sfcityduck

Don't get me wrong. I think they are fantastic writers who make the most of what they've got. Again, I highly recommend their site. I'm not sure the bar has been set all that high on the Okajima story though. The best telling of that story so far has probably been in posts on this site. I would be surprised if they did not have new information. I'm curious to see what it will be. I'm just not optimistic that will be soon as the delay has been so long and I know they have been focused on other events very important to internment activists.

You make a good point about history being about ordinary people too. The best way I've learned that history is from talking to my parents and grandparents and other relatives about our own family history and looking at the old photos and items that have been saved over the years (including, great for me, my Dad's collection of 40s and 50s comics he gave me when I started collecting in the late 70s). But, some stories do stand out. And the story of Bob and Roger Dumas is unique and remarkable.

As a collector of art by arguably the most important Japanese-American artist, Chiura Obata, including internment camp art, I have a different perspective on that due to my interest in that area. 50 Objects is a really great site. It is devoted to illustrating the injustice of the internment during WWII, and I have enjoyed and highly recommend the site. However, the site is run by activists. And as far as I can tell, the delay in the publishing of the Okajima story appears to be because they have been focusing their attention, as activists, on a controversy that erupted over the Topaz Internment Camp national monument site which is extremely important to them. I have been looking forward to reading their Okajima piece, but it's been "coming soon" for many months. I suspect the delay is not due to a furious researching of that story, but the other things they are involved in.

Again I have to disagree. Comic collecting really began as soon as comic books started being published. Collecting WAS a "thing" back then - for a variety of things such as coins, books, etc. It was inevitable that once comics started being published there would be people who would save comics for a motivation other than OCD hoarding, and that's largely what happened.. The interesting question is what motivated their collecting? And did they ever go beyond that collecting into the realm of becoming actual fans? That's a topic I addressed in this thread you might enjoy, if you haven't seen it: Dave Wigransky, the subject of the above thread, collected comics because he had the exact same passion for comic art and history and entertainment that we modern collectors do. Edgar Church and the compiler of the Cosmic Aeroplane pedigree collected comics because they used them as art references. Gaines and Crowley put aside comics to have a record of their work. Multiple pedigrees were likely compiled by speculators, who set aside the number 1 issues of publications in the hope that they would someday be valuable (e.g. Windy City). I could go on. But while I truly do agree that I find the history of some pedigrees as depressing as you do (they add no value to me), that is definitely NOT the case with a pedigree like Okajima! The Okajima pedigree is both (1) a symbol of a very sad chapter in our history when American citizens like that OO were evicted from their homes, forced into internment camps with only the possessions they could carry, and forced to endure harsh conditions for years and (2) powerful evidence that the American citizens who were the victims of that conduct were just like you and me, Americans who loved comic books so much that they chose to cherish and preserve them throughout a very trying time in their lives. Which is why lesser graded Okajima's still sell for multiples over equivalent and better graded copies. The stories do matter. Heritage knows it, CGC knows it, and when they tell them I think they should feel obliged to make sure the proper story is getting out to the comic collecting community.

Frankly, I have to disagree. To me, pedigrees fall into the following categories: (1) Collections for which there are absolutely no real backstory at all, other than that the collection is a really nice collection of OO comics that made its way to a dealer (e.g. Central Valley).. (2) Collections for which there is an unimportant backstory, just information on where the comics came from (e.g. Billy Wright) but nothing particularly special about that backstory. (3) Collections for which the backstory of the collection is not as important as the impact of the collection to comic history (e.g. Mile High, Cosmic Aeroplane). (4) Collections with an important association to the comic industry or with someone famous in comic circles which adds value and interest to the collection (e.g. Gaines, Thompson, Rosa, Crowley). (5) Collections which have a backstory that touches important American history and which, as a result, have value added which derives from the comic collecting communities' passion for history (and obviously nostalgia) resulting in multiplied values for comics even in lesser grades because of that story. For this last category of pedigree, as Heritage and CGC are well aware, it is the story which makes the pedigree. The classic example is Okajima. And the Promise Collection is being marketed as a new Okajima quality pedigree. So I think that Heritage and CGC do have a responsibility to get the story right. On the Youtube interview aired on Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 in July 2021, the consignment director of Heritage and the President of CGC said this about the Promise Collection while being interviewed by Deno the host::

