No More Grades, Just BIG NUMBERS!

[joe_collector]

Alternatively, you can send your comics to your buddies over at CGG

 

I'll say this one more time: CGC has a total monopoly on pre-75, hard-encased graded books. 3PG won't go back before '75 and CGG uses some flimsy [!@#%^&^] that I could do myself with a Mylar.

 

Until a competitor offers a similar business model to CGC, they are a virtual monopoly. And this goes a bit further than others not filling the void, as the CGC design was setup to be a monopoly from the start, by gathering the largest dealers and media outlets (Wizard) of the comic's world into a monopolistic enclave.

[joe_collector]

A fine, if rather long post Pov. But as you say, the debate here really is NOT only about the removal of the alpha grade. It is about about CGC gradually erroding the information it provides to the comic book collector, in favour of a easier to sell product for the comic book investor.

 

That's exactly it, but the trend towards a virtually information-free label is something the CGC fans don't want to talk about. It's interesting to see the vast disinformation campaign being waged by a few noted forum members, who we are expected to believe have no financial stake in the matter.

[Lantern]

[drbanner]

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Everyone has to stand back and laugh at themselves sometimes... even you.

Sorry Vince but this is funny...

 

Vince using "nomenclature" not a "speculator pandering numeral-only" grade

 

...now please don't say since you were referring to CGC books, you were using their system. Firstly, you would never "knuckle-under" and even if that was remotely possible, you would have been sarcastic at minimum. Also, you indicated you'd never buy "Non-Alpha Grade Label" books... so you have to be looking for the older label books which have the nomenclature. UNLESS you were referring to "raw" books somehow... and that would be even funnier!

 

this is my JC roast

[joe_collector]

Everyone has to stand back and laugh at themselves sometimes... even you. Sorry Vince but this is funny...

 

I look at it like my cable service. It sucks butt, but since they've got me under the barrel with a zone-based monopoly, I grudgingly play ball.

 

I'm not about to toss my TVs out on the lawn, but I don't give them anymore money than I have to (Mr. Basic Cable here) and would be incredibly open to a new supplier who served my needs better.

 

Same with CGC. I'll buy the odd Byrne book (though older Blue Label is my overriding preference) but I won't be going out of my way to grade anymore books or buy any of the BIG NUMBER ones if I have the option of another Blue/Brown-labelled copy.

[drbanner]

I'll buy the odd Byrne book (though older Blue Label is my overriding preference) but I won't be going out of my way to grade anymore books or buy any of the BIG NUMBER ones if I have the option of another Blue/Brown-labelled copy.

 

I believe the joke in all this has nothing to do with whether or not you buy/don't buy CGC books, but the fact that you were looking for "9.4" copies, not "NM" or "9.4 NM" copies!

 

[BronzeBruce13]

I look at it like my cable service. It sucks butt, but since they've got me under the barrel with a zone-based monopoly, I grudgingly play ball.

 

I'm not about to toss my TVs out on the lawn, but I don't give them anymore money than I have to (Mr. Basic Cable here) and would be incredibly open to a new supplier who served my needs better.

 

Same with CGC. I'll buy the odd Byrne book (though older Blue Label is my overriding preference) but I won't be going out of my way to grade anymore books or buy any of the BIG NUMBER ones if I have the option of another Blue/Brown-labelled copy.

 

 

I figured (although you're not the type to grudgingly play ball) ... but not really the point here.

Unless you tell me differently (and I'll accept your word if so and not "tell you" what you were thinking or doing)... I assume that your use of "9.4" by itself was natural, and that there was not a conscious decision to bypass the "Alpha Grade"?

 

The point is... it does show that there is certainly merit to the argument that for those that primarily (discuss/buy/sell/collect) CGC books... the "Nomenclature" or "Alpha-Grade" is becoming secondary for the most part... and honestly, somewhat irrelevant in communicating the "professionally given" grade. I know it assists those in the mid/lower grades that prefer the terminology and don't have it all memorized as Joanna pointed out, but for the most part its not a necessity IMHO.

 

UNDERSTAND, again... all things equal, I'd keep it there for "tradition's sake" and because, as Pov eloquently pointed out... it is an "Old Friend" we are all accustomed to and enjoy seeing. The terminology IS a beloved and familiar part of comic history. No argument.

 

I just have a different take on all this. I ask you in advance to please refrain from the suggestion that this is not my personal view and one just made because I own CGC books an have a financial interest . That would be cheap and insulting.

 

I really don't see how CGC's decision to remove the nomenclature from their slabs is a "serious blow" or a "real threat" to their continued use. For many collectors who prefer to buy CGC books, the "Alpha-Grade" is less technical and not as clear as a "Numeral Grade". Many of us (including you) use the numerals almost exclusively and far more often when talking CGC books... even before the policy change. So, if we can forget the conspiracy rationale just for a moment (or "business moves to stay successful" as Lantern pointed out) consider this...

