Valiants...

[Kevin Boyd]

What's scary is that Jim managed to get Ditko away from his political essays to do his last bit of published SF work for the Dork Dominion title.

 

That Jism title was pretty awful.... sent Dave Lapham off to rethink his career choices. There were at least two others right? The Good Guys and Charlemagne.... all DOA.

 

There are literally truckloads of Warriors of Plasm 1 floating around out there for future landfill projects. Or perhaps they could be recycled for toilet paper. Although I'm not sure if after the recycling process that they will be good enough to wipe with.

 

On the other hand, I was kind of looking forward to Shooter's Avengers mini that got scrapped when negotiations went south. Maybe he'll try to get back in after Sony officially buys Marvel in the new year.

 

Kev

 

 

[blowout]

".....after Sony officially buys Marvel in the new year. "

 

what do you know about this?

i haven't heard anything about sony buying marvel.

i was under the impression that because of the tangle that marvel's licencing deals were in, that no media company was interested in them.

[Kevin Boyd]

Most of what I've been reading is strictly rumor, but it's pretty evident that Marvel's top brass have been courting investors to buy the company. Compared to where it was a few years ago the company is much more solvent and palatable than it was during the bankruptcy days. They've cleared up much of their debt, have a line of books that is outselling the competition by a margin of over 20% each month and they have the hottest stable of characters in the market.

 

Not to mention that Sony has made A LOT of money off of Spider-Man this year. If Marvel were to be purchased by Sony, which I think is quite likely to happen, then those licensing deals made with Marvel before the buyout would now be licensing deals with the Sony Corporation.... which means that Sony gets a cut of three of the big movie events of 2003.... Daredevil, X-Men 2 and the Hulk. Not to mention the deal with Artisan that included 15 middle-to-lower tier Marvel characters, and New Line's inevitable Blade III.

 

Rich Johnston has been following this story over the last few months, and in his latest column he primarily concentrates on Marvel's supposed financial state and the fact that Sony seems to be interested and involved in Marvel's management reorganization. True, his column is a rumor column.... anyway, here's the link:

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

 

Kev

[delekkerste]

I've heard a lot of rumors that Marvel is being shopped around as well, with Sony the likely suitor. I think there is even some mention of a projected buyout at the end of Dan Raviv's book "Comic Wars" released earlier this year.

 

I think the cross-licensing mess is still a big concern, though...a buyout would allow Sony to get Marvel's cut of the movies coming out, but the real money to be made is in making the films itself (as it did with Spider-Man). Still, if the Spidey franchise is perceived to be valuable enough, it could still be worth it for Sony.

 

Another concern I would have as Sony is whether I would want a company that still receives a disproportionately high percentage of its revenues from toy sales. I wonder if the toy and publishing divisions would be under better stewardship with Sony than under Marvel as a stand-alone entity - these divisions could be neglected, sold-off, restructured, etc. under new management.

 

Plus, with Sony's stock price falling off a cliff since May, an acquisition of Marvel will dilute its earnings per share.

 

We will see...it could still very well happen. If there's one thing I learned in the M&A business, it's that people are often motivated by ego and other factors that have nothing to do with creating value.

 

Gene

[Kevin Boyd]

Hey Gene, I have mixed feelings about such a takeover myself, but if Sony did have one success story this last year, it was with the Spider-Man film.

 

Now I have no idea what the going price for Marvel would be, but I believe that during the course of this Stan Lee lawsuit it was revealed that Marvel received a payout somewhere in the neighbourhood of $15-20 million dollars for the rights to the Spider-Man film. They are supposed to receive a percentage of the ticket sales as part of the deal as well.

 

The payout for the second film will likely be larger, and Sony is committed to making Spider-Man an international movie franchise that can be milked every two years for an additional $200-300 million dollars (NA box office) with additional revenues for DVD, Home Video and PPV and televion broadcast rights. Along with the international box office and related profits, Spider-Man has the potential to earn close to a billion dollars for the corporation every couple of years.