As a customer of Heritage and CGC whose has purchased a raw Promise book that will soon be winging its way to be encapsulated, I figure they might feel a greater obligation to say something than the family does. After all, they are the ones telling the story used to market the books and certify it as a pedigree to collectors like me. If I were a reporter, the course of action you recommend would make perfect sense. But, I'm just a collector posting on a message board (which I know Heritage and CGC reps read) for a small audience of his fellow interested collectors. This isn't my vocation, its just my hobby. But, maybe you have a point that someone will need to reach out to the family if Heritage and CGC don't want to address it.

The story of Bob and Roger Dumas is important, but little known, history. The story is a very important part of the broader history of the Korean War and treatment of UN POWs. Their story would make comics they owned more significant, not vice versa. Which is why the question of whether there is a linkage between them and the comics deserves to be answered. But, even if there is not a linkage, the story of Bob and Roger is worth knowing.

One of the hard things about this topic is that Heritage's own marketing story is also full of ambiguities which make it very difficult to confirm. As for the contrasts between information being provided by Heritage, and what I could find about Bob and Roger, there are also some striking similarities and stark inconsistencies. Here's a chart made as part of my own notes which illustrates some of the similarities and disconnects: FACTUAL DETAIL HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN THE INTELLIGENT COLLECTOR JUNE 2021 HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN HERITAGE’S BLEEDING COOL SPONSORED POSTS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELAYED BY HERITAGE REPRESENTATIVES IN INTERVIEWS THE STORY OF ROBERT (“BOB”) AND ROGER ARMAND DUMAS Older brother’s name: “known as Robert” Same. N/A Robert R. Dumas, but goes by “Bob.” Older brother’s birth year and date of death: No info. No. info. Brian Weidman stated on Tales from the Flipside May 13, 2021: “he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.” Weidman also stated he passed away “last year or so.” Bob Dumas was born in 1930 and died at the age of 90 on February 6, 2021. Younger brother Original Owner’s (“OO’s”) Name: “known as Junie” Same. N/A Roger Armand Dumas (not a “Jr.,” just the youngest, or most junior, member of his family – unknown if anyone called him “Junie”). Younger Brother birth year and date of death: “Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.” 12/23/2021 Heritage sponsored post states: “The young fan who started collecting comic books at the age of eight years old in 1939.” E.g., Under the Heritage marketing story he was born in 1931 and died in 1952 (per info to left). N/A Roger was born in 1931. Roger was declared MIA in 1950. Roger was a confirmed POW in 1953. Roger was deemed dead (no proof of actual death) in 1954. Roger may well have lived to 1957 and beyond. Older brother’s reason for military service: “In the early 1950s, a young man known as Robert was drafted by the Army to fight in Korea.” Same. N/A A credible local media report from the mid-1980s states that Bob "joined the Army" on a date after Roger entered military service. Younger brother’s reason for military service: “enlisted in the hopes of keeping watch over Robert” Same. N/A The above referenced local media report relays that Roger volunteered to join the Army before he turned 18 (he turned 18 in July 1949), also stating: "The six Dumas boys and their sister grew up in Plainfield, where the family lived in duplex housing owned by Lawton Mills, which had employed both parents since their immigration from Canada many years before. The youngest two; Robert and Roger, were especially close. 'We did everything together,' reminisces Bob Dumas, who was born 14 months before Roger. 'I was his protector. If he wasn't in the house by 6 o'clock, I had to go find him.' But when Roger and a boyhood buddy joined the Army, Bob decided to stay home for a while longer. Her sons told Mrs. Dumas not to worry about Roger. After all, the United States was not at war. And what the press called 'the Cold War' seemed too remote and abstract to worry about." In short, the Heritage story is a flipped ---script from the facts of the story of Roger and Bob. Instead of the older brother taking care of the younger, as in the story of Roger and Bob, the Heritage marketing story has the younger taking care of the older. The Promise: “Junie had but one request of his big brother – that Robert take care of his collection of funny books should anything happen to him in battle. Junie had been a collector since he was a little boy, not because of the value but because of the stories. Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves. Robert knew how dear those books were to his brother. So he promised him: Yes, of course. He would take care of those funny books. If something happened. God forbid.” Same. N/A Unverified as to Bob and Roger. No public mention is made of comic books by Bob in any of the public comments, media report, or documentaries reviewed by this author. Instead, the well-known promise made by Bob Dumas was to his mother (twice – in 1950 and 1959) and father, and it was to never stop searching for his brother Roger so he could be brought home. . Duration of the collection “Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves.” Initially the same, but 12/23/2021 sponsored post states: “The Promise Collection is a set of nearly 5,000 comic books, 95% of which are blisteringly high grade, that were published from 1939 to 1952 and purchased by one young comic book fan.” Also, the same sponsored post states: “1950 represents a significant reduction in the monthly volume being purchased by Junie for his collection. There are over 500 issues in the Promise Collection from that year, down from over 900 issues in 1949. As Junie hit about 21 years old in 1951, the volume further drops to about 100 comics for the entire year.” N/A I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books. (Heritage has not yet sold any Promise collection comics cover dated 1952. Based on a review of DC comics, I did not find any with an on-sale date after December 1950.) Younger brother OO’s Death: No info. “Then Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.” N/A Roger Armand Dumas was not killed in action (“KIA”). He was initially declared MIA on November 4, 1950, when he was only 19 years old. Later it was established he was captured. Storage of the collection: “When Robert returned home from war, he made good on that promise. With great care and caution, he boxed up his brother’s comic books and placed them in an attic for safe storage. And there they sat, undisturbed, for half a century. In time, Robert and his family returned to those boxes to revisit what Junie had left behind. … They went a step further in protecting them, bagging and boarding each one, then cataloging them on an ever-growing spreadsheet that now reads now like a collector’s dream come true.” Note: “half a century” means they sat undisturbed until 2000. Same. “Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book and stored them in long boxes.” Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021). “twenty years earlier” meant 20 years before Heritage was contacted, e.g. around 2001. I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books. But it was not germane to Bob's focus in his media interviews. (As discussed in prior posts, I have found a potential explanation for why, if the Promise Collection brother are Bob and Roger, the books would have been properly stored 20 years ago.) Older brother's death: No info. In the “last year or so” – Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021). Bob Dumas died February 6, 2021.