 

The "Alpha-Grade" terminology is NOT being phased out of the comic collecting community, nor is it seriously threatened in my view. The terms ARE, and WILL be used regularly by those that prefer to use them (Overstreet for one)... and by those that collect the vast majority of comics available or for sale... ungraded comics... right?

 

I enjoyed Pov's post the most on why he wanted the "Alpha Grade" to remain. It struck home and cut to the chase for me. Using his analogy of the nomenclature being an "old friend" I'd say this... Our "old friend" is NOT going away or dying a slow death, nor is his place in comics (now or in the future) threatened if people want him around. He'll always have a big house or a place to stay... as fans, non- CGC collectors (even some CGC collectors as well), "old-schoolers", etc. ... far outnumber the CGC collectors that have little use for him. They clearly rule the day and are not being forced to conform. What has changed for our "old friend" is this... a certain very small group (in comparison to the whole comic family) has passed him by and although not disliking him, just don't need what he has to offer very much. The progression of time often brings some change. Our "old friend" is more than welcome just about anywhere else. I, a HG CGC collector, STILL welcome my "old friend"... mostly in discussions involving raw books.... and probably always will. CGC's decision will not alter my behavior now or going forward in that regard.

 

I have no agenda here, this is just what I notice about the use of terminology... when I work with someone with raw books (and I do read, buy and sell them too), their language and mine when referring to grade is almost always the "Alpha-Grade". It just seems appropriate. However, when I talk CGC books, I find myself and everyone else talking "Numeral Grade"... before all this started. Slabbed book grading and many of those that collect them gravitate towards the more technical sounding numerals.

 

So.. digest that (without bringing in all the other projected reasoning for the change into it)... just for a moment. Then rip away if you like.

 

I had a chance to talk to Steve yesterday about this topic and also the the Overstreet vs CGC grading standard (since no one else will ever call to "try" and get a better understanding) and will relay how that conversation went by this weekend. Some things made sense to me, I disagreed with others, but I'll be able to offer at least little more insight I hope.

 

[Darthdiesel]

There is no dealer alive who can get CGC 9.6 prices for raw "Near Mint Plus" books.

 

Don't ever under-estimate the power of Comic-keys...

[BronzeBruce13]

... I'll buy the odd Byrne book (though older Blue Label is my overriding preference) but I won't be going out of my way to grade anymore books or buy any of the BIG NUMBER ones if I have the option of another Blue/Brown-labelled copy.

 

BTW... that may prove to be a poor strategy Vince and a half-way protest. Firstly, If you are buying the book and not the label, it seems counter-productive to pass over a book that meets your collecting preferences/requirements over the label content/design.

 

Secondly, the logic seems convoluted to me... if you are making a firm protest/stand over the Big Number books as you describe, then buying/owning any CGC book (regardless of label) is still offering support to CGC and the overall process as far as I can see. Its something, but not all the way. My impression of you is that you are more of the "All or Nothing" type that's very firm in his positions. To me, that level of protest is similar to not buying a tuna product that is not dolphin-friendly, but still buying/eating other products offered by the parent company.

 

If this make sense to you ... you might have to sell all your CGC books if you really want to make a total stand. If you indeed go in that direction please give me prices on X-men 108, 109, 112, 120, 121 and 140 if they are at least CGC 9.4 (NM). i trust your grading and expect I'll be getting excellent examples that may be resub candidates

 

...

[joe_collector]

Secondly, the logic seems convoluted to me... if you are making a firm protest/stand over the Big Number books as you describe, then buying/owning any CGC book (regardless of label) is still offering support to CGC and the overall process as far as I can see.

 

I don't see it that way. CGC received their revenue when the book was graded, thereby I am supporting books from a period where the label information was rational. CGC stands to gain nothing from my purchases, other than supplying speculators with even more erroneous "hot investment data".

 

I just do not want to put my money into the "new label" machine unless I really have no choice (super copy, tough to get, etc.). If there's a choice (as there is with my Byrne books) then I'll take the "sunk cost" one anyday.

[joe_collector]

I believe the joke in all this has nothing to do with whether or not you buy/don't buy CGC books, but the fact that you were looking for "9.4" copies, not "NM" or "9.4 NM" copies!

 

Answered that in the other thread Mr Genius.

[garthgantu]

Why are the same people who are here complaining loudest about the removal of the alpha grade also the ones who constantly post "Buy the book not the label"?

 

 

The phrase "Buy the book not the label" is an aphorism...an adage. It's not necessarily meant to be taken literally, though in this case some might mean it that way. Do you think people who've used the statement "Buy the book not the label" are advocating that you remove the label from your slab, or remove the book from the slab, necessarily? I've never taken it to mean that, no do I believe have most other people.

[garthgantu]

Alternatively, you can send your comics to your buddies over at CGG

 

I'll say this one more time: CGC has a total monopoly on pre-75, hard-encased graded books. 3PG won't go back before '75 and CGG uses some flimsy [!@#%^&^] that I could do myself with a Mylar.

 

Until a competitor offers a similar business model to CGC, they are a virtual monopoly. And this goes a bit further than others not filling the void, as the CGC design was setup to be a monopoly from the start, by gathering the largest dealers and media outlets (Wizard) of the comic's world into a monopolistic enclave.

