Sam T

FANTASTIC FOUR #41  2.5/3.0  $10 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #51  2.0  $15 

King Kai is makin' him chase a monkey @ 10x gravity and he's never been happier.

On 1/29/2024 at 3:41 PM, fantastic_four said:

Even hardcore Spidey fans are mostly like "Madame who?"

In 30 years of reading Spider-Man comics I can say that I have never read a "memorable" Madame Web story. She never really felt like a "character". She was a vague plot device. Pure deus-ex-machina. When the writers messed up real bad and needed Parker to get a bunch of exposition, they threw Madame Web into the story to read the note from editorial. But by doing that, they also destroyed any sense of real stakes in the story.

I'm wondering if any of the usual comic dealers are gonna be at this show in Queens next week. Their guest list is kinda weak and there's no list of vendors. I don't wanna waste a day if no one's showing up 🤣

https://cosmicconny.com/

On 2/3/2024 at 8:53 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

This should be the final post in every CGC "scandal" and "inexplicable performance/QC" thread. None of it matters, because this post by @mikenyc is the absolute truth regarding any CGC situation.

You two absolutely nailed it. I've been posting this link a lot: https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/blackstone

These are all the fines paid by CGC's new parent company and all of their subsidiaries. Once a company is bought out by Blackstone they tend to commit...crimes? I'm honestly not sure if crime is the legally appropriate word but luckily, I'm not a lawyer and it's definitely a morally appropriate use of the word. Blackstone has been fined for lying to investors, ripping off their own employees and destroying the environment.

Of course these guys were going to bust out CGC in a glorious blaze of fraud...it's kinda the only thing Blackstone can do. They cannot generate products, improve a companies reputation or innovate in any way. Blackstone's job is to pile on overhead in the shape of marketing and nepotistic hires and then cuts costs around the product to make up for the budgetary shortfall. Then when the cost cutting destroys the product they sell the asset at a loss and claim those losses against gains on the profits form the companies that haven't been completely busted yet.

CGC's going the way of Ramsey's Sports.

.

I don't think this is gonna end well for Matt "Scatino" Nelson.

On 2/3/2024 at 1:38 AM, JollyComics said:

So two CGC employees were fired.   Why didn't they get arrested?   Why is CGC suing them in the court while they are still free?

This is so obvious and insightful that I kinda feel stupid for not saying this! The lawsuit as described by a guy on twitter (I still haven't been able to find the full text of the complaint) is very clearly describing a criminal act. The idea of filing a lawsuit BEFORE working with law enforcement to have criminal charges filed is just backwards. Generally the stat has more resources and a higher success rate w/ criminal charges than plaintiffs in civil suits. Also, CGC wouldn't be paying for the investigative resources so it would literally save them money while also solving the problem of these two folks.

Going civil before criminal is a very sketchy move...through...his...teeth 🤣

On 2/2/2024 at 3:27 PM, newshane said:

2 different cases? Please explain?

There might be two cases but to the average collector there's still only 1 problem.

We simply cannot trust a slab to be the same book on the label. That's it. The massive portion of the community was suggesting that CGC had a fraudster in the company from the very first day that SwapGate was talked about. CGC made statements declaring that the problem was a single crooked dealer and there was no inside man. The "two separate issues" narrative is only true from CGC's perspective after they told the community there was no inside man. Now that statement doesn't really seem intellectually defendable.

Matt Nelson lied to the comics community.

On 2/2/2024 at 3:15 PM, topcat54 said:

 

Come on...it's 100% impossible to get meaningful information out of a 20 page thread.

Most of the replies don't even contain a complete thought. Even if there's real information in there, it's surrounded by spam. Please copy and paste any information you think is applicable here and I'll check it out but trying to get me to read a whole bunch of nonsense because it MIGHT contain information doesn't really seem reasonable.

On 2/2/2024 at 3:09 PM, workingdog said:

This.  And neither does Blackstone.

This should be everyone's biggest fear. This whole thing kinda feels like an example of "loss harvesting". Blackstone over pays for this asset, then they tank the value with a negative-engagment marketing campaign and get to claim massive losses against any profits they have from their other businesses.

I think CGC is actually more valuable to Blackstone if it's broken and that's very VERY bad for people who think their slabs will be valuable in the long run. 

On 2/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, topcat54 said:

These are 2 different cases

People were noticing a lot of books online with labels that didn't match and then the community said either they're cracking open and resealing slabs or there's an inside man.

CGC's statements on the issue are the only thing separating these cases from each other. The community here is talking about a single issue:

Can we trust the label on a slab when we buy it from a 3rd party or not. 

Matt Nelson is trying to turn one very large problem in a bunch of smaller problems that the company can sweep under the rug. 

On 2/2/2024 at 2:50 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

Aren't they two different situations? 

