PGC Mint Sales

[clarkkentdds]

I used to buy from Wilson when he had "World's Finest" several years ago. Very nice professional guy who graded accurately. Fair prices for premium books. However, since he sold his "World's Finest" inventory (I believe mainly through the first Greg Manning) and opened PGC, I've noticed a disturbing practice.

 

On a regular basis, he is compiling the PGC inventory through well publicized Heritage and Ebay auctions. A premium is paid for a book at Heritage (the price documented via the auction archive) and 2 months later it shows up on his website for about 50%+ more...If he really is investing his mortgage on these books, that's a major risk to play in the collectibles market.

 

Most of the books he has acquired through such auctions are the "highest graded" that he touts on his site. I know of only a handful of collectors with the deep pockets to compete for some of these books, and we are all aware of Heritage. He is bidding against the very same group of collectors that he wants to peruse HIS inventory. So that same handful of people that he beat at auction is now going to pay more through PGC???

 

The type of clientele that Wilson wants to attract are the same type of people that watch the big Heritage Auctions...Savy collectors that seek opportunity to snatch a pedigree book when it comes on the market. With the advent of CGC and the census, it is simple to research the archives. Unlike ten years ago, we can identify slabbed books easily, and the "middle man's" profit is blaringly obvious! Before CGC, the census, and the magic of auction archives, the middle man was our friend who located that difficult book; the middle man's profit was unknown. A collector is much more likely to purchase a book if he is unaware of the middle man's mark up. The handful of collectors that would peruse his inventory are now well informed of the "mystery mark-up", and thus way more resistant to buy!

 

Wilson took a gamble during CGC's infancy... Prices paid for high grade GA books have fallen slightly since the first Heritage Auction. I see one of two potential scenarios for the high grade GA inventory at PGC; these books will eventually sell via another large auction at cost or close to cost. Or Wilson will have to wait a significant amount of time to make a profit- It will take a significant amount of time for the handful of elite collectors to accept the middle man's profit.

[Aman619]

good post... I think he will lose. We will see.

[fantastic_four]

I've seen Mark turn over book after book after book after book. You're right, he has been buying tons of stuff at all the premier auctions for years, but I rarely see major amounts of inventory sit on his site for too long. I assume most of it doesn't sell for the prices he lists them at, but some of it does, and I'm sure he's making a profit, or he wouldn't keep doing it.

 

He HAS to have some golden customer contacts after this many years as a high-end dealer.

[500Club]

send him an email and he will exlain how he has mortgaged his family's assets buying these books at far above retail...totally blissfully (hes very religious) confident that hes gotten them cheap and prices will skyrocket in the future. I kid you not.

 

Sounds like Ralph Kramden to me!!

 

I'm not sure I buy this.... I think he has a fair amount of operating capital and can nurse inventory. Didn't he turn up a large distirutor collection with multiples of the 1968 Marvel #1s?

[Aman619]

send him an email and he will exlain how he has mortgaged his family's assets buying these books at far above retail...totally blissfully (hes very religious) confident that hes gotten them cheap and prices will skyrocket in the future. I kid you not.

 

Sounds like Ralph Kramden to me!!

 

I'm not sure I buy this.... I think he has a fair amount of operating capital and can nurse inventory. Didn't he turn up a large distirutor collection with multiples of the 1968 Marvel #1s?

 

 

....okay dont believe me! no really, he is totally convinced. ask him.

[CosmicBob]

Most of the books he has acquired through such auctions are the "highest graded" that he touts on his site. I know of only a handful of collectors with the deep pockets to compete for some of these books, and we are all aware of Heritage. He is bidding against the very same group of collectors that he wants to peruse HIS inventory. So that same handful of people that he beat at auction is now going to pay more through PGC???

 

I've noticed this too, with the books I bid on. Someone will win it at a very high price and then it turns up at PGC Mint (or even Metropolis) with a huge markup. If I wasn't willing to pay the Heritage price, why would I pay even more? I think that a lot of those SA DCs are just going to sit there.

[jonnydouble]

Most of the books he has acquired through such auctions are the "highest graded" that he touts on his site. I know of only a handful of collectors with the deep pockets to compete for some of these books, and we are all aware of Heritage. He is bidding against the very same group of collectors that he wants to peruse HIS inventory. So that same handful of people that he beat at auction is now going to pay more through PGC???

