Phill the Governor

On 1/12/2024 at 7:25 PM, szav said:

I have not performed color touch removal, nor have I, nor would I purchase a book where there's readily apparent paper loss to the underlying book as the result of such, with the intent of deslabbing then inspecting them in hand.  I have not otherwise performed any restoration on books, but I am somewhat knowledgeable about and practiced in methods used to detect restoration.

Since you don't have any actual experience with this it sounds like you may be lending an emotional response instead of seeing the nuanced landscape. Totally understandable, especially when you see a book that was desecrated. I get that. Except you're forgetting about the subjective nature of collecting. One man's trash is another mans potpourri (I like the Grinch version the most). There exist many more people than you'd think who are fine with every one of the books you've posted. You don't' like these books, that's fine you don't have to.

On 1/12/2024 at 7:25 PM, szav said:

1) concerning the books pictured below by what argument have these books not been trimmed?  Particularly the Wonder Woman where large portions of paper have been completely excised, how is this not identical to cutting paper off the edges of the book with the intent to deceive and secure a grade that results in higher monetary value for the book.  This is a purple label book if ever there was one.  For the Planet, how is poking holes along the spine to remove CT not 'trimming' even if you somehow believe that scraping portions off the book horizontally is not also trimming.

Trimming is, by definition: a technique that involves cutting off the edges of a comic book's cover or pages to remove defects and sharpen edges. Unlike the other restoration techniques, trimming results in an improved appearance through destruction (loss of paper). What you are doing is taking the later part of the definition of trimming and applying it to this. They are not the same thing, no matter how much you want to try and create your own definition for it. Horizontal trimming is not a thing.

On 1/12/2024 at 7:25 PM, szav said:

2) This Hit Comics 5 has the telltale signs of scraping.  Has paper been removed to achieve this look?  If not, is this done by treating with some sort of chemical that bleaches the paper or turns it stark white, and would that not be color touch meant to deceive as to the state of the book.

You answered your own question: There is no longer color touch. The book was not trimmed to mask anything, but paper was removed at areas of previously covered defects which is insanely apparent. The book isn't trying to be anything other than what it is.

On 1/12/2024 at 7:25 PM, szav said:

3) Should CGC be noting the color touch, removal, particularly when they are the perpetrators?  Does it seem deceptive to you at all that these plainly visible, unnatural looking defects, are often times not noted at all in the graders notes, or are noted simply as "scrape" without further explanation, thus intentionally obscuring the history of the book, all for the purpose of assigning a grade of higher monetary value.

No. You answered your own question: the areas of color touch removal are plainly visible, therefore there is no deception.

On 1/12/2024 at 7:25 PM, szav said:

4) what do you think of my idea that they could simply offer the blue label grade that it would get "if the CT were removed" without actually removing it?  There is precedent for such treatment particularly with some of the Church books.  Would you agree that it might be better for the hobby, better for CGCs reputation as stewards of the hobby who built their brand on authentication and identification of tampering, and better for the books themselves if such a policy was adopted?

No.

Back to the subjective nature of collecting...  Some people prefer the one they know has 0 restoration on it. You could leaf-cast or add paper, if necessary, and/or just recolor touch the area to get your purple label again. Or you can pass on the copy if it's not to your liking. CGC doesn't have to remark about it because 1. it's incredibly obvious to the naked eye and 2. remark on what? they grade the book as it sits. The book has defects of paper/color loss at affected areas and downgraded appropriately.

I'm not trying to change your mind since it seems to be made up. It can be unsightly, sure, but calling ct-removal trimming is factually incorrect and will only confuse others.

On 1/12/2024 at 12:42 PM, Xatari said:

I’ve used the example recently that I don’t understand the prices for BWS Conan art as it’s irrelevant to me, however, I can understand there is a different generation to which it appeals and thus has value to those that do esteem it differently. 

I’m sure people felt the same when the OA from New Mutants 98, X-Force 1, Lee’s X-Men 1 all started selling for big numbers. “Why would someone pay so much in this market?” 

