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No More Grades, Just BIG NUMBERS!

Started by joe_collector,

635 posts in this topic

FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Its pretty much that simple.

 

That's the same thing Microsoft supporters/fanboys say when anyone brings up issues with their software.

 

Unfortunately, when you're dealing with a virtual monopoly, the old "don't buy it" statement is simplistic at best.

 

How is it simplistic? If you don't want to buy a CGC slabbed 9.6 copy of X-Men 134, buy any number of the 50,000 NON slabbed copies from a reputable dealer you trust. I just don't see your argument - if you don't want to use CGC, don't use them. Its not like you can't find the product anywhere else.

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Mutantcollector

Mutantcollector

Posted
Posted
You can technically say that have the alpha grade on the label is more information, but my point is that it doesn’t tell you any more information about the condition of the book. The “it’s taking away information” argument doesn’t make any sense to me because it’s not information that tells you anything more about the book. So what the argument comes down to is that you like seeing the alpha grade on the label. There is nothing wrong with this argument even if it is just personal preference.

 

What is the advantage of having the additional alpha grade? People like seeing and using the alpha grade. What is the disadvantage? People don’t like seeing and using the “minus” grade. What is the advantage of removing the alpha? People won’t have to see the “minus” grade. What is the disadvantage? People don’t get to see the alpha grade on the label. I just don’t see any clear advantage or disadvantage of having or not having the alpha grade on the label other then just personal preference.

 

I want to know how many thread were created when CGC first first came out with old label that had the alpha grade. I've been following these forums a little while and to the best of my knowledge, very few complained that the alpha grade WAS on the slab with the numeric grade. Other complaints about the label were made, but is there a post with over 400+ postings faulting CGC for having the alpha grade in the first place along side of the numeric grade. NM- has been around a whole lot longer than 9.2 I believe. YOU ARE STILL REMOVEING INFORMATION that helped make the label more easy to read.

 

These boards were not around when CGC first came out with the old label.

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Mutantcollector

Mutantcollector

Posted
Posted
I just don’t see any clear advantage or disadvantage of having or not having the alpha grade on the label other then just personal preference.

 

It is the wedge opening the door another crack to a more sterile environment. It is playing to people who are so uninformed they perceive the minus sign as a negative trait.

 

So do you not perceive the minus sign as a negative trait. I thought that was what the minus sign meant? I think you can be very well informed and still not like the minus sign. Yes not liking it on the label is arbitrary but so is not liking the removal of the alpha grade or any other aesthetics of the label. What is wrong with a sterile label, isn't it there to provide information about the book in an unbiased way.

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Mutantcollector

Mutantcollector

Posted
Posted
What is the advantage of having the additional alpha grade?

 

It's a widely accepted standard in comic collecting and in use by just about everyone but CGC.

 

I mean, CGC could drop the numerical grade if they wanted to and just use a symbol for each grade, or a different color label, a secret code, Braile, or anything they want to. These methods would fall under the EXACT "presents the same info" argument you espouse, but I doubt they would be well received.

 

How you present relevant info is more important than the info you present.

 

For example, I have a new idea for a grading structure. Here's a grade that I understand fully, it presents all the required info, so it should be no problem for you to understand:

 

CGC AD36

 

Talk about HIGH GRADE!! Whoo-eeee!

 

ok, but use a symbol for each grade, or a different color label, a secret code, Braile are inferior ways of presenting the alpha grade, and I believe the number grade is a better way a presenting the alpha grade.

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lighthouse

lighthouse

Posted
Posted
This is what I said about 400 posts ago - and I was promptly slapped around. I don't think they care if joe_collector doesn't use their services, and I think they probably don't care if "newbies" can't use their services.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Its pretty much that simple.

 

Is it? If I decide NOT to use CGC's services, will my comic collecting be unaffected by CGC?

 

YES.

 

You comic collecting is affected by CGC solely because you choose it to be. Were you a comic collector before CGC was around? CGC is a great service, don't get me wrong, and I think the world of them. They've provided significant input to the hobby, made my life a lot easier, and injected new blood into the marketplace.