 

I've noticed this too, with the books I bid on. Someone will win it at a very high price and then it turns up at PGC Mint (or even Metropolis) with a huge markup. If I wasn't willing to pay the Heritage price, why would I pay even more? I think that a lot of those SA DCs are just going to sit there.

 

You would be surprised...I've seen many of them move...case in point that Wonder Woman #105 9.4 that sold on heritage for 7800.00... PGC had it listed for over a year for 11500.00...and it just recently sold for 10k...ythats a nice 2k+ profit for holding a book for a year.

 

J.D.

[dam60]

I've noticed this too, with the books I bid on. Someone will win it at a very high price and then it turns up at PGC Mint (or even Metropolis) with a huge markup. If I wasn't willing to pay the Heritage price, why would I pay even more? I think that a lot of those SA DCs are just going to sit there.

 

When I was at the Heritage auction in March in NYC, I was amazed at how some of these dealers would just sit their with there hands raised. Unreal . . .

 

It's true - if you really wanted a copy of AF 15 cgc 9.4, isn't it better to cough up $90K in March 2003 than $150K in August 2003? A 67% return in 5 months!!! Sign me up!

 

DAM

[Kevin76]

I've noticed this too, with the books I bid on. Someone will win it at a very high price and then it turns up at PGC Mint (or even Metropolis) with a huge markup. If I wasn't willing to pay the Heritage price, why would I pay even more? I think that a lot of those SA DCs are just going to sit there.

 

When I was at the Heritage auction in March in NYC, I was amazed at how some of these dealers would just sit their with there hands raised. Unreal . . .

 

It's true - if you really wanted a copy of AF 15 cgc 9.4, isn't it better to cough up $90K in March 2003 than $150K in August 2003? A 67% return in 5 months!!! Sign me up!

 

DAM

 

don't expect a AF 15 9.4 to sell for 90K again anytime soon

[Aman619]

don't expect a AF 15 9.4 to sell for 90K again anytime soon

 

realy? why not? I wouldnt pay it, I miss the good ol days when it was overpriced at $40,000! But it is what it is. A super high grade copy of what is and will stay one of the three or five best book sto own long term. Spidey isnt just the movie hype. Just like the Superman movies and Batman movies dont fully explain why Action#1 and Tec 27 are forever going to be #1 and #2 best comics to own.

 

But the phenominal movie success (regardless of how the sequels do) plus Spidey's 40-years of popularity and merchandising, has truly elevated AF15 into that same level of popular conciousness, translating into a very valuable collectible even to "outsiders."

 

90K is a lot of money for a silver age key.....but long term??? a bargain. Even $150K is a bargain loooooonger term, just not nearly as profitable a deal. Seriously, you dont see a 9.4 AF15 selling for $200K ++ in your lifetime??

 

 

ps...I just looked at the census and I will amend my comments. There are already five 9.4s. To me, thats not as rare as I thought. Last I looked there were fewer. So - - - I still stand by everything aabove, except I was talking about the lone 9.6 copy!! No that's a copout. ..

I still say 90K is a good deal long term. Just not as much of a slam dunk as before because the upside may not be as lucrative given the supply available.

[Kevin76]

don't expect a AF 15 9.4 to sell for 90K again anytime soon

 

realy? why not? I wouldnt pay it, I miss the good ol days when it was overpriced at $40,000! But it is what it is. A super high grade copy of what is and will stay one of the three or five best book sto own long term. Spidey isnt just the movie hype. Just like the Superman movies and Batman movies dont fully explain why Action#1 and Tec 27 are forever going to be #1 and #2 best comics to own.

 

But the phenominal movie success (regardless of how the sequels do) plus Spidey's 40-years of popularity and merchandising, has truly elevated AF15 into that same level of popular conciousness, translating into a very valuable collectible even to "outsiders."

 

90K is a lot of money for a silver age key.....but long term??? a bargain. Even $150K is a bargain loooooonger term, just not nearly as profitable a deal. Seriously, you dont see a 9.4 AF15 selling for $200K ++ in your lifetime??

