porky

34 minutes ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

Tsp99 26-1  [95]
porky 13-7  [75]

 

going out on a decent score at least. that would've gotten me thru a lot of matchups.

Gonna keep trying until CGC agrees with my grading and I win. Count me in.

kudo kudo.

paid quick, no problems.

i dunno about pressing, but i have a book there for resto that's been gone for close to 3 years now.

Does Russ Heath ever do shows?

he was at SDCC a couple of year back.

I hope they make Dr. strange fight evil penguins. Or at least sneak some stuffed toy ones into the background somewhere.

seems to be a side-effect of the heavier cover paper stock. thicker paper, cracks the color more when it's folded at the spine

I sent a box of 11 moderns off yesterday, so when I see them marked as "Received," I will start the date list.

 

11 moderns, no fast-track, marked as:

 

Received, 2/21/14

Received & verified, 2/25/14

Scheduled For Grading, 3/18/14

Graded, 3/24/14

Graded/Quality Control, 4/3/14

 

 

 

-slym

Mine went from graded/quality control back to just graded. And the wait continues...

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

 

Most restoration can be detected reliably by people who have studied restoration. Reliably does not mean 100% as there is a human factor involved.

 

I can sometimes tell if a book is restored from 4 feet away. Sometimes I need a loop to confirm what I think might have been done to a book. Once in awhile I miss something.

 

If you are looking for perfection, then, yes, move along. The only place it exists is Fantasy Land.

 

Many collectors learn from reading the boards, so there is always something to see here......

 

my tongue was firmly in cheek for the number of people who apparently can't accept missed restoration and human error in this thread and thus get off the cgc criticism and move on from this thread ...not the boards

 

You're missing the point. As has been noted before, many people, especially those who put down large sums of money for comics, have educated themselves in restoration and grading. The problem comes when a potential buyer cannot examine a book for themselves, using their own education (whatever level it may be) to decide if the book is restored or not.

 

In that regard, CGC (and any other grading company worth anything; currently none) HAS to be near-perfect in detecting it, because by encasing it, they've (mostly) removed the ability for the buyer to investigate on his own.

 

It's not about making mistakes. No one that I have seen has ever said "CGC must be perfect, always, period." It's about how you go about fixing those mistakes. And if CGC makes such a mistake, they must be prepared to rigorously confront it and resolve it to the satisfaction of all parties involved, precisely because every buyer must (nearly always) accept CGC's word that a book isn't or is restored. There are literally millions (if not billions) of dollars resting on that reputation.

 

It is, after all, why they've been paid to do what they do for the last 15 years. For all the thousands upon thousands of books that people have paid them to grade, part of that is "mistake insurance."

 

It is the way that CGC addresses these situations that is being criticized, not that the situations exist.

 

They don't have to address it. They cover themselves on the certification notice. And I quote....

 

"A good faith effort is made to detect restoration, but CGC does not warrant the process or the results."

 

Warrant = Guarantee.

 

 

 

 

if they can 100% detect resto with every eye in the house on one trip through and miss it on at least one (probably two) occasions when they couldn't be bothered to look closely enough, is that *really* a good faith effort?

also, since they got so greedy with the grader notes, it would be a nice consolation prize to give proud owners of a purple label free grader's notes detailing the "restoration detected". i'd feel at least slightly better if they had to tell me, for free, where the invisible CT is on my books that looked fine to me when i sent them in. and since i nearly only SS, it's not like i can crack and look better myself without ruining the SS designation.

Sadly, I'm having to skip pages because this thread is just too damn long, but here's my take.

 

When you pay CGC, you are paying for their professional opinion on the state of a book.

 

You are not putting money in a machine that uses algorithms to calculate a grade.

 

Three highly experienced individuals take a look at your book and each give their opinion, in an efficient (and generally effective) amount of time.

 

If, in their opinion, the book is a 6.0, that book is NOT necessarily going to be a 6.0 by everyone's standards, including professionals who have been active longer than CGC.

 

If you send a book in and three of CGC's graders decide together on a 6.0 one day, then their honest opinion at that point in time is that it's a 6.0. If they say, "Hey, Paul, I'm pretty sure this one is restored." Paul says, "Yeah, I agree, but I can't be sure - I'm gonna check with a few more people," and they all agree (in their educated opinion) that it is trimmed, then the CGC designation will reflect that. Once again, that is just the company's opinion.

 

If they get the book on a different day and a different pregrader looks at it and evaluates the book using his experience and it seems to be non-trimmed and there isn't anything prompting him to look deeper or longer than any other book that gets submitted, then why would he? He passes the book on to the Primary Grader without a "trimmed" designation and the Primary Grader has no reason to dig deeper (unless he notices something the pregrader doesn't, which I'm sure happens from time to time). Then, it gets the blue label.

 

You are paying for an opinion. Nobody at CGC has a brain like a computer that allows them to give a "correct" grade. Only "as accurate as their professional experience will allow".

 

As others have said, they have graded, what, over 3 million comics? Out of that number, a handful of incidents of disagreement or conflicting CGC grades have arisen. Statistically, CGC has an incredibly high success rate and a lot of the issues out there are, in my opinion, just differences in opinion and not screwups like sending back the wrong book (has that happened before? It might have, I actually don't remember).