 

That being said - if you don't want to use CGC's services, you can buy any number of the 99.5% of the rest of the comics being sold. If you want high grade, find a dealer you trust and buy from them. If you are using CGC for a restoration check, who cares what's on the label, as long as it is blue.

 

I have been avoiding saying this because even the Goth Princess thinks it will just start a fight... but here goes...

 

Why are the same people who are here complaining loudest about the removal of the alpha grade also the ones who constantly post "Buy the book not the label"?

 

Can someone please explain this to me? The same folks who moan and whine about the fact that you need to buy the book instead of the label are the ones whining about a change in that label... What difference did it make to you anyway?

 

Are you concerned your book won't look as pretty in your collection because of the label change? Are you concerned you will have a harder time selling the book to someone else because of the label change? Are you concerned you will have a harder time buying books for your collection because of the label change?

 

I can't see the argument that the book won't be as pretty in your collection. That's just ludicrous...

 

But I also can't see the argument that the book will be harder to sell. If you're selling to someone whose collection is chockful of CGC books, they aren't looking for word grades anyway. Tom Brulato doesn't buy books because they are "Near Mint Plus". He is famously quoted as saying, "The madness starts at nine-point-six." The elitist, anal-retentive collectors out there already talk in "nine-six" and "nine-eight". They don't care if Harley Yee says it's a "Near Mint Plus," they want to know if CGC says it's a "nine-six." There is no dealer alive who can get CGC 9.6 prices for raw "Near Mint Plus" books. So the absence of the letter codes certainly won't affect your ability to sell a CGC 9.4 copy of Spidey 14...

 

If you're selling to someone with no CGC books, they don't care what CGC said the grade was at all, letters or numbers. They want to see if the book is pretty and the opinion of some guy named Steve in Florida isn't gonna make a bit of difference to them. Folks who don't care about CGC won't care at all what's on the label. Ever try to sell someone their first CGC book? They're going to rank the CGC label right up there with the quality of the tape on a bag and board. So the difference between that label having letters or numbers or pictures of ferrets is going to be pretty meaningless to them.

 

So if this change doesn't affect how pretty the book is in your safety-deposit box, and it doesn't affect your ability to sell to CGC veterans, and it doesn't affect your ability to sell to CGC newbies, what exactly does it affect? Does it affect your ability to buy books? Will it be harder for you to find high-grade copies of your favorite title with the label change? Will it be harder for you to find reading copies of your favorite title?

 

I could see a thin argument here if this was coming from the "buy the label not the book" crowd. They really like the labels, and even the font change might be a big deal to them. But that's not who's complaining here... The folks complaining the loudest are the same people who are firmly in the "buy the book, not the label" camp... How does this possibly affect you?

 

I happen to like the change. There are a few people here who do. There are a handful of people who are indifferent, and there are many who think CGC was wrong to do so... But regardless of whether you like the change or dislike the change, I don't see how anyone here was hurt by it. And no matter how much you may dislike the changes CGC has made, I don't see how it is possible to suggest that you have suffered any damages as a result. And yet people here are acting like CGC ran over their dog...

 

Do what you have always done before. Buy the book and not the label...

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Mutantcollector

Mutantcollector

Posted
Posted

You know the funny thing is that I am really indifferent about the removial of the alpha grade. I have not tried to argue the removial of the alpha grade was right thing to do, only that it doesn't really matter. But... I am one of those wierdos who the Label is important to. I want the label to provide the information I need to decide to buy it or not and I want it to not be ugly. Putting a pretty comic in an ugly case really detracts from it.

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BestOf7-migration

BestOf7-migration

Posted
Posted
That's the same thing Microsoft supporters/fanboys say when anyone brings up issues with their software.

 

Unfortunately, when you're dealing with a virtual monopoly, the old "don't buy it" statement is simplistic at best.

 

That comparison is crude, and doesn't identify well with this topic.