I really appreciate this comment. I conducted this research during my spare time, enjoying what I was learning, spread over many months. I did not float this story just based on some quick Google hit. I dug deeper by trying to find a direct connection between the Dumas brothers and comic books, and then I looked for an indirect connection based on the evidence of the comics themselves. I looked for clues in the books sold, researched the "Armand" books, the on-sale dates of those books. the on-sale dates of the last books to enter the collection, delved deeply into the story of the Dumas brothers told in the media reports and government records and documentaries and other sources, and ultimately I found some plausible linkages between the Dumas brothers' story and the Promise Collection (relayed in prior posts). Enough that I felt the theory deserved to be floated. However, at the outset of this thread I said: My assumption was that Heritage (or CGC which certified the pedigree and endorsed the story told by Heritage) would quickly advise me if my theory was incorrect. To date that has not happened. Still, I want to caution everyone that silence does not necessarily equate to an endorsement. Heritage and CGC may feel it unnecessary to correct a post on a low profile message board. They may feel their own interests are better served by not confirming or denying. So I do want to re-emphasize, my theory could be wrong even if Heritage and CGC never come out and say that. One reason I floated the theory is to gain the benefit of the observations and efforts of the many collectors who also value history, accuracy, and want to know the full backstory on the Promise Collection. Which is why I'm so grateful for MasterChief's posting of the Batman 3 and the Action 141 which contain markings that I had not previously considered. One may support the theory, one may not - but we can't tell yet. MasterChief just posted testimony by Bob Dumas. I agree with this comment in his post: I agree with that. The story of Bob and Roger is mesmorizing and important. Watching the videos and reading the media reports that have come out the past 40 years are educational and entertaining. However, I want to share a couple of observations that I learned from growing up with two reporters for parents and a long legal career in which I've examined more witnesses than I count under oath: No one's recollection is perfect; It is very hard to recall events from a few years, let alone a few decades, earlier; and People, whether under oath or in response to media questions, tend misspeak every once in a while - getting dates wrong, making small (and sometimes large) inconsistences when they tell stories at different times, etc. Bob Dumas was not immune from that. As you dig deep into the many many tellings of his and Roger's story, you will find some inconsistencies. To me, this is perfectly normal. The product of many things - a failure of recollection that day, the stress of the situation, etc. Listeners, including reporters and family members, also make mistakes. This is also perfectly normal. To give one immaterial example, Bob's obituary (of a type usually drafted with input or info from a family member) mistakenly states that Bob came from a family of 14 siblings, not the 7 revealed in numerous media reports over the years and the census reports for 1930 and 1940. So mistakes can be made. The point being, if you start watching the videos of Bob, reading the articles, don't be surprised when you start seeing ambiguities. They definitely exist. And perhaps one reason that Heritage (and CGC) aren't weighing in is that they are trying to work their way through some of these ambiguities.