 

 

ps...I just looked at the census and I will amend my comments. There are already five 9.4s. To me, thats not as rare as I thought. Last I looked there were fewer. So - - - I still stand by everything aabove, except I was talking about the lone 9.6 copy!! No that's a copout. ..

I still say 90K is a good deal long term. Just not as much of a slam dunk as before because the upside may not be as lucrative given the supply available.

 

Why not? I'll tell you why not...spider-man is the next superman...that's why,If i had the 150K i'd buy it..5 copies is rare..your talking 5 9.4's in the world..gee I think alot more than 5 people in this world want this book.

[CosmicBob]

Why not? I'll tell you why not...spider-man is the next superman...that's why,If i had the 150K i'd buy it..5 copies is rare..your talking 5 9.4's in the world..gee I think alot more than 5 people in this world want this book.

 

Yeah, but do a lot more than 5 people in this world have 150 grand to spend on this one book? Maybe. Maybe not. I know if I had that money and HAD to spend it on comic books, I wouldn't buy that one. I would pick up an Action #1 or a Tec #27. Sure, they wouldn't be CGC 9.4, but they'd be as solid an investment as the AF#15, I think.

[Kevin76]

Bob,

If I had that kind of cash,I'd buy all 3,cause if I had 150K i'd most likely be rich anyway.So F it

[500Club]

Why not? I'll tell you why not...spider-man is the next superman...that's why,If i had the 150K i'd buy it..5 copies is rare..your talking 5 9.4's in the world..gee I think alot more than 5 people in this world want this book.

 

I'm with you on this one.... but I'd hold out for a price in the lower end of the sales range.

 

As Gene always quotes G Gecko - 'love it at $75K, hate it at $150K'.

 

I wonder if long term (30-50 years) AF 15 will close some of the value gap on Action 1 and Tec 27, owing to the popularity of Spider-Man.

[clarkkentdds]

If I was strictly looking for an investment, the AF 15 9.4 for $150K is the most foolish buy in the world...I would take the $150K and buy a diverse blend of mutual funds and stocks... AND if I really wanted the AF 15 9.4 as a COLLECTOR...Then I would have bought the darn book at the Heritage auction months prior! (As I said before.) Isn't this the same mentality that you all have? (collectors and investors)...

[Kevin76]

If I was strictly looking for an investment, the AF 15 9.4 for $150K is the most foolish buy in the world...I would take the $150K and buy a diverse blend of mutual funds and stocks... AND if I really wanted the AF 15 9.4 as a COLLECTOR...Then I would have bought the darn book at the Heritage auction months prior! (As I said before.) Isn't this the same mentality that you all have? (collectors and investors)...

 

Buy stocks?? you looking to spend money your willing to risk? feel free I'd take a AF 15 9.4 any day of the week over ANY stock..and the return is hardly anything on a stock purchase and safer,Just because one sold on Heritage for 90K,doesn't mean that is the new price for it.

[dam60]

Buy stocks?? you looking to spend money your willing to risk? feel free I'd take a AF 15 9.4 any day of the week over ANY stock..and the return is hardly anything on a stock purchase and safer,Just because one sold on Heritage for 90K,doesn't mean that is the new price for it.

 

I would respectfully disagree. I think that the AF 15 at $150K is COLLECTOR money, not INVESTOR money. If I was going to invest, I wouldn't buy that book - think of it like this, there are thousands of people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the stock market, and sure you only need two people to make a transaction but the market isn't big enough to make me comfortable laying that kind of money down as a comic book investment.

 

DAM

[Kevin76]

Buy stocks?? you looking to spend money your willing to risk? feel free I'd take a AF 15 9.4 any day of the week over ANY stock..and the return is hardly anything on a stock purchase and safer,Just because one sold on Heritage for 90K,doesn't mean that is the new price for it.

 

I would respectfully disagree. I think that the AF 15 at $150K is COLLECTOR money, not INVESTOR money. If I was going to invest, I wouldn't buy that book - think of it like this, there are thousands of people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the stock market, and sure you only need two people to make a transaction but the market isn't big enough to make me comfortable laying that kind of money down as a comic book investment.

 

DAM

 

Dam,

Would you spend 150K on a VF+ copy of Batman #1?

