sfcityduck

Bailey Co's Dept. Store is in Cleveland. I considered that book as it could be a problem for my theory as the Dumas family is NOT in Cleveland. But, that issue is a Christmas issue that came out during WWII. And in WWII, people were moving around for jobs, and Cleveland had wartime industry. Could have been a gift from a relative or friend of the family. Roger and Bob had significantly older siblings. But, of course I could be wrong. That is a possibility I admit. I've been told that the distributor markings on the comics are consistent with other books known to come from Connecticut. I don't give that any weight because I can't confirm it. Maybe others can.

But not in any way that has cost buyers any money. If anything, if I'm right, the desirability of these comics should increase.

I believe that the original function of the pedigree concept was just a pre-internet way of giving the buyer comfort that the quality of the book was as represented. The original notion that led to "pedigree" becoming a "thing" was that if a collector had seen some Mile HIgh books or knew others who had, the collector would have an idea as to what the quality of other Mile High books might be. It was a convenient reference and source of comfort if you were buying through the mail. But over time that has changed, especially since CGC has removed most of the guess work from grading and PQ. And because new "pedigrees" are being sold by Heritage before anyone in the comic community has even seen the books, they don't have a reputation for quality yet, haven't been deemed a pedigree by a consensus of collectors, and buyers won't get any comfort from those with prior experience with the ped. Consequently, I'm not sure that there is any value to a pedigree designation in the internet and CGC age other than for tying a book to its back story. BUT many collectors have taken an interest in more than just the quality of the books and I believe the back story has become a legitimate justification for a grading company to slap some sort of label on a comic that ties a comic to its provenance. I just don't think the grading companies should be ones who should get to decide that some provenance's matter and others don't.

Here's another interesting thing about the "Armand" books in the Promise Collection. The collection spans around 120 months (10 years), but it appears that just books with on-sale dates in a mere 3 month span, from June to August 1949, have the the name "Armand" on them. I base this on a review of 25 DC comics with the "Armand" name on them. The on-sale date of DC golden age comics are fairly well established, and all of the "Armand" DC comics fall within that three month date span according to the Grand Comic Database. So what's so important about that 3 month span that the name "Armand" would be put on those comics, but not any other months? Heritage's story gives no hints. But the story of Bob and Roger might. Bob once stated that Roger enlisted in the military before he turned 18. To do so, Bob recalls that Roger needed his mother's signature. Roger Dumas was born on July 21, 1931. He would have turned 18 on July 21, 1949. He likely would have completed High School at the end of May of 1949. Consequently, it may well be that Roger enlisted at the end of May. If Roger is "Junie," Roger would have been in basic training for June through August (in 1949, basic training lasted 14 weeks) - the same time period in which the "Armand" name appears on the comics. This is speculation as I have not yet found Roger's enlistment records (Roger's military records may have been burned up in a fire). Why would "Armand" appear on comics during the period Roger was in basic? I can think of two possibilities: (1) someone else, probably his mother, was buying him the comics and putting his name on them (assuming his mother called him Armand) to keep them away from his siblings or (2) Roger felt the need to label his comics to keep them secure while he was in basic, and used Armand because it was more unique than Roger or Dumas (both pretty common in the military). Again, this is speculation. But it it is plausible.

I'm unaware of anyone bothering pedigree sellers whose identities are known and in some cases part of the pedigree name (Billy Wright, Maggie Thompson, Don Rosa, etc.) when they cash out their comics. But I agree that concern could be a motivator for a request that an attempt to maintain anonymity be made.

Heritage representatives have used both the words "consignors" and "family" when talking about who wants anonymity. It may be that you're right. The family could have sold to the consignor (probably recently), and when they learned the consignor was planning to resell the collection asked the consignor to make an effort to keep the OO's identity a secret. The consignor might have chosen to agree to that request, but only up to a point - and decided to tell part of the story. But that's all complete speculation! And my read of Heritage's statements is to tend to think such a line of speculation is incorrect.