 

In the past, I've expounded on the negative implications of additional competition in the comic book slabbing/grading market, because I felt it would cause confusion and possibly worse, as seen in the graded/slabbed sportscard market.

 

I've changed my mind based on the post quoted here; the more competition the better, and the sooner the better. CGC would not be making changes like the deletion of the alpha grade in such an offhand way if they actually felt some competitive pressure.

[BronzeBruce13]

Secondly, the logic seems convoluted to me... if you are making a firm protest/stand over the Big Number books as you describe, then buying/owning any CGC book (regardless of label) is still offering support to CGC and the overall process as far as I can see.

 

I don't see it that way. CGC received their revenue when the book was graded, thereby I am supporting books from a period where the label information was rational. CGC stands to gain nothing from my purchases, other than supplying speculators with even more erroneous "hot investment data".

 

I just do not want to put my money into the "new label" machine unless I really have no choice (super copy, tough to get, etc.). If there's a choice (as there is with my Byrne books) then I'll take the "sunk cost" one anyday.

 

 

Hmmm... OK, but I think for your usually excellent grasp of these type concepts you may be missing something. If you buy an old label book... you are still supporting the process in my view. Even if you try to compartmentalize the purchase and rationalize that you have not put any money in CGC's pocket you really may have.

 

example 1: You buy a older slab book from a Dealer, you put money in his pocket which allows him to invest MORE money into NEW CGC submissions. Thereby keeping the process moving... the dealer is submitting... CGC is earning more grading fees.. another Newly graded book eneters the marketplace. Didn't you just support CGC indirectly?

 

example 2: You buy a older slab book from a Collector, you put money in his pocket which allows him to buy MORE CGC books.. possibly New ones. >or< he puts that money into NEW CGC submissions. Thereby keeping the process moving... collector is submitting... CGC is earning more grading fees.. another Newly graded book eneters the marketplace or collection. Didn't you just support CGC indirectly?

 

 

[Shield]

The only problem with "Buy the label and not the slab" is many dealers of multiple CGC books don't offer a super-high res scan (ala Heritage) for us to view and make that call. Plus, I've read the "All sales final on CGC graded books" a zillion times.

 

I generally trust that CGC has graded accurately about 98 percent of the time, which is why I don't hesitate to purchase them. We're all allowed to have our own views of what should and shouldn't be allowed in very high grades! But so is CGC. Feel free to start your own grading company and set your own standards! CGC isn't the final word on anything; just a company that grades books right now. They have done a pretty damn good job so far in most circumstances, IMHO.

[joe_collector]

Hmmm... OK, but I think for your usually excellent grasp of these type concepts you may be missing something.

 

Nope, but I think you are. A person can only control his/her own expenditures and funnel cash into the areas they see fit. After that, what the recipient does with the money is open. It could go for food, lodging, prostitutes (cough *Darth* cough) or just about anything, up to and including those reprehensible BIG NUMBER CGC books.

 

It's also the same in the real world. For example, I'm going to buy a new LCD in a few weeks; should I grill the owner to see where my cash is going? Is he buying BIG NUMBERS CGC comics? Using the money for Pros? Peelers? Drugs?

 

Who knows and who cares. The guy runs a super PC shop that carries high-end products I like, and that's as far as my "consumer vote" can take me.

[Shield]

 

example 1: You buy a older slab book from a Dealer, you put money in his pocket which allows him to invest MORE money into NEW CGC submissions. Thereby keeping the process moving... the dealer is submitting... CGC is earning more grading fees.. another Newly graded book eneters the marketplace. Didn't you just support CGC indirectly?

 

example 2: You buy a older slab book from a Collector, you put money in his pocket which allows him to buy MORE CGC books.. possibly New ones. >or< he puts that money into NEW CGC submissions. Thereby keeping the process moving... collector is submitting... CGC is earning more grading fees.. another Newly graded book eneters the marketplace or collection. Didn't you just support CGC indirectly?

 

 

 

No offense, but this sounds like a simplistic approach that assumes all dealers/collectors only use monies from books they've sold to finance/purchase new ones. So, given that theory, if the dealor or collector sells a watch on EBAY, I shouldn't buy it either because theoretically he could use those funds to purchase more CGC graded material?

[garthgantu]

Yes, and using BronzeBruce's logic, you must also regurgitate any "non dolphin-friendly" tuna you've eaten in your life, and move out of your apartment or home if the construction company who built it has been discovered to have fleeced the public via a low-income housing scam they just pulled. Oh, and the nikes in your closet from 1994? Those have gotta go, 'cause Nike's been using child labor since '97...

 

BTW, you'd better return your 1998 SUV and the '99 Firestones it rolled in on while you're at it...

[drbanner]

I believe the joke in all this has nothing to do with whether or not you buy/don't buy CGC books, but the fact that you were looking for "9.4" copies, not "NM" or "9.4 NM" copies!

 

Answered that in the other thread Mr Genius.

 

If you say so...