[dam60]

Buy stocks?? you looking to spend money your willing to risk? feel free I'd take a AF 15 9.4 any day of the week over ANY stock..and the return is hardly anything on a stock purchase and safer,Just because one sold on Heritage for 90K,doesn't mean that is the new price for it.

 

I would respectfully disagree. I think that the AF 15 at $150K is COLLECTOR money, not INVESTOR money. If I was going to invest, I wouldn't buy that book - think of it like this, there are thousands of people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the stock market, and sure you only need two people to make a transaction but the market isn't big enough to make me comfortable laying that kind of money down as a comic book investment.

 

DAM

 

Dam,

Would you spend 150K on a VF+ copy of Batman #1?

 

If I had the money to burn, sure!!

No way no how I could afford that book. That's the thing - the people that can afford to drop $150K on a book are small in number thus limiting the potential for a resale. Furthermore, even if I had the $150K for investment, I would rather buy 150 $1K books for investment than 1 $150K books because the potential for something going wrong is just way too high. Sure, it could be a great payday, but where do you think it will stop? With a 9.6 in the census, I don't see this book ever becoming even a $250K book (at least not in 2003 dollars).

 

Think of it like this - an Action 1 or a Detective 27 are rare PERIOD. They are impossible in grade, but I would say that there are less than 200 in existance of eithr book. Those two can support big prices. AF 15 is pretty abundant. No, it's not common by any stretch of the imagination in grade, but if you just wanted a copy, you could get a G-, FR/G for $500. You could never buy a A1 or 27 in any grade (or even a back cover) for that kind of money.

 

Plus, if this AF 15 is the one that Heritage sold in March in NYC, I saw the book with my own two eyes and held the slab in my hands. The book is an extremely "dirty" book that while being structurally sound, is not anywhere near as vibrant as Heritage's underexposed scans make it out to be. The book is just plain out ugly. To pay $150K for a 9.4 that looks like someone baked it in the over to get that brown isn't a good move. The better money would be to spend 1/2 that on a nice 9.2 with crisper pages and better eye appeal. Buy the book not the label, no?

 

DAM

[Kevin76]

Buy stocks?? you looking to spend money your willing to risk? feel free I'd take a AF 15 9.4 any day of the week over ANY stock..and the return is hardly anything on a stock purchase and safer,Just because one sold on Heritage for 90K,doesn't mean that is the new price for it.

 

I would respectfully disagree. I think that the AF 15 at $150K is COLLECTOR money, not INVESTOR money. If I was going to invest, I wouldn't buy that book - think of it like this, there are thousands of people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the stock market, and sure you only need two people to make a transaction but the market isn't big enough to make me comfortable laying that kind of money down as a comic book investment.

 

DAM

 

Dam,

Would you spend 150K on a VF+ copy of Batman #1?

 

If I had the money to burn, sure!!

No way no how I could afford that book. That's the thing - the people that can afford to drop $150K on a book are small in number thus limiting the potential for a resale. Furthermore, even if I had the $150K for investment, I would rather buy 150 $1K books for investment than 1 $150K books because the potential for something going wrong is just way too high. Sure, it could be a great payday, but where do you think it will stop? With a 9.6 in the census, I don't see this book ever becoming even a $250K book (at least not in 2003 dollars).

 

Think of it like this - an Action 1 or a Detective 27 are rare PERIOD. They are impossible in grade, but I would say that there are less than 200 in existance of eithr book. Those two can support big prices. AF 15 is pretty abundant. No, it's not common by any stretch of the imagination in grade, but if you just wanted a copy, you could get a G-, FR/G for $500. You could never buy a A1 or 27 in any grade (or even a back cover) for that kind of money.

 

Plus, if this AF 15 is the one that Heritage sold in March in NYC, I saw the book with my own two eyes and held the slab in my hands. The book is an extremely "dirty" book that while being structurally sound, is not anywhere near as vibrant as Heritage's underexposed scans make it out to be. The book is just plain out ugly. To pay $150K for a 9.4 that looks like someone baked it in the over to get that brown isn't a good move. The better money would be to spend 1/2 that on a nice 9.2 with crisper pages and better eye appeal. Buy the book not the label, no?

 

DAM

 

Nevermind DAM, You are too close minded on Batman,besides..your talkin 2003 prices...I'm talking retirement prices