Bob was a POW/MIA advocate, I can think of no reason he'd talk about comic books - a subject that was not on-message to the only cause he talked publicly about. I am not privy to the family's lore, and it is conceivable the promise that was the focus of Bob's public life - the one to his parents - was not the only promise he made relating to Roger. We do not know that Bob's, or anyone else's, descendants "inherited a windfall." We don't know where the money is going. It is also possible that my opinion is wrong. Would not be the first time. Which is why I think Heritage should weigh in.

I'm unaware of any instance where the family of a pedigree OO has been bothered. Obviously, the pedigree collections have included living OOs whose names are part of the pedigree or whose identities have become known. To my knowledge none have been bothered by anyone. Since Heritage possesses and is selling the whole collection, I'm not sure why anyone would bother the OOs extended family. The opportunity to cut into Heritage's business is long gone for any dealers or collectors who had such a thought. It is my opinion, really a guess, that Heritage has fudged facts in an effort to obscure the OO. But, the story told and the markings on the comics themselves give us enough info to, again in IMHO, identify the OO. Had the family truly wanted to ensure anonymity, they should have given no backstory at all and withheld the "Armand" books from sale. But, pedigree back stories boost the prices on comics, and maybe they made a compromise regarding what story, or part of the story, they wanted to tell in order to sweeten the appeal of the books. Heritage and CGC both recognized that the story told added value. Once the decision was made to tell some of the story, it was foreseeable that the full info might come out. Heritage noted at the outset of the marketing of the collection:

An interesting part of the Dumas brothers story is what happened about 20 years or so ago. Newsweek reported in its June 18, 2000 issue: Why might this matter? Because Heritage has relayed that about 20 years ago “Robert” and his family took the comics out of the attic and bagged, boarded, boxed, catalogued, and carefully stored them again. Heritage does not say why, for no apparent reason, "Robert" and "Junies" family would bag, board, box, catalogue and put back into storage comics that had belonged to a man who, under Heritage's telling, had died 50 years earlier. On the other hand, if about 20 years ago Bob Dumas had reached what he thought was a breakthrough point in his quest to locate and bring Roger home from North Korea, it is plausible that Bob was so energized at the prospect of Roger coming home that he reviewed and freshened up the storage of Roger’s possessions so they would be ready to be given back to him. You would not sell the comics if you thought your brother might come home. And Bob viewed himself as a custodian of at least one other item he viewed Roger as owning - the POW Medal - until Roger came home. To me Bob and Roger's story better explains the history of the Promise Collection than Heritage's telling.

Thanks. That family definitely had grit. At one point it also had four or five sons in the United Nations forces in Korea. Bob and Roger were the two youngest by far (5 or 6 year gap to next eldest), and were born just 13 or so months apart.