 

You don't like the CGC product, then all you are doing is excluding a 3rd party grading service from getting involved with your collecting interests. You do have options. You can still buy RAW, and the BIG NUMBER label has no impact on CGC's market recognized grading standards, should you decide to buy already slabbed comics. Alternatively, you can send your comics to your buddies over at CGG

 

On the other hand, Microsoft produces an operating system, and a wide array of enterprise applications. Their market penetration is well-noted. Monopolistic, perhaps. But unless you decide you want to spend the rest of your days finding drivers and applications to work with your Linux OS, or to join the cultists that are periodically found humming to work with a Powerbook tucked under their arm, then you really don't have much of an option other than to use the Microsoft product.

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
But FF, this is EXACTLY what worries me... do we really want CGC defining / determining the grading guidelines for comic books? They're already heading in this direction... And if the answer is "YES, please, give us 'standardized grading' from one impartial source," then I'm okay with that...except CGC has never been very forthcoming with their grading guidelines...they give us glimpses of the tail and the trunk, but they never unveil the entire beast to scrutiny...

 

CGC isn't defining the grading guidelines for comics alone...the formula as I see it these days is:

 

(cert companies) + (Overstreet/Gemstone) + (dealers) + (collectors) = grading standard

 

Anybody can affect the standard...go write a book about yourself it if you think you can have a more positive impact on grading than CGC can with people reverse-engineering the grading standards behind their labels.

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ArAich

ArAich

Posted
Posted

Why are the same people who are here complaining loudest about the removal of the alpha grade also the ones who constantly post "Buy the book not the label"?

 

 

 

Um...Lighthouse...I have never...ever...not even once said..."Buy the book not the label." or espoused such a view.... tongue.gif

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lighthouse

lighthouse

Posted
Posted
Why are the same people who are here complaining loudest about the removal of the alpha grade also the ones who constantly post "Buy the book not the label"?

 

Um...Lighthouse...I have never...ever...not even once said..."Buy the book not the label." or espoused such a view.... tongue.gif

 

Well then it makes sense why you are upset, you "label-lover" you... tongue.gif

 

Although I would hardly call you one of the loudest here...

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blowout

blowout

Posted
Posted

Why are the same people who are here complaining loudest about the removal of the alpha grade also the ones who constantly post "Buy the book not the label"?

 

Because the book is in a slab. We cannot fully inspect the book inside the slab, so in order to buy the book we want we need the person who DID fully inspect the book to put AS MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT THE BOOK AS POSSIBLE ON THE LABEL. makepoint.gif

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
I just don’t see any clear advantage or disadvantage of having or not having the alpha grade on the label other then just personal preference.

 

It is the wedge opening the door another crack to a more sterile environment. It is playing to people who are so uninformed they perceive the minus sign as a negative trait.

 

So do you not perceive the minus sign as a negative trait. I thought that was what the minus sign meant? I think you can be very well informed and still not like the minus sign. Yes not liking it on the label is arbitrary but so is not liking the removal of the alpha grade or any other aesthetics of the label. What is wrong with a sterile label, isn't it there to provide information about the book in an unbiased way.

 

Please read this all the way through and if you can, ponder a bit on my points.

 

No. That is NOT what the minus sign means. The minus sign simply means that a, for example, NM- book is under NM and above VF/NM. It does NOT mean the book is somehow defective. The minus sign MUST be taken in context. And my point is that there are people who apparently cannot understand this simple concept.

 

Also, I am not talking about a sterile LABEL. I specified a "sterile environment", which is very different. It is why I used the "wedge opening the door another crack" analogy. CGC is in the process of furthering the rift, schism, dichotomy or whatever you want to call it between collectors and investors. I don't know for how long you have been collecting but you may remember the early investor/collector wars, when investors who knew absolutely nothing ABOUT and cared nothing FOR a comic book's content, artist, writer and place in comic history. They had one motive - pure profit.

 

The interesting thing I have discovered about the majority of CGC collectors here on these boards is that they DO care about a comic book's content, artist, writer and place in comic history. Yes, there is the difficult decision on occasion of "should I crack this and read it?" which always comes from someone who knows enough to realize that "Hey! This is probably a cool book. I really want to read it but this is my first copy!" (I STILL have not cracked my Mister Mystery 13 - still hoping for a nice Fine I can buy and then sell the CGC'd one). But then the CGC slab stands there and you know? I really DO appreciate that aspect because they probably paid more for the slabbed book and that IS a serious consideration. I have visions of these folk seeking reprints, cd's, microfiche etc. just to be able to read their CGC'd book. And I really appreciate that aspect, because I have been there too.