Only according to CGC. When people started finding the first incontrovertible evidence of reholdering, they immediately started saying that this problem is much bigger than a single dealer and that an inside man was likely to be involved. CGC then went on a media blitz trying to frame the entire issue around a single bad dealer. CGC wants these to be separate issues but in reality there's only one problem:

The community can't really trust that CGC'd book bought from a stranger is the same book as the label. The community does not see each individual scammer as a separate issue. The credibility of CGC's slabs is the only problem that CGC is facing. I mean it's a very simply issue here. Removing and creating false context doesn't really change anything.

Matt Nelson went out of his way to convince the community that CGC employees were not fraudulently reholdering. Two weeks later his company is saying that employees have been committing fraud all along. That can't really be defended. I think Nelson might get the book behind his poor media literacy. Lying on the internet when court documents say otherwise is just corny and weird.

It seems like if CGC was ready to file a lawsuit this week, that they must have already been investigating these folks 2 weeks ago when Matt Nelson gave that interview with 9.9 and Davengers. It seems like the only two possibilities:

1. Matt Nelson was deliberately misleading the community

2. Matt Nelson has no idea what his company is actually doing. 

Both seem to be really really bad for CGC going forward. Their product ain't a bunch of plastic cases. CGC's product is their reputation. Did Matt Nelson just torch the companies reputation?

This is pretty weird. I'm wondering how the registry actually handles reholdering. Right now it's "Grade Date" is listed as 2006 but the label is the newer style that wasn't used until 2016.

Does sending a book to CGC for reholdering in a new label usually trigger a change in the "Grade Date" in the registry?

On 1/17/2024 at 7:26 PM, namisgr said:

it's based on the assumption that during the reholdering process these tampered slabs were carefully and thoroughly examined.

No, I am not assuming that at all but you keep implying that CGC's reholdering employees were incompetent instead of acknowledging much more likely scenario: slabs aren't tamper proof.

There really aren't that many different possible explanations. Really just two. One explanation was a scammer inside CGC's reholdering process, the other explanation was that slabs are being counterfeited well enough to get past CGC's own employees. Matt Nelson said it isn't the first option...that only leaves option #2.

Slabs are not tamper proof.

On 1/17/2024 at 6:57 PM, namisgr said:

There's neither reason nor information at the present time to rule out that CGC going forward will be able to detect damage

Except this isn't the issue. The real issue isn't about CGC employees detecting resealed slabs. The real issue is that if folks can get them buy CGC employees then they can definitely get them by most collectors. And if CGC's slabs can't be trusted from 3rd party sellers, then their service is worth a lot less than it was.

The value of CGC's grading services is directly correlated to communities belief that the slabs are tamper-proof. The community no longer believes that. That's meaningful and it's a much bigger problem than CGC's reholdering process. It's a much bigger problem than one scammer on eBay. Slabs aren't tamper-proof and that's the bigger problem.

On 1/17/2024 at 7:23 AM, namisgr said:

Now that Matt Nelson has been interviewed on the detection of tampered cases,

The only new piece of information that Matt Nelson shared in that interview was confirmation that it was not an inside job and that no CGC employees were implicated. He confirmed that the real issue was the security of the slabs and that someone was able to get swapped books by CGC's own employees...that's the ball game folks 🤣🤣🤣

Saying that collectors should be able to spot fakes while CGC's own employees couldn't do it is just not plausible. 

Matt Nelson's interview is actually worse for CGC than the conspiracy theory he quashed. Firing a rogue employee is an easy way to reduce liability, but he confirmed that the slabs are not secure while CGC continues to sell 'em. Yikes!

On 1/15/2024 at 1:49 PM, namisgr said:

But we don't yet have an answer to a key question that might make many of those concerns go away.  Are cases that have been tampered with and resealed indistinguishable from untampered cases?

I'm sorry but this a pretty unreasonable thing to say. The folks at CGC doing reholdering crack more slabs than anyone else in the world and they were fooled. It's just not reasonable to pretend that a comic buyer could spot something that CGC's own professionals could not spot. And the idea that we still don't know what happened is just not true. There were basically two possible problems we could be seeing:

1. An inside man at CGC swapping books during the reholdering.

2. Slabs are not tamper proof and popular online retailers have figured out how to crack,swap and reseal slabs.

Well Matt Nelson, President of CGC, just confirmed in an interview that there was no inside man or rogue CGC employee involved in this scam. That's actually WORSE for CGC. A bad employee could be fired but if slabs themselves are insecure then it means that their core product is no longer viable and that's a death sentence for a business. 

Anyone taking bets on which investigative service they're using? My money is on K2 (Kroll). Black Cube has too much baggage and Pinkerton has too much overhead.

On 12/25/2023 at 4:43 AM, BA773 said:

I find the original website, there is a fake copy website who make some scam!

Those two websites look nothing alike and the "real one" doesn't even have any online inventory.

On 12/25/2023 at 10:34 AM, BA773 said:

the situation will be cleared and these guys are going to paid! 