EDITED BY THE AUTHOR TO ADD: WARNING - SPECULATION IN THIS THREAD MAY BE INCORRECT! Thought some folks might find this bit of history interesting: A little over one year ago, Bob Dumas passed away after devoting the last 70 years of his life to keeping a promise he made to his parents. The promise was made after Bob and his family learned that Bob’s younger brother Roger had been declared missing in action ("MIA") in Korea as of November 4, 1950, due to a Chinese offensive that encircled Roger's battalion. The battalion broke out of the encirclement, but Roger and many others were unaccounted for after the running battle. Bob told the story of the promise he made many times during his life, perhaps most famously during a U.S. Senate Hearing in 1992: "I made a promise to my mother and father in 1950 that I would never stop looking for him until I brought him home dead or alive." Bob's promise made sense. At that time, being MIA often meant being a POW. Communication between the North Koreans and Chinese forces, on the one hand, and the United Nations forces, on the other, regarding POWs was spartan as the Chinese did not commit to the Geneva Convention until July 17, 1952. Thus, it was reasonable for Bob and his parents to believe that Roger might have been captured. Bob kept his promise to his parents by volunteering for front line duty in Korea so he could look for Roger in whatever free time he might have. An obituary states that Bob served two tours of duty and earned three Bronze stars while on the front lines. But Bob didn’t find Roger before the U.S., in line with newly elected President Eisenhower's campaign promise to end the Korean War, entered into the Korean armistice in 1953. Roger also wasn’t one of the prisoners of war (“POWs”) returned to the U.S. by the North Koreans and Chinese in August 1953. Instead, Roger was presumed dead as of February 26, 1954, as a result of a decision made by the Eisenhower Administration to declare all POW/MIAs who had not been returned or otherwise accounted for as "deceased." Still, Bob and his family did not give up hope that Roger was alive, instead they continued to believe Roger had been taken as a prisoner of war and could be brought home. Bob and Roger's father died in 1955. In 1959, six years after the Korean War had purportedly ended, Bob reaffirmed his promise to his mother as she lay on her death bed. As Bob relayed in one of his many media interviews regarding Roger, "I walked in front of her bed, and she thought I was Roger. I said 'No, I'm Bob.' She said, 'I thought it was Roger. I know he's alive. Promise me you'll always look for him.' I promised." Because Bob knew in his heart that Roger was alive, he never did stop looking for him. Roger's remains have never been found. In his search for Roger, Bob became a tireless advocate for Korean POW/MIAs. Bob made many trips to D.C. to meet with government officials, Congressmen, Senators, and at least one President (Reagan) to discuss Roger and POW/MIA issues. Bob testified multiple times to Congress, appeared in many media reports, and was the subject of documentaries. Bob even met with North Korean ambassadors. Later events would prove that Bob's hope concerning Roger was justified. Ultimately, Bob developed conclusive evidence that Roger had not been killed in action when he was declared MIA but had been captured and placed in a POW camp. Bob kept the promise to his parents to never give up looking for Roger until the day he died. Bob's dedication ultimately made Roger a symbol of America's abandonment of POWs held by North Korea after the Korean Armistice in 1953. It also caused Bob to become a leading activist on behalf of families seeking government action to obtain the return of POW/MIAs, and it put Bob in conflict with the highest echelons of the U.S. government – a conflict in which Bob won a significant court battle in 1983 which resulted in the re-classification of Roger from MIA to POW and the recognition that Roger was entitled to a POW medal. As a result, Roger, whose name is inscribed on the Courts of the Missing at the Honolulu Memorial, is a recipient of the Purple Heart, POW Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Korean Service Medal, United Nations Service Medal, Republic of Korea War Services Medal, Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation, and the Combat Infantryman Badge. Roger was also elevated at some point from Private First Class to Corporal. That POW Medal was especially significant to Bob. Bob testified in Congress that, even though the government presented it as a posthumous honor to Roger's family, Bob viewed the medal as Roger's property, not Bob's. Bob viewed himself as just a custodian of that medal until the day Roger would return and Bob could pin it on him. Bob spoke often about the promise he made to his parents and the media took notice. From the 1970s until Bob’s death, numerous articles referencing Bob’s promise to his parents to find Roger appeared in newspapers, national publications like Newsweek, and internet sites. When Bob died, tributes emphasized that Bob never gave up. Bob and Roger deserve honor and recognition for their heroism at war and for Bob's heroism in untiring activism in support of Roger and other POW/MIAs. Does this story have anything to do with comic books? Maybe or maybe not. Through many many hours of research, I have found no mention of Bob and Roger and comic books. Bob and Roger may have nothing to do with the Promise Collection. Only Heritage, who possesses and is marketing all of the books, can answer that question. However, it is notable that Bob's full name is Robert Dumas, and Heritage disclosed that the surviving brother holding custody of the Promise Collection was named "Robert." Here are some interesting media references to Bob using his full name of "Robert:" And it is also notable that Roger (the most junior of seven children) has the middle name "Armand," a name that appears on select copies of Promise Collection books that hit the stands between June and August of 1949: BUT the overlap in names and that a central fact of the story of Robert ("Bob") and Roger Armand Dumas is a promise are NOT proof they are the "Robert" and younger brother "known as Junie" (usually used as a short form of "Junior") at the heart of the story that Heritage has told to market the "Promise" Collection. Honestly, I cannot reconcile a number of the facts relayed by Heritage in marketing the Promise Collection with the facts I have uncovered about Bob and Roger, including details regarding enlistment, date of the OO's death, etc. So, there may be no connection at all. But the story of Bob and Roger is fascinating history that deserves to be remembered. I hope you'll forgive me for telling it if it has no tie to comic books. On the other hand, it may be that most of the discrepancies in the two stories are immaterial, perhaps just a harmless “fudging of the facts" by Heritage intended to serve as misdirection. I have more info to share that would tend to support a tie between the story I just told and the Promise Collection. For example, the story of Bob's search for Roger may well explain why the comics were bagged, boarded, and boxed some 20 years or so ago, but not sold, in way that is far better than the explanation afforded by the marketing story told by Heritage of the Promise Collection. The story of Bob and Roger might also explain why only three months of Promise Collection books say "Armand" on the cover. And other information does point to Bob and Roger as being “Robert” and “Junie,” albeit not conclusively. If there is interest, I'll share additional information and my opinions. Let's face it, the comic collecting community, especially folks who have bought Promise Collection books, deserve to know the story on the collection. Especially if a story as significant as Bob and Roger's is the backstory on the Promise Collection. If so, the comics have a historic and symbolic value that is greater than that disclosed by the marketing story told by Heritage. If the Promise Collection were Roger's comics, preserved by Bob to return to Roger once he was found and brought home, in fulfillment of Bob's promise to his parents, then there could be no better name for such a collection than the "Promise Collection." But let's be clear, the comics would just be a footnote to Bob and Roger's stories. They will be remembered for their historical significance and heroism, not for a comic book collection - except by us collectors who will cherish our connection to their history ... if it exists. I believe it is time for Heritage to weigh in. At the very least, in order to avoid any confusion Heritage should, if truthful, flatly deny that the Dumas brothers are the brothers who compiled and saved the Promise Collection.