 

So from their point of view, if Marvel can prove that the publishing wing is self-sufficient and a money earner, as Marvel has been bending over backwards trying to be for the last few years... then they gain the rights to the other characters and the publishing and toy manufacturing wings as a bonus. Presumably Toy Biz is a part of the potential deal, and if that wing is profitable I'm sure it would continue to operate. However, if Sony already owns their own toy company (I don't know if they do or don't) then Toy Biz could be absorbed or dismantled and absorbed into their existing structure.

 

Also, by having a publishing wing in-house, they have an outlet to maintain their other intellectual properties... to let them simmer on the backburner, so to speak. Plus they can use the characters as they choose, Spider-Man can be used to hawk electronics without paying a licensing fee.

 

Does Time/Warner regret owning DC Comics?

 

Kev

[delekkerste]

Hey Kev, I agree that Sony would be the front-runner and could make it work, but here are some more things to consider:

 

Toy Biz is in bad shape and I don't see an electronics conglomerate like Sony wanting to hawk action figures. Also, the fact that Toy Biz pays Marvel little/none in the way of licensing fees hurts the value of the company. I'm not sure how easy it would be to sell off Toy Biz and renegotiate these contracts (particularly since Arad and Perlmutter, the Toy Biz founders, pretty much call the shots at Marvel anyway - remember, it was Toy Biz that took over Marvel post-bankruptcy - all the other execs like Jemas are mere cogs in their machine).

 

As for DC Comics, I'm not even sure they are profitable right now, but AOL is so huge that I don't think anyone really cares. Also, AOL is more of a pure media company than Sony, which is really a consumer electronics manufacturer that happens to own some media assets, so it is arguably a better fit.

 

I'm not sure I'd want the Japanese owning Marvel...especially if it means that the art becomes all goofy manga-styled again. I wonder if Marvel wouldn't be a better fit for Viacom or Universal (if the latter's assets are sold off from Vivendi, as has been rumored)...though, without the Spidey franchise, I don't know how valuable it would be to anyone other than Sony.

 

Bottom line: Marvel is not a perfect fit for anyone, which is why it hasn't been sold yet. Sony is probably the best suitor out of an imperfect bunch. It's really a toss-up whether it happens or not. As I said, it wouldn't surprise me. God knows we've seen far, far worse combinations over the past few years!

 

Gene

[Kevin Boyd]

Can't really argue with your points Gene.

 

And your point about DC is exactly why I think Marvel would be considered an asset for Sony's entertainment division. AOL/T/W keeps DC going simply because it is in their best interest to keep the assets in the public eye, and provides them with some fertile ground creatively (although they sure don't make very good use of those resources). I'm sure the Batman and Superman licensing revenues alone outshine any money that DC makes on their books, especially at the numbers they are.

 

So they scrap the toy line or dismantle that aspect of the company as quickly as they cam and make some licensing deals with a company that will do the characters justice.

 

Good god, no more manga art on Marvel books... please! I loathe that style of artwork on superhero comics. I can appreciate it in anime and manga comics, but not on the X-Men or *shudder* Spidey.

 

Would the Corp. mess with Marvel if they take over? Not sure. I could see them leaving Joe Q in the EIC chair if what he's doing is benefitting the line, but I could see Bill Jemas moving on to greener pastures.

 

Kev

[blowout]

"Good god, no more manga art on Marvel books... please! I loathe that style of artwork on superhero comics. I can appreciate it in anime and manga comics, but not on the X-Men or *shudder* Spidey."

 

have to agree with that kev.

manga has its place for sure, but do marvel have to put their heroes through every possible hoop to make a buck?

hope they don't oversaturate poor spidey, because of movie success. did you guys read the manga version of the punisher? now, that was embarassing

[Kevin Boyd]

The manga Punisher spanked people for a living didn't she? No, I made sure to avoid that entire series of "Marvel Mangaverse". I cringe everytime I see a solicitation for Legend of the Spider-Clan.

 

I know why they do it though... go to any major convention and you see comic collectors haggling and debating over books priced at a $1, while teenage Anime collectors (many of them girls) spend a boatload of cash on the most ridiculous items, CDs, DVDs, videos, scrolls, cheap plastic toys. Marvel just wants a piece of that action.