For me, they are on the Mt. for comic strip artists: Winsor McCay (do I really need to explain why?) Hal Foster (better than Frazetta, Wood, and all his other imitators - which only a few could actually come close to doing) Alex Raymond (better than Moldoff and all his many imitators in his first X-9/Flash/Jungle Jim style and then he changed up his style for Rip Kirby and influenced a whole new group of artists) Charles Schulz (barely over Bill Watterson because he paved the way, 50 year run, and Watterson acknowledges his debt to Schulz) Honorable Mention: Noel Sickles/Milt Caniff (only Toth and eventually Wildey in comic books came close to mastering the style Sickles & Caniff pioneered)

A really defensible list. Mine is only a little different: Will Eisner (do I really need to explain why?) Carl Barks (his art was so good that he was called the "good Duck artist" for drawing stories within the constraints of the Disney style because even so they stood head and shoulders above all others) Bill Everett (hugely important and long career in which he mastered both covers and interiors - something his contemporary Schomburg didn't really do - and evolved his always appealing style to fashion both some of the greatest early GA covers and some of the greatest PCH covers of the 1950s, without ever looking cartoony) Harvey Kurtzman (over Bernie Krigstein) (like Krigstein he revolutionized the way in which comic stories were told, and the art styles that could be used to tackle the most mature subjects). Honorable mentions: Shuster (way underrated) and Baker (revolutionized mature romance art and storytelling).

I'll be there opening night! Best trailer I've seen in a long time!

Again you have sharper eyes than me! I didn't see that book either. Very impressive! That Action 141 clearly says "STANGE." Stange is a last name. A quick search reveals there were some Stange families in the area where the Dumas family lived. I have no reason to think they had any tie to the Dumas family. So this might cut against my theory. The way that name is written really puzzles me. All of the "Armands" written on Promise Collection books are done in cursive (often a messy cursive). Cursive was taught early, especially for signatures. So I'm a bit surprised to see a very neat and well-written, almost stylized (like an architect's writing), all caps block print name. It seems like a mature hand, but it is not only printed -- it is all caps block printed. Just seems weird. It's also written with what I think is a heavier hand than the "Armand" cursive words. I can't explain that one. If I were a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I'd note that book was sold a week or so ago, and wonder if the signature was added recently to throw people off from the "Armand" names. But, I definitely am not a conspiracy theorist! That was not a serious suggestion! My best guess is that maybe the OO had a friend with the last name Stange. It is a complete mystery to me. I can't explain it. Again, if I'm leading people astray, I hope Heritage tells me.

Wow! I am super impressed. You have surprised me by finding something I didn't notice! I agree the inscription on the Batman 3 says "This belongs to Jean[ ]." Where I put the brackets there are either missing letters and/or letter fragments (maybe over aggressive cleaning?). I think the last word "Jean" could read as "Jeanette" with the fragment being the letter "t"s or the fragment could be part of a cursive capital "D" and it reads "Jean D." However, I might be deceiving myself because Bob (born 1930) and Roger (born 1931) were the youngest of seven siblings. They'd have been just 9 or 10 when that comic came out. On the other hand, their next closest sibling, their sister, was born in 1925 and would have been 15 when that comic came out. Her name was Theresa Jeanette Dumas. E.g., maybe a "Jeanette" or "Jean D." Thank you so much for sharing this! Great spotting!