My takeaway is that it is very strange that the OO's name is only on some books in a three month period, out of 120+ months he collected, of the books he owned.

I set out to get myself a copy of a Promise Collection book with the OO's name on it. It arrived today from Heritage. I way overpaid, but it is in my humble opinion it one of the two best books as far as highlighting the name goes. Feel free to laugh, but I love it: The other copy that I think displays the name incredibly well, frankly better than mine: Just a few observations on the "Armand" books: Based on the Grand Comic Database's information regarding DC on-sale dates (which are pretty well known), all of the DC "Armand" (monthly cover dated 8/49-10/49 and bi-monthly dated 7-8/49 to 10-11/49) were on sale between June and August 1949: Makes you wonder "why?". I have my theories. Other publishers have books that are in a slightly different cover date range than the DC cover dates, but they are close enough that the on-sale dates likely fell within the DC range. For Example, my example of the signature, is cover dated 7/49. Here are other examples of "Armand Comics" I've seen. Let me know if you know of others. The name can be hard to spot and I'm sure I've missed some. But it is a small group of books:

I remember seeing that Jumbo coming up for sale on eBay and joking on this site: "Look at those pedigree markings!"

It looks like a want ad to me. He's trying to get the attention of someone with a first page of D27, and this is actually a clever way to do it. He explicitly says he wants to buy one. I did business with Theo once and it was a pleasure. He sold me a comic rack from a location in Sacremento where mom bought comics as a kid - the Tower drug store. His price was a little high, but not too much, and owning that rack has meant a lot of me - especially since my mom passed earlier this year.