 

Kev

[FlComicFan]

kind of ironic the Spider-Man movie comes out and makes an astronomical amount of $ like 700 Million+ and going plus an expected amount equal for the dvd sales yet the Spidey comics sell what 40,000 copies a month . Comics are going to be extinct soon only to live on in video games, movies, toys etc. What a shame. Chet

[Kevin Boyd]

It is... but the question that always arises is why do comics sell so poorly? Spidey sales are actually more than double the figure you quoted, but that still sucks compared to the 250,000 copies that Spidey was selling consistantly during the 70's and 80's (according to the circulation figures quoted in the Krause guide).

 

There are millions of people out there who saw and liked the Spider-Man movie. Heck the DVD itself goes out of its way to show people that the comics are still around.

 

We've all got our pet theories, but I believe that what's killing comic book sales in North America are the following:

 

(1) Format - not enough bang for your buck

(2) Price - too many bucks for too little bang

(3) Availability - what is a comic shop? where is a comic shop?

(4) Content - books are not written for entry level consumers

(5) Collectibility - what's the point of buying it if they can't read it, as they are told that if they read it it loses it's value

 

Why do you think Marvel and DC are shifting their focus towards tradepaperbacks and hardcovers? I think it's because all the problems above are not an issue with those volumes.

 

(1) Format - complete stories

(2) Price - higher but there is more content and they are usually cheaper than buying individual issues

(3) Availability - more deals are being signed with mainstream outlets to distribute and sell tradepaperbacks

(4) Content - much more suited for entry level consumers because they get a somewhat complete picture when they buy a complete storyline

(5) Collectibility - they are designed to be read and re-read, and aside from some limited edition hardcovers, there isn't a huge secondary market for collected editions.

 

Comic sales are merely maintaining sales, while collected edition sales are up and haven't really slowed in almost a decade of growth and expansion.

 

Kev

[blowout]

"(3) Availability - what is a comic shop? where is a comic shop?"

 

of all your points kev (and i agree with all of them by the way) i think this is the crucial one.

make comics available in grocery stores etc as the used to be, and this one factor with see a big spike in comic sales IMHO.

one of the worst things the comic industry ever did in terms of keeping its long-term reader base was shift solely to the direct market and into specialist stores.

comics are entertainment, first and foremost, and should not be sold in a place where only collectors can find them.

[Kevin Boyd]

I agree that it was a terrible decision to remove comics from those outlets BUT I don't disagree with the logic to do so because:

 

(a) the stores didn't want to carry comics - they cost 1/2 - 1/3 less than most magazines and take up valuable shelf space. Changes in the rules on periodicals in the 1980's increased the volume of specialty magazines immensely. Think of the old system as cable and the new one as direct tv - 50 channels vs. 500. Comics were not profitable enough to stay viable in that new system.

 

Lucky for them they knew a place to keep selling comics. Chances are if there wasn't a direct market that comics as we know them would have all but disappeared in the mid-1980's.

 

(b) the magazine distributors who carried comics in the 1970's were doing things that were out and out criminal with comics - essentially selling the comics that were going to those stores to the fledgling comics distributors. The comic book companies simpy said why not sell to them directly to actually see some returns. Of course, the magazine distributors didn't take kindly to this and without those additional returns began to discrease their orders to only the books that were selling - Spidey, Batman, Superman, Hulk, FF, etc.

 

Kev

[blowout]

"the stores didn't want to carry comics - they cost 1/2 - 1/3 less than most magazines and take up valuable shelf space. "

 

i'm not sure if that is still the case though with rising comic prices, but then the bang for buck issue comes into play.

i would like to see more comics like marvel knights, vertigo, superman, spider-man etc collected edition type comics htting newstands/ grocery stores.

not as expensive as higher stock TP'S and maybe less content, perhaps 3/4 collected comic stories (like the recent marvel 'must have' collections) this would put them more on a par with magazines in terms of price and content.