 

The fact that some people take offense at a minus sign, when it is simply a grade indicator and should be perceived as such, indicates a relatively new collector who either hasn't yet had the time or does not want to take the time to really understand what things mean.

 

I spent, without exaggeration, probably an average of 3 hours a day for well over 20 years studying a variety of texts, web sites, working with a restorer etc. to glean as much as I could about paper and comics. I feel I have "paid my dues" and I also feel that most folks here have similarly "paid there dues". They understand and appreciate the grades, and the alpha (VG, NM- etc) grades are old friends. And I will tell you, I am a good friend and if someone tries to off one of MY friends, well, I am not going to sit back and say "sweet!".

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blowout

blowout

Posted
Posted

CGC is in the process of furthering the rift, schism, dichotomy or whatever you want to call it between collectors and investors.

 

893applaud-thumb.gif

 

A fine, if rather long post Pov. But as you say, the debate here really is NOT only about the removal of the alpha grade. It is about about CGC gradually erroding the information it provides to the comic book collector, in favour of a easier to sell product for the comic book investor. frown.gif

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
CGC is in the process of furthering the rift, schism, dichotomy or whatever you want to call it between collectors and investors.

 

893applaud-thumb.gif

 

A fine, if rather long post Pov. But as you say, the debate here really is NOT only about the removal of the alpha grade. It is about about CGC gradually erroding the information it provides to the comic book collector, in favour of a easier to sell product for the comic book investor. frown.gif

 

Thanks Blowout. I know the post was longer than it may have been but in reality it is only a minute or two read. I guess that may be investor-unfriendly? grin.gif But this post ultimately encapsulates everything I have been trying to say in many other posts.

 

Ahh well - what to do? confused-smiley-013.gif

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BachelorOfComix

BachelorOfComix

Posted
Posted
Umm banner, apparently all the lunatics are calling Steve direct with their "concerns".

 

"CGC, Steve speaking"

 

"Hallow? Dis is Elroy. I dun butt me some of yer CGC becks, and ma friend Enus wuz spoutin off 'bout da big minus sign on da steeker. Weren't da moonshine talkin' neither and I'm mighteee riled at the guffawin' and da chuklin at dis "minused" ko-leck-teeee-bull'"

 

"Would BIG NUMBERS help and no more minuses?"

 

"Dang howdey it shurely wud. Youze city slickers done know yer stuff out der in Flor-eeeeee-duh."

 

- drops phone on dirt floor -

 

( I told's ya Enus!!)

 

laugh.gif Freaking hilarious! This is the CI/JC we all know & love. smily961.gif

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PovertyRow

PovertyRow

Posted
Posted
Freaking hilarious!

 

Yes. JC/CI gave me one of the VERY few chuckles I had today. Bad work day but it made me grin!

Turn that frown upside down.........

 

242990-bbepov.JPG

 

Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks BOC. A little "perspective" is alwys appreciated! grin.gif893applaud-thumb.gif

 

 

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
  • Author
Posted
How is it simplistic? If you don't want to buy a CGC slabbed 9.6 copy of X-Men 134, buy any number of the 50,000 NON slabbed copies from a reputable dealer you trust.

 

I know you're being obtuse on purpose. It would be the same as saying to those with MS issues to just "not buy it" when "you can get the same functionality with Linux". Or cable (which is zoned here) and if you don't like it, just trot out your old antenna and get 3 channels. Or up here with Bell and if we don't like a change in business plans, just switch to a cel phone from another provider.

 

Monopolies do what they want (CGC is still a monopoly for pre-75, hard-encased grading), and fanboys chime in with old "if you don't like it, don't buy it" strawman.

 

If you took that infantile view here in Canada, you would not have phone service, gas, electricity or cable TV. But of course, you're right, and would probably just love your new life of cave-dwelling.

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