Great info on the occupied Germany books! For me, the court copies, ashcans, and certain one off books coming from industry sources such as the pay copies and the WW 1 solicitation copy are as good or better than the pedigrees.

Through the roof. Intriguing notion given the history of the Cage books.

To me, the original function of the pedigree concept was just a pre-internet way of giving the buyer comfort that the quality of the book was as represented. I'm not sure that there is any value to a pedigree designation any more other than marketing hype and back story. The original notion that led to "pedigree" becoming a "thing" was that if a collector had seen some MH books or knew others who had, the collector would have an idea as to what the quality of other MH books might be. It was a convenient reference and source of comfort. But over time that has changed, especially since CGC has removed most of the guess work from grading and PQ, and new pedigrees are being sold sight unseen by Heritage (e.g. they don't have a reputation for quality yet, weren't deemed a pedigree by consensus of collectors, and buyers won't get any comfort from prior experience with the ped). As many collectors have taken an interest in more than just the quality of the books, and the need for a "pedigree" designation is largely gone (other than for marketing), the back story has become a big part of the appeal of a ped designation.

No. It was a non-Ped. I have no in to the Chinatown ped. Don't know the guy. Again, my only point was it had a cool back story..

A Fiction House is on the market now. Dealers eventually sell. I expect that the slabbing signals we'll see some selling eventually. And given that I have had the pleasure of acquiring a top of census FC (Uncle Scrooge #2 CGC 9.4 White) before, which I sent on to a good home with a great collector active since the 50s, I suspect that others could have the same luck with the owner of the predigree (my assumption is that relationships matter and I'm not not shopping for top of Census FCs right now). My only point is that the story for the pedigree is interesting, even if the books aren't readily available now. I think you and I might agree that its a weird world where "predigree" status is awarded by CGC for books that have never hit the market. Market acceptance used to be the test. Now it is upside down.

Less than $200 raw for my top of census copy! First Atom Bomb cover! Schomburg cover! What's not to like?: It's just so wrong! Those Swedes were way ahead of their time when it came to innuendo (less than $100 if you can find one): Speaking of Robin, this cover symbolizes to me the great shocking fact of the GA - Robin appeared in more stories and on more covers in the GA than Batman! This one cost less than $400 from Heritage and presents well enough: Speaking of symbolism, this one defines Donald Duck's whole personality for me. Less than a $100 raw (and it is undergraded - best 7.0 white I've ever seen): And here's a cheat. For less than $50 each, you can get cool comic related PBs:

Cat, I'm not surprised some comics' evidence stories that intrigue you. You are an artist which is a form of storytelling, your soulmate was a noted storyteller, and you tell great stories. So I don't doubt that evidence of a good story would rope you in. For me, some pedigrees have evidence on their covers of a very compelling story, most notably Okajima camp copies, and also a small select group of Promise Collection comics from about a four or five month period which feature the name "Armand." So much so, that I set out to buy a comic from a title which, IMHO, is the definition of unsought and undesired, but which I was willing to pay whatever it took (which wasn't much in the relative scheme of things, but was undoubtedly a "world record" as Mitch would put it for that issue from an undesirable title) simply because that name was so beautifully displayed on the cover: Stories matter for a few of the pedigrees. And I really think the story that reveals the full name on that comic cover should be told.

Great questions! Heritage's story is so sketchy that to me it seems like a placeholder. I get that the consignors wanted anonymity, but CGC were the ones who deemed it a pedigree, they must have been informed of all of the details in order to be willing to deem it as a pedigree, and a wise man said this:

Not many people collect an example of every GA and SA ped (and I don't know if anyone's succeeded except you). I think I understand. I'm interpreting you as saying you are happy to pay a premium for peds, you just do not focus on what drives the premium when it comes to getting an example for your typeset?

Edgar Church's story doesn't impress me at all - it is sort of depressing. But the story of how Chuck essentially re-invented the comic market and changed collecting forever is fascinating. Owning a MH is owning a piece of comic collecting history.