Hindsight brings much more clarity. Just different perspectives from different collectors.

I gotta agree with you on the BWS. As much as I appreciate the art, I can't imagine a scenario where I'd choose that over countless other things I'd like. Maybe we're in the minority, or maybe Conan is a character that's ebbed in his generation and not really relevant nowadays to satisfy the nostalgia like other characters do for us.

On 1/12/2024 at 2:02 PM, szav said:

Do tell.  Is it possible to remove CT without physically removing or chemically altering the underlying paper?  You might convince me if it’s somehow possible.  I’m pretty sure paper was removed from the pictured Wonder Woman comic earlier in the thread.  But do explain if we’re somehow ignorant about what’s happened with these books.

If any substance of the paper is removed then I’ll maintain my assertion that the book is effectively getting trimmed. 

You did some side skirting, but for the sake of the conversation lets say that the answer to your question is no.

But I'll ask again, what's your experience with seeing books in hand that have been removed from a slab and removing color touch and/or other restoration/conservation?

I don't want to make the assumption that you don't actually have experience, except pointing to obvious already graded books that have had ct removed, but trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

On 1/12/2024 at 11:59 AM, szav said:

That’s a strange argument.  I think deception about previous deception still = deception.

CT removal that removes paper does not bring the book to its original or natural state, or show it’s true condition.  It simply alters it in a different way.

CT scraping is just  a thin trimming horizontal to the plane of the paper vs a vertical cut.

Sounds like a slippery slope of confusion if you're going to attribute the word deception to color touch removal, considering it's inherently the exact opposite.

What's your experience with seeing books in hand that have been removed from a slab, and removing color touch and/or other restoration/conservation?

On 1/12/2024 at 7:34 AM, Pontoon said:

CGC is not infallible. But selling a de-slabbed purple label book without disclosure is as best unethical if not outright dishonest. I would preemptively not buy anything, especially raw books, from a seller like that.

I think the person made a mistake in assuming they are better at IDing color touch than they actually are. Many people think the same way. It's not out of dishonesty, more like ignorance.

I think the argument that ct removal is as bad as trimming is also ignorant. Trimming was done to deceive. Color touch was done to deceive. And color touch removal is done to remove something that is deceiving so the true condition of the book can be seen. That part isn't complicated, to me at least. The complicated part is when it's safe to remove and when it's better to leave it alone.

I just amended the review in the title I had originally gave.

I recently had some books for sale, and one had an offer made, near asking, and sold within days of listing. Got paid fairly quickly, all things considered. Will definitely be using Shortboxed more going forward and glad I changed my mind about the app.

On 1/10/2024 at 9:19 AM, tth2 said:

That's not the decision most people are coming to, particularly dealers/flippers who are buying restored CT books.  They only care about making money off the book.  They could care less if the books are damaged as a result, all they care about is getting an unrestored label with as little a drop in grade as possible and successfully arbitraging the difference between the value of the book as a restored CT book and the value of the book as an unrestored CT-scraped book.

Yeah but that doesn't negate the responsibility falling to them, just lends an argument that it's happening more often than some people's preference would be. There's no mention of all the books with ct removed that aren't obvious or noticed because removal didn't impact the eye appeal really at all/nearly as much. So the good cases of removal aren't noticed and by default the worst examples get pushed towards the front, making it appear those instances are more common.

Not saying you're wrong that some greedy dealers/flippers will do it no matter what, etc. but again this is more nuanced than it may appear.

On 1/2/2024 at 5:44 PM, westform said:

He has not been paid.

If they don't have insurance, this may be a matter of them contacting the current person who has it in their possession and making a case. Having them explain that this has all happened within a 100 day window and the case for the package they "purchased" is still open indicating the relative short timeframe.

Surely current person who has it paid pennies on the dollar for the package so they could do the moral thing and sell it back for their cost. But anyone in that position would understandably be hesitant to pass of a perceived windfall even given the full story. Could be possible your friend could take legal action against USPS, especially if this is an inside job. I've heard of cases in the past where postal workers are the in guy and get paid off to either steal or relocate packages so they never get delivered and they split a cut with the person who's going to sell it. This is such a high valued piece, it statistically seems unlikely this happened by accident. Was there ANY indication on the outside of the package of what was inside?