 

In this particular case, I'm not sure if CGC did something wrong, persay. Maybe they should have looked closer, but if the graders didn't have any indication of manipulation to the book, then I don't think we should put them on blast for missing a very close trim job. Even then, as others have said, books are weird and a book designated as "trimmed" is still just someone giving an opinion supported by evidence. If there is no evidence in someone's eyes, then they can't form that opinion.

 

CGC has decided that the book is trimmed, so they were in the right for publicly announcing that, therefore voiding their certification of the book as it is right now. Good move.

 

I disagree with the idea of removing the book from the market. The blue label already voided in the eyes of the boards, and if it comes up on the public market with the apparent trimming not disclosed, someone here will notice and will make it public. If the seller is honest about the apparent trimming, then buyers will know what they're buying into.

 

I don't think this will, or should, hurt CGC's reputation in any way, since they did everything they promised they'd do, and provided the service they paid for.

 

In the end... Buy the book, not the label. CGC is one player in a game where the most important player is yourself. Use CGC's word as an opinion only, and combine it with information provided by the seller, the community and your own judgement (which will get better the longer you're in the hobby.)

 

Just my .

so the resto detection you paid for is only triggered "if it looks fishy". nice to know. this is a big sign that says "DO GOOD RESTO, GET BLUE LABEL"

 

i'd bet $1,000. that if i resubbed my 3 books that i think are questionably touched, at least one would come back blue

 

This scares me. It appears CGC is going to be bombarded with resubmitted

PLOD's, trying to slip it past them, and then come on here and say 'I told you so'. I hope all of you waste a lot of money and still get the PLOD and a lower grade.

CGC, if you are listening, to put a stop to all this nonsense I would start grading tight, tight, tight. Let the resubs take a beating and slow this train down for a while.

people have gotten CT and trims for books they bought new. why not? the fact thay they're SS is the only thing stopping me. too easy to track.

Not sure I learned anything from this thread that I can apply to my daily routine, or to life in general.

buy purples with "good" trimming, crack-resub-$

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

why "remove it from the market"? because it's been blue, purple, then blue again? taking it away won't change the fact that resto detection is basically a coinflip now.

 

I doubt it's a "coin flip" but it's no secret that it's never been a 100% certainty. I was much more concerned that they didn't catch color touch on the other book than that they missed trimming on the JIM. Theoretically, CT should be a lot easier to ID.

you would think. but if they weren't SS, i'd bet $1,000. that if i resubbed my 3 books that i think are questionably touched, at least one would come back blue

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

why "remove it from the market"? because it's been blue, purple, then blue again? taking it away won't change the fact that resto detection is basically a coinflip now.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks that was a cogent response. Are there cases where trim cannot be detected?

well, from the case with this issue: if it's a really good trim, it'll slide by 2 out of 3 times?

The "- CGC misses resto sometimes (see #5 above) It happens." is what I have an issue with. I can live with missing resto. Stuff happens. But when they see resto that isn't there?... Some 'splainin' to do.

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

See my last post on the issue of trimming. If you've ever seen a micro trimmed book in hand I think you'd agree that without before and after scans it's nearly impossible to tell with certainty. You're getting the same opinion on trimming you are on a grade. There's a detection difference between this and the other things you mentioned. Trimming is an opinion the same kind of opinion you seek to exploit. And I don't say that negatively because I do the same thing. I'm simply pointing out that the detection of trimming isn't a fact in the same sense the other things you mentioned.

but they were apparently certain with every set of eyes in the place when they made it purple. yet it goes back again and it doesn't set off any alarms?

hadn't seen this thread before. need to dig out my double-stapled-inverted interior supergirl #1 (rusty staples,sadly) and no-staple action comics.

I have a PGX ASM 3 that was graded 6.0 back in 2006. Maybe I should CPR to CGC and get away from the PGX stigma.

 

i had a few books graded PGX before realizing my mistake. they were all upgraded by going CGC. just gotta worry about possible undetected resto.

got these for $4 each

35, just started collecting again after 20+ yr hiatus

similar here. 37, back at it for a few years after taking a +/- 15 year break

EIGHT covers

 

 

Get that junk out of here.

 

 

You get any crazy offers for that yet? You need to consign it over to one of the big auction houses.

quad cover 9.8 hulk 340 went for $1,500 a couple of years back, so i think this one might be around $2,000... gotta edit that- forgot how crazy people get for that extra 0.1 point. they sky's the limit!

Has anyone ever seen extra staples as a "bindery defect". I bought a TTA 27 and when I opened it to the centerfold there were 4 staples on the spine. The weird thing is only two of the staples were holding the cover on. It's like in the bindery process, before the cover was on, the stapler stapled the coverless comic, then the cover was laid on and then the stapler came down again.

 

Has anyone else seen something like this?

 

I would swear it all looks like original stapling and not something a collector did later.

Yeah. That happened sometimes. I think I read an explanation on here one time about books with covers missing or somehow ripped off due to malfunctions in the printing process being given new covers, resulting in two sets of staples. I have a supergirl 1 like that, and in addition, the inside of the comic is flipped- they put the cover on the wrong way. It's a really cool book, shame that all the staples are rusty

should be blue either way. not sure if you're get a better grade leaving them or removing them.