain the trends and issues surrounding ordering in a store and what happened in the 90s.

 

Wikipedia link

[Foolkiller]

who wrote that piece Brent?

 

Anyway, there's nothing to disagree with and that's all history which most of us know.

 

Here's the bottom line to me:

 

The speculators and over saturation of the market causes the downfall. But the shop owners themselves are responsible for placing orders and filling them. If somebody wants to buy 500 copies of a book and places an order for them, then the shop should continue to supply them.

 

What I don't understand is how the store serves itself by not filling the order. Either way, if the market tanks, they are going to suffer because the overall market suffers.

 

Who owes the responsibility? King is saying that the store owners are responsible, and my response continues to be, no, it's the demand and the companies who specifically catered to meet that demand, not the store owner who is filling out orders and selling books as essentially a middle man.

[awe4one]

And why do you keep suggesting I am saying I believe they are good for the hobby. I haven't said that and I won't say that. I just said in the last post I do not say they are good or bad for the hobby. Did you read that part?

 

Sure...but you're also trying to defend their place in a healthy marketplace. I contend they are not healthy which has been proven in the past.

 

Jim

[awe4one]

Who owes the responsibility? King is saying that the store owners are responsible, and my response continues to be, no, it's the demand and the companies who specifically catered to meet that demand, not the store owner who is filling out orders and selling books as essentially a middle man.

 

And you would be correct...to a point. The vast majority of store owners were catering to the speculative craze and can't be faulted for ordering to meet demand. They are in business to make money. Some store owners on the otherhand were actively feeding the craze in the early 90s (anyone remember Bulldog or Mile High and their hyping and/or buying of Valiants?). Those owners, though they were limited in number, are at fault as well...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

 

With no idea of what might have been around the corner, they had a simple choice....sell as much as possible to the hordes swarming in through the doors....or let the guy up the road sell to them instead.

 

 

EXACTLY! same with baseball and non-sport cards. Create and sell as much product/sets as fast as you can while you can or "they" will get the money not you. The crazy money will stop at some point - - get it while the gettings good. Business 101.

[Foolkiller]

Who owes the responsibility? King is saying that the store owners are responsible, and my response continues to be, no, it's the demand and the companies who specifically catered to meet that demand, not the store owner who is filling out orders and selling books as essentially a middle man.

 

And you would be correct...to a point. The vast majority of store owners were catering to the speculative craze and can't be faulted for ordering to meet demand. They are in business to make money. Some store owners on the otherhand were actively feeding the craze in the early 90s (anyone remember Bulldog or Mile High and their hyping and/or buying of Valiants?). Those owners, though they were limited in number, are at fault as well...

 

Jim

 

And there you and I are in total agreement.

[FlyingDonut]

Well I PM'd Mister_not_so_nice and he remembered the scans.

I couldn't find it last night in this forum but it was in the Copper forum Not sure how relevent it is to this evolving discussion LINK Scroll down to see the scans.

 

The speculator kid's expressions are priceless.

 

Those are some very funny scans. Again, we're back at the same old point. Comics are poor investment vehicles. They are meant to be collected for fun and enjoyment. For appreciation of art and story. For nostalgia. Not to get rich.

 

I've tried to stay out of all of this, because its the same old compostable_fertilizer from the same old people, but that phrase "comics are poor investment vehicles" is patently ridiculous, and is always brought up when this speculator *spoon* gets tossed up (again, always by the same people, some of whom have been banned from this board at least twice and keep coming back under new IDs, but that's a completely different issue).

 

Not all comics are "poor investment vehicles", just as much as not all stocks are poor investment vehicles. If you know what you're doing, and are investing money you can be OK with losing, comics are just as good a speculative investment as anything else. Do people lose their shirts "investing" in comics? Yes, they do - and people lose their shirts investing in the stock market, or in real estate, or in commodities, or in bonds. Many, many, many people do quite well, thank you, "investing" part of their money in comics. Its the same as anything else. Do your research, be an informed investor, and you'll be just fine.

 

But of course, that would be contrary to everybody's OH MY GOD THE SKY IS FALLING beliefs about how everybody is losing their shirts and everybody is going to be eating cat food and the market is being manipulated and .

 

[comicwiz]

If I have a book with an old label, and it includes comments "rusted staples" on it, and I send it in to be reholdered, the new label will not mention the "rusted staples." comment any longer

 

Now some might not think this is a big deal because you can see the rust yourself, but trying doing this with a squarebound (i.e. giant-sized) comic.

 

The one thing I preferred about the old labels is that they included comments.

[lizards2]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

 

Yeah, but look where Cat is now.....,

[KingOfRulers]

 

King,

 

My way is not to dump on people or make snide remarks. I could, but I don't, it doesn't make your argument better.

Whether you believe it or not, are aware of it or not, you have more than once resorted to that. That is just from what I have read. I of course cannot speak for threads I did not participate in.

 

New comics are NOT akin to a collectible first, I think of them as a publication/periodical first bought for entertainment first. That's the way many new comic readers view them, and while there is a collectible aspect to it, the owners view it less as marketing a collectible and more as a product.

 

If you think I don't understand some basic market points, I suggest you finish your college degree, get some real world experience and not pretend that at 19, you've figured out the answers to the comic book market.

You're the one who was comparing comics and IPods, not me. I was as a matter of fact giving you examples to why that is a flawed comparison. I am not pretending anything. It seems that much of anyones arguement is soley based on my age. Had I kept my identity a secret as many here do, it would have made no difference. But why would I do that? I have nothing to hide. When you have no other logical point to arguement, that is the only point you bring up. I've heard it all before.

 

So, do you think because you are the age you are that you are the all knowing, and all mighty? It seems you do sometimes. You're opinion or analysis is no more valuable or less valuable then mine, or any other board member here.

[KingOfRulers]

 

Who owes the responsibility? King is saying that the store owners are responsible, and my response continues to be, no, it's the demand and the companies who specifically catered to meet that demand, not the store owner who is filling out orders and selling books as essentially a middle man.

 

And as I have stated before, flocking to meet a demand without analysis of the nature and reason of the demand is not a good business practice. I suppose you disagree with that. But in my opinion, blindly seeking to fulfill a demand can backfire as evidence has shown. It probably won't backfire most of the time, but I'm just saying it can.

 

And the crash was not just the fault of people fulfilling the demand. There were multiple steps which caused it. No single actor in the market was purely at fault.

[Red Hook]

Father

 

I was once like you are now, and I know that its not easy,

To be calm when youve found something going on.

But take your time, think a lot,

Why, think of everything youve got.

For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

 

Son

 

How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.

Its always been the same, same old story.

From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.

Now theres a way and I know that I have to go away.

I know I have to go.

 

- Cat Stevens

 

Yeah, but look where Cat is now.....,

 

Well, he said he "had to go".......guess we know where now......