Also, someone earlier in the thread said the current owner had other like-pieces for sale. Can that be confirmed despite the possibility of them removing those listings too to cover their tracks?

On 1/2/2024 at 10:06 AM, westform said:

About a month ago, I was able to reach a person at my local branch and they said the last trace of the package was in Bethpaige NY. So I dont think it ended up at my local postoffice. Plus, my delivery guy knows me and a good solid guy. 

Were you refunded for the art since it was never received? That's the most important question, otherwise this falls back onto the person you bought it from.

On 12/31/2023 at 7:33 PM, westform said:

He says he boight it legally from usps as unclaimed lost mail. 

You likely have a receipt of sale via e-mail or elsewhere, as well as the open case with USPS, etc. in order to file a police report. You know where it is, that's usually the hardest part to find out. Could be wrong, but I think that's gotta be done (and asap) before they're legally required to give it up.

edit: I sent the seller a polite message indicating the piece is owned legally by someone else with a prior bill of sale and got this response:

Hi, I legally purchased all my items from USPS themselves. I presume the item was insured by the seller when it was originally sold and shipped. There is usually 1 option with these types of scenarios...The buyer or seller contacts the postal service and they get in communication with someone higher up who handles lost and unclaimed cases. USPS can usually make a deal with me.

I've dealt with situations like this before, and the outcome is always the same... I legally purchased my items from USPS. Meaning I legally own each of my purchases. I have the right to sell my items.

How did you hear about this?

I've had it for a little while but just posted this Bermejo ink-washed interior from Luthor. Current pride of my collection.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1983729

On 12/29/2023 at 4:29 AM, KCOComics said:

That's incredible! 

I've only ever seen a copy at cons and I've certainly never held a copy! 

Thanks for sharing it! 

It was one of the last big books I had never touched raw. Past jobs gave me the experience to check most of them off my list but these were always, always slabbed.

And the irony of my previous statement, being humbled & then shameless self-promoting, isn't lost on me. Again, I'm only 33 and this is the first copy of Superman #1 that's come through my hands. Needless to say, the excitement was peak.

On 12/28/2023 at 11:02 PM, JC25427N said:

That's a beauty, the person who submitted it to you definitely doesn't lack understanding!

I got goosebumps when I turned to this page. A piece of history!

Thought this went for a pretty healthy price. While some Adlard WD pages sit unsold for a few hundred, nice quality examples like this are going for a premium. A nice one and done example.

On 11/27/2023 at 1:32 PM, alxjhnsn said:

Yeah, deciding to send the art is the biggest decision. Priority Registered from Houston to Orlando was $80. So, $160 was the minimum I would have spent. 

As far as bleaching goes, I have a sunburned piece (what was it framed off center anyway?)

It's colored pencils. When I asked other restorers (not Alexandra), they said that there was nothing that they could do. Basically, I would need to block off the tanned area and let the lighter side age.
 

Anyone dealing with high-end items should have in-house insurance that would cover you shipping anything to them, as long as a declared value is set beforehand and there is a signed submission form. Signature required is all that is needed. That alone should reduce the perceived risk of sending items through the mail (and the overall cost!). In my experience, and after talking to several USPS employees, registered mail is not only takes much longer but isn't actually more secure because the amount of checkpoint the package has creates a larger chance of something happening to it. Which is ironic, given it is suppose to be more secure.

The bottom piece could very likely be treated (would need a spot test done first to be sure) but in all likelihood the piece would have to have great sentimental value or otherwise for it to make sense.

From the above scans, Alexandra looks to do incredible work!

On 11/23/2023 at 10:29 AM, marvelmaniac said:

https://nerdsonearth.com/2021/07/simple-tools-to-clean-your-comic-books/

 

 

I do not remember starting that thread over a decade ago. Funny how times change...

For most comics absorene is not worth the effort/results. Much better alternatives exist....