Extremely remote. Roger would be 90 now, and its been 64 years since that sighting. I'd also think that if any POW was still alive, President Trump would have brought them home from his visit to North Korea, instead of just human remains. The Dumas family had six brothers (Bob and Roger the two youngest about 16 months apart) and one sister. At least four brothers (maybe even five - the media reports can be ambiguous and I have not yet found all the military records) were in Korea at the same time. I have seen a group photograph of Bob and some of his brothers together in Korea - may be in a documentary.

Here's a good news article from 1992 on Bob and Roger Dumas for those interested:

Bob, you make a really apt comparison. The Okajima pedigree has opened the eyes of comic collectors to the little known history of the Japanese internment. The Promise Collection could open the eyes of comic collectors to the little known history of Korean War MIA/POWs if Bob and Roger are the Promise Collection brothers. That's important history that should be shared. That history is everything in the story of Bob and Roger Dumas. If the Promise Collection is tied to Bob and Roger, it is a story worth telling.

The hypothetical you put forth would make a great law school final exam! The analysis required to answer your question would be very very complex - potentially turning on, at least, wills & trusts law, intestate succession statutes, gift law, laws relating to abandoning American citizenship, the Hague Convention, and even laws regarding sedition and treason and national security. But its just a hypothetical, so no need to attempt to resolve it here. However, I do like your hypothetical because it touches on the truth that there are documented cases of U.S. Soldiers who defected to North Korea and voluntarily lived there for decades - until they died. No reason that I know of to believe Roger was one of them. The presence of those defectors in North Korea complicated the search for evidence of U.S. POWs. The U.S. government argued at times that all claimed sightings of U.S. POWs still alive and held in North Korea were really just sightings of known defectors. Fascinating subject. Like an onion, lots of layers to peel back in the history surrounding of U.S. POWs in North Korea.

Just saw your post. I appreciate that you find my "research and resulting assumptions are very intriguing." No irony intended. I honestly take that as praise. I'd rather see this thread focus on that research and on the incredible history of the Dumas brothers (unless it turns out I'm wrong) then the tabloid material that some posters want to now debate. To that end, let me clarify: All I desire is for Heritage to advise me if the Dumas brothers are NOT the brothers who compiled and preserved the Promise Collection. Nothing would prevent them from doing so, and there are many good reasons why they should do that.

Fascinating! There's a WWII tank in the town square where the Dumas brothers grew up. Bob recalled in one media piece I reviewed that he remembered Roger playing soldier on that tank after school. I think he referenced Roger's desire to become a soldier. So maybe you're right and that is how Roger thought of himself at the time "Armand" was written on the comics. Assuming, of course, my speculation that the Dumas brothers are responsible for the Promise Collection is correct.

I suspect that is the case, but who knows? My only concrete thought on the family getting money is this: If the Promise Collection was assembled by Roger, I can't help feeling that he'd be pleased that Bob's preservation of those comics ultimately benefitted the family. It's a tangible family legacy that I'm sure would have made Roger and Bob proud. Bob's broader and more public legacy of elevating the profile of Korean War POW/MIA issues is Bob's much more important public legacy. But, while Bob's work undoubtedly benefitted POW/MIA activism for subsequent wars, it is sad to say that in all likelihood the last of the Korean War POW/MIAs are probably dead (they would be in their 90s now - a highly unlikely life expectancy for someone in their circumstances). Bob kept the faith until his death, and as a result his family is rewarded with a tangible economic legacy - something I think any family patriarch would appreciate. To me that is Karma working at its finest. An epic good deed is being rewarded. I can't fault the family for concluding that selling the comics was appropriate at this time.