What situation? You posted a link to a generic comic store with fake listings and then you posted a link to generic comic book store with no listings. Why would anyone be getting paid from any of this?

On 12/25/2023 at 10:34 PM, Lightning55 said:

Is it to create fake market data, influence prices? Quite involved for that, to drive up values on books you are holding.

You can say it's "more involved" but any plan that ONLY involves online shenanigans is a whole lot easier than a plan that requires a sonic welder.

My point isn't actually trying to prove that it's "a fake auction scam" vs a "fake slab scam" my point is that we don't need the conspiracy theory about and inside man in their reholdering department to hold CGC accountable. If people can make their own slabs or swap and reseal with the finished product looking so good that CGC can't even tell, then the real problem is so much bigger than "a conspiracy to reholder". If slabs aren't tamper proof then graded books no longer deserve to carry a premium in the market. And when CGCing a book doesn't provide value to the customer, their business becomes unsustainable. When that happens, whoever they're getting their plastic from is just going to bring 'em to market and sell empties, further eroding the value of CGC'd books.

There are 3 possible problems that fit the facts I've seen:

1. Slabs are not tamper proof or people are counterfeiting slabs (sonic welders aren't that rare). They look so good that that even CGC can't tell they've been tampered with during their reholdering process.

2. A bunch of questionable, high value sales of bronze age mega-keys were faked on eBay.

3. A grader at CGC employee during the reholdering process is upgrading and removing listed defects from books that either he or an associate plan to sell on eBay.

I keep seeing people talking about CGC needing to fix their reholdering process but that's not where any of these problems are actually coming from. Problem #1 originates from their slabbing process. Problem #2 originates from eBays flawed user verification process. And the conspiracy angle, Problem #3 doesn't start @ reholdering, it starts at hiring. CGC would have had to hire a fraudster and then given him no oversight at all for several years for #3 to be the problem.

Problem #3 is the Swagglehaus version and it means that CGC is a hive of villainy, a place where fraudsters are given the resources and room to grow and flourish...but I honestly don't believe that's the case. But problem #1 represents the real biggest threat to CGC. #1 being the case would be an existential threat that CGC could not survive. Personally I think #2 is the most likely, that this is a just bunch of dudes spiraling about fake data they found on social media websites (ebay included). I just think out of the possibilities of "fake slabs", "fake sales" or "inside man", #3 is the least likely and the most inflammatory allegation against CGC. You're ascribing the company itself has having the intent to defraud and that's just kinda implausible.

On 12/25/2023 at 9:45 PM, pdags said:

I'm an Occam's Razor guy.

I'm actually pretty sure Occam would be on my side in this 🤣

What's simpler, a scam that involves sitting at your computer and generating fake data with fake accounts or a scam that involves the kind of trial and error, insider information and/or physical craftsmanship that would be required to come up with a method of swapping and resealing?

If a person generates an ebay account with fake information and fake/stolen payment information, they can simply rack up debt on an ebay account without it mattering. Also, I don't think I've been charged auction fees for auctions that buyers don't actually pay for. When an auction ends, it pops up in "sold listings" immediately. It does not require payment actually going through. The only version of this where the ebay scammer has to pay fees is the version where he's only willing to do one kind of scam. But the guy who does counterfeiting will also do identity theft. Internet crimes are easier and simpler than real world crimes. It's has to be easier to generate fake accounts on ebay than it is figure out the secrets to CGC's encapsulation process.

On 12/25/2023 at 9:22 PM, VintageComics said:

They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants). They clearly stated others knew who he was.

People saying they have proof of something is not the same as people sharing proof of something. I'm sorry but this is sounding more and more like children on a playground playing telephone.

I asked if you had any proof that cracking and resealing is even possible and your response was "well someone said they knew someone who had seen it done at some time". Ya...that ain't evidence of a conspiracy. Yikes...This is getting weird. I'm gonna stop engaging with you because you seem unwilling to discuss what has actually happened and instead you're only willing to discuss the discussion of what MIGHT have happened.

We all KNOW that you can generate fake sales data on ebay. We've all seen it. None of us have seen anyone crack and reseal a slab without any evidence of tampering. That's the only real issue here and you refuse to make that the focus of your discussion. You keep citing anonymous claims and secret knowledge. That's weird. Good luck.

On 12/25/2023 at 9:12 PM, pdags said:

This is the heart of the issue for me.  There's no reason we should assume the reholder step was a necesary step in the process and/or only specific books were targetted

Yep, if the version that the youtube conspiracy theorists keep sharing is true then it's not reholdering that's broken, its the holders themselves.

I'm curious what you think of my theory that it might actually not be a CGC issue as much as a fake internet sales issue? We have no actual evidence that any of these transactions actually took place. The second an auction ends, it starts showing in "sold listings", before payment has been sent or processed. We have no reason to think any of the comics OR the buyers from these auctions actually exist.