One last bit of information to share until tomorrow evening. As far as I can tell from reviewing DC comics cover dated 1951 in the Promise Collection, the latest on-sale date for any comic in the collection is December 1950. This fits neatly with the fact that Roger was deemed to have gone MIA as of November 4, 1950. I have reviewed telegram notifications to families that their soldier-sons were deemed MIA for later in the Korean War, and those notices were around 30 days after the date the soldier was deemed MIA. I suspect that because Roger went MIA during a major Chinese offensive that caused the UN forces to retreat, extra delay occurred because it took time for his battalion to reach safety, account for which soldiers were MIA and which were confirmed killed in action, to report up the chain command, to get the info to D.C., and for the telegrams to be sent. It was a high intensity period. So it is plausible that the family would have received Roger's MIA notification later in December 1950 than a mere 30 days after Roger's deemed MIA date. My assumption is that if Roger is "Junie" someone on the home front was buying comics to save for him from the time he shipped overseas until the time he was declared MIA. It could even have been Bob, who only volunteered to go to the front line of Korea after he'd learned Roger was MIA and made his promise to his parents, but maybe more likely was Roger's parents. Whatever the case, Roger's MIA date is plausibly in line with the end date of the Promise Collection. Either the parents stopped buying the comics because he'd been declared MIA or Bob stopped buying them because he'd volunteered to go to the front lines. But, again, this is speculation and I could be wrong. It would be great to know if that is the case. It would also be great to fill in the holes and mysteries in the Promise Collection story.

I believe that it is Heritage's role to admit or deny when it is Heritage who have marketed the book. I don't know who the "consignor" is and it may not even be the family. I have no contact information for any of the family members anyway. My only attempt to contact someone for info concerned general background on the Korean War POWs (and it didn't work anyway). I've conducted an armchair investigation. This message board is read by a small amount of people. A post here will be unnoticed by the broader world if I'm wrong. No need for me to "bother" anyone with my speculation when Heritage can set me straight so easily if I'm wrong, and I can then withdraw that speculation. My concerns about this story are just as I relate: The full story of the Promise Collection should be presented to the comic collecting community, not kept only within the purview of Heritage and presumably CGC, if it is of historic significance. That is why I've shared my theory instead of seeking a confidential answer from Heritage. If I were to sell a Promise Book I bought, I'd be pretty upset if I later learned that Heritage had withheld a story that might have put the collection in a different historical light and made me decide to keep it. Not sure why Heritage should be able to have it both ways - float a story to sell the comics, and be able to hide behind a cloak of anonymity when attempts to verify the story are made. They should just come clean, at least enough to flatly deny that the Dumas brothers are the Promise Collection brothers if that is in fact truthfully the case. If that is the case, with no "bother" to anyone but the tens of people who have wasted time reading this thread, my speculation will evaporate into the dustbin of the old threads. People who have read my threads on subjects like Dave Wigransky, the Four Immigrants Graphic Novel, the Nightingale comic, and other subjects should know that I am drawn to write on largely unknown comic history. I collect not just comics, but knowledge about comics. Which I believe should be shared.

Roger is not named after his father Joseph. So he is not a "Jr." But, he was the junior member of his family of seven siblings. And Heritage has been a bit ambiguous about the whole "Junie" thing, stating he was a "younger brother, known as Junie," as Heritage doesn't explain "to who?" and "why?". Frankly, as I said up above, I can't reconcile all the facts told by Heritage with the Bob and Roger story. So if I'm right, Heritage will have some explaining to do (but it is my opinion that Heritage may have engaged in a bit of fudging ala the old tv show Dragnet for which I can't fault them much and which certainly didn't cause any economic harm to anyone) and if I'm wrong that's a possibility that I've repeatedly admitted could be the case. If I'm wrong that the Promise Collection is tied to the Dumas brothers, I would appreciate it if Heritage would flatly say so. Then, problem solved as I'll withdraw the speculation on this thread.

Other OOs have received millions from Heritage sales. For example, Heritage touted sale of the Billy Wright Collection, which it acknowledged was consigned by his nephew, as one of the most valuable collections ever sold back in 2012. I don't doubt that Heritage is not concerned that its consignors will face problems if revealed given they've sold collections by named collectors and original owners. And I'm with the President of CGC with regard to the specific collection before us: