jsylvester

On 3/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, Rick2you2 said:

No offense intended. When I started buying OA, I bought a Neal Adams cover for $200 and a Totleben/Bissette Swamp Thing page for around $40. So, no matter how much time has passed, everything seems absurdly expensive. By modern standards, your collection may be wonderful, and to you, it is wonderful. But the prices still leave me scratching my head.

So when you use the term “pedestrian” it reflects all comic art? Never heard the term before and it has an elitist sound to it so wasn’t sure what the implication was. 
It looks like comic art across the board has increased in value significantly so everyone should be happy even though most of us will never sell it. It’s no surprise that prices are going up as OA as a whole is finally getting recognition and more people are finding out about it. I personally would rather own art than most other investments and yes I think of it as an investment in order to wrap my head around the prices today. This could all go down tomorrow with the stock market but it will just come back when a recovery comes. My mentality is to buy what I love with the intention to hold long term. I’ll probably sell a few pages along the way to pay for the initial costs but the bulk of it is staying with me.

On 3/22/2022 at 5:57 AM, Rick2you2 said:

But these days, how much is shilling vs. “market making” or price manipulation? I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work, yet that seems to be the case. And, I plead guilty to buying spare OA in case I can ever use it for trade bait (not likely). Is there really that much shilling going on even now? My instincts suggest it should be on the rise to preserve market gains, but it could be just new money or people who have a limited recollection or caring about old prices.

What does “I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work” mean? It would make me sad knowing that anyone would consider the bulk of my collection pedestrian. 
also shilling isn’t as prevalent as you think. Good luck trusting someone to bid on a $40k piece of art and being stuck with the BP. I don’t know anyone that would be ok with that on either side. Us collectors certainly don’t trust each other with that type of ask let alone need to. Then again I’m a fairly secluded collector. The defender persona I can understand. I can also understand cornering the market which I guess I do unknowingly as I buy every single piece from a few stories. But shilling isn’t needed and good luck finding someone willing to do it at today’s prices.

On 3/21/2022 at 5:14 PM, Bronty said:

It happens all the time in both comics and comic art, without people even realizing they are doing it.

Their favorite book is fantastic four 1, and they own a 6.0 (substitute DD168 in 9.8 or any book in any grade at all or subsitute a page by an artist you like).    They are a big fan of the book (page), another copy (page) comes up for sale and they bid 90% of FMV because the worst thing that could happen is that they get a double (similar example) of their favorite book (page) at a discount.

That happens every, single day.     And there's no agenda, there's no manipulation, just the market acting to set a floor, and there's nothing wrong with that.    So, to Tim's point, this is NOT shilling so long as the "defender" doesn't own the piece himself, is not colluding with the consignor or others, and is willing and able to buy the piece if his is the winning bid.

 

This is the first I’ve heard of the defender persona. I somewhat agree but don’t think it’s so cut and dry. I guess I’m a strange hybrid. I wasn’t a huge comic book reader except for a few big events along with some titles which really impacted me as a kid. I’ve purchased every piece I found except a few and kick myself every day for not going the distance on those missed opportunities. OA from these events dried up and found myself expanding into other great art and posters I grew up with. Luckily I expanded my interests as I can sell those pieces to buy what I originally started collecting for. There has to be a subset of collectors like me that buys a narrow range of OA from their childhood storylines. I haven’t sold any pages until recently after holding for over a decade. I’m sure I’ll consolidate some of it eventually but it’ll be difficult as I think every page is a keeper in its own way. I’m coming to terms that I can’t own everything and I’d back off from pieces if a fellow collector told me they wanted it. There’s a couple cool collectors that did it for me and don’t care if something sells low. Prices bounce around and would rather have friends that own art so we can talk about it. I personally don’t think auctions are a good example of comps anyway.

On 3/20/2022 at 10:20 PM, cloud cloddie said:

I think most of the Supes pages are from Bogdanove’s personal collection. He cleaned out his storage unit last year and is probably sitting on a ton of art, so don’t think he’s necessarily worried about getting top dollar. 
 

I believe Janke got 1/2 the art so don’t think Bog has all that many Doomsday pages. I personally think he sold early but hope he does well and am sure he has a few awesome pieces he’ll hold long term. I’m just happy he’s the one benefitting from the auction.  

On 3/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Rick2you2 said:

So are you saying that art for under $20,000 is lousy? Because if you are, then the bulk of my collection ought to make me sad. And, I am willing to wager that a fair number of other people on these boards would be in the same boat. What people are now willing to pay is something I consider extraordinary, but it’s their money. Is this a second paradigm shift? Maybe, collectibles that are hot are a good hedge against inflation. But that’s meaningless if you don’t buy it as an investment. 

I don’t think anyone thinks under $20k is lousy. I’ve had collectors diss the bulk of my collection calling the stories a fad that killed the comic industry. Many consider 90s art negatively. I still bought everything I saw as these were the stories I loved as a kid. I can remember every page and consider myself lucky. Yes the prices are high now but I just average the costs out. I’ve never looked down on anyone else’s art as I know they grew up on it and know what it feels like. All said I do think prices will go higher so it is a bit of an investment mindset that helps me rationalize spending this type of money. Everyone should buy what they love as it’s more difficult to sell whether the price is high or low.

On 3/20/2022 at 6:02 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

$20K max for something good was so 2010.

In 2012, the Shamus collection sold on HA and shook the foundation of our collective understanding of what folks were willing to pay for late 80’s/early 90s OA values.  Call it a quantum leap #1. 
its no secret that we’re presently in the midst of quantum leap #2.  Just can’t put my finger on the trigger…Covid money?  New crypto wealth? Shift in collectibles segmentation?  FOMO? Rising Tides?

I won quite a few lots from the Shamus collection and don’t think we’ve been tested with such a large quantity of quality like that. Tangible assets will continue higher in general and the wealthy that have the purchasing power multiplied. Anything that holds value is being gobbled up. I’m seeing it in cars, watches, and art. We still haven’t seen gold vending machines so get ready. I think it’s a combination of everything you listed and am holding long term. 

On 3/20/2022 at 5:14 PM, Rick2you2 said:

There are a lot of older collectors who feel the same way, including me. Some of the younger ones, however, have enjoyed an embarrassment of riches, so to speak, and don’t seem to mind. Others don’t mind so much as they buy with the intent to sell and “move up.” So, some of the relatively new stuff has enjoyed a lot of appreciation. 

I don’t sell what I buy, and I cannot get over the view that the established pricing market is sort of nuts. And, I also don’t think there is a qualitative difference in many cases to justify the price differences—more a matter of nostalgia and artistic style than out and out quality. Almost anything published by the Big Two will be very good, some a bit better, some not.  The key is to focus on what you like, not to pay much attention to what everyone else tells you is good, and enjoy the fun of ownership. Bank the difference, and buy a Miata (or something similar) with a stick shift. Now that is money well spent.😉

Agree and probably should have stated $40k the way things look today. I remember $20k being my ceiling a decade ago and wish I went higher. There’s a lot of new money and have already prepared myself for the fact I too will be priced out on some stuff as these stories mature. I only buy what I love which has helped me hold everything even as prices go up. I think collectors that love art are less likely to sell which keeps the supply low. I’d bank the difference but have attachment issues.

On 3/20/2022 at 3:34 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I have also used that approach, but I think it is counterproductive except in situations where there are not to a lot of highly interested bidders. I think it will knock out the bidders who aren’t that into it, but if they are, they are likely to match you.

There are collectors that don’t feel comfortable going over $20k or whatever number they deem too high respective to their income or savings. I know there’s a lot of interest but the demographics for what I like are still relatively young which should hopefully hold prices down. Hopefully 

On 3/20/2022 at 3:21 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

What I don’t understand is having so many pages from the storyline available at one time.  I get that the seller may be attempting to capitalize on the previous HA results in order to strike while the market is on fire, but with this number of pages available from the Death of Supes, it can only cannibalize sales prices

It’s a buying opportunity for sure

On 3/20/2022 at 3:23 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

However, an early reveal can also provide competitors with additional time to raise funds and/or alter their thoughts upwards as to what their maximum bid should be

I’m fine with that. All of my best art was won at high prices at the time. Not that many collectors will go where I’m willing to go for what I love.

On 3/20/2022 at 12:22 PM, batman_fan said:

If you are really interested in that, you have to wait until the final hammer.  Trying to draw any conclusion at this point is pointless.  I have seen most items slowly climb from the auction start to a day before it closes on line bidding, pop the last day of internet bidding and then potentially explode during the live bidding.

Not always true as I’d rather thin the herd. Removes bidders that might get caught up in the moment. It essentially turns into a reserve.

On 12/23/2021 at 10:11 PM, O. said:

Here's my analysis of first appearance OA:

https://comicbookinvest.com/2016/12/30/first-appearances/

 

There are so many variables with first appearances. I personally only chase first appearances from stories of my childhood. I don’t get excited over characters I don’t have a nostalgic connection to. That said I can see value in A list character first appearances.

On 12/24/2021 at 1:12 AM, tth2 said:

I think there’s more of a correlation than some here might be willing to admit, but it goes only in one direction.

Basically, a comic that is expensive will almost always result in its OA pages being more expensive than comparable pages from a non-expensive issue.  In fact, I can’t think of a case where that’s not true.  It doesn’t mean that every page from that issue will be equally valuable, of course, but I do believe that a non-descript non-character Romita page from ASM 129 will go for much more than a non-descript non-character Romita page from ASM 128 or 130 (I’m not an ASM or Romita collector, so if it turns out that he didn’t do the art for 128 or 130, don’t jump all over me; I think you get my point).

But the correlation doesn’t go the other way.  OA being expensive doesn’t mean that the comic will be expensive (KJ, Watchmen, etc).

This doesn’t apply to 90s comics due to the high print runs. It amazes me how these 90s books shot up in value. I’m sure they’ll correct but the OA will do well even if the books are worthless.

On 12/23/2021 at 5:58 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Not everyone promotes Kirby, although, he was apparently a really nice guy who Marvel took advantage of. If you have ever seen some of his less rushed pieces, his raw skill was very high, but Kirby made his mark before Adams changed the landscape on page layout and design, as well as his own raw drafting skill. Modern layout and design, including your stuff, began to really get moving in the Bronze Age. The money part doesn’t interest me; price and quality diverge with OA into things like nostalgia. 

I actually own a couple Kirby pieces and acknowledge his huge contributions so not casting shade in any way. The fact I decided to keep my Kirby’s over other 90s art I recently sold just shows my love for them. That said I’ll probably sell them before my nostalgic pages if need be. My point is that collectors should accept that we are all different ages so covet different stories. I purchased OA for nostalgia but also knew the stories I collected were seen by a lot of people so figured they’d possibly hold their value or appreciate a bit but never anticipated todays prices. I was spending thousands of dollars for each page 12 years ago which everyone told me was overpriced but I loved them so much I didn’t listen. I was away for 5 years and just found out this last year how expensive they are. I’ll admit I saw dollar signs and went to the dark side at first but it didn’t matter as I didn’t sell. I’m thinking of selling a few as I now realize I can’t own everything but who knows if I’ll follow thru. Picking pages to sell is the most difficult process and I make excuses for keeping every single one. 

On 12/23/2021 at 1:17 PM, comix4fun said:

You're invited to our SDCC or NYCC or Baltimore dinners if we can ever get them going again. The SDCC ones are range from 5 in a friendly discussion to 20 in an unruly festival reminiscent of a dwarven feast straight off the pages of The Hobbit. 

 

I picture food fights

On 12/23/2021 at 11:17 AM, comix4fun said:

That's almost, word for word, exactly how I started in collecting OA. So, I understand completely. I'd been in comics from childhood and branched out to OA in my early 20's and I gravitated towards Hulk artwork. I had collected that title in comics and the progression seemed natural to artwork that way. I liked the character, I understood him well, I knew a lot of artists worked on the character and it was a fertile ground to collect a lot of different examples, eras, artists. I even had an artwork website (well before CAF existed) just for all my Hulk artwork. Eventually, over those first 7-10 years, other work caught my eye, which led me to the artists who created them, to appreciating the artists, to collecting those artists, etc. My focus kept evolving.

Then I broke up the band, so to speak, on Hulk artwork. A lot of that stuff worked in my art-collector-as-larvae stage but when I looked back on it some of it was, frankly, pretty ugly from an art standpoint. But it was easy to accumulate and not so much curate back in those days $20-100 published pieces everywhere. Towards the end of that "character driven" phase I was picking up pieces because they were Hulk primarily, without a real critical eye to aesthetic or quality, and it led to some "YIKES!" moments looking back through the portfolio.

I am not saying it's not impossible to stick with character-driven collecting but there's a danger there of not taking the quality of the work into account (maybe less so at today's prices which force a more deliberate pace) and I fell into that entirely on some work.
The stakes were much lower then, the late 80's and early 90's weren't a place you could get hurt on artwork purchases, at least not fatally, and even the fugly artwork appreciated as it was coming from a place of de minimis cost. 

It's the kind of progression a lot of my art collecting friends at the time went through. As collectors there's always a new shiny object on the horizon and where you end up as a collector bears almost no resemblance to the place you began. Guy who started as "I love the 80's titles" 20 years ago are now collecting Herriman or Schulz, and dozens of similar shifts. 

These days, though, you're right the cost of entrance to the hobby and these pieces demand a lot more care in decision making. What used to cost the same as a Hot Wheels car now costs the same as an actual car. 

This isn’t true for all collectors though. I started collecting OA for nostalgia and the love of the stories I collected. The art from these stories dried up so I started collecting from other periods and artists. I recently had to make a decision on what I should sell for money I thought I needed. I didn’t touch one page from the stories of my childhood. 

On 12/4/2021 at 7:18 AM, Race said:

Sold to who? Glen Brunswick? Or ”sold” (removed from sale) to make the embarrassment of such a ridiculous ask go away?

There is no one on this board who would dare place Lim in the top 20 comics artists of all time. High priced, poorly drawn OA tied to trendy storylines -- just like this page -- will be the first to crash when the collectibles market gets whacked. I would hate to be the 29k (or 40k, or 55k) bag holder on this in 2 years...

Nostalgia is a powerful thing and these trendy stories were read by millions of collectors. I personally don’t collect this story but can understand why pages are high.

On 12/22/2021 at 9:49 PM, Xatari said:

I don’t personally collect pages from first appearances issues unless the said character is on the page. However, I do understand the rationale coming from recovering Comic collectors.

Since this thread started with Punisher, let’s use that as an example with ASM 129. A 9.8 copy on that book recently sold for $43,200. There are 153 unrestored copies in 9.8 on the CGC census. Conversely there are 19 pages of artwork for this issue, some of which have Punisher, but many do not.

I don’t have a horse in either race, but I would personally rather have an original page from the issue even if Punisher was MIA and  would value any page from that issue are least as high as a 9.8 copy if not higher, especially given there are 8x more 9.8 copies than original pages. 

Again, not the way I personally collect, but I get the rationale. 

Never known collectors to buy for first appearance alone. Most collectors buy  for a combination of nostalgia, art, and historical significance. I can understand buying a first appearance if it happens during a story you grew up reading or if it’s a major character like Superman, Batman, etc. I just don’t understand the small character first appearance thing. But maybe the new comic book guys create a market for first appearances. I certainly focus on nostalgic storylines from my childhood others might not like so who knows. I do know comic book prices have nothing to do with OA as the books of the stuff I collect aren’t worth much due to huge print runs. I’ve never heard of a OA collector reference comic book prices or grades before but maybe enough new comic book collectors enter the market with that mindset to where there’s a new niche there too.

On 12/21/2021 at 4:57 PM, Race said:

Hal, rather than explain what I know, I'd rather explain what it going to happen over the next year. If it is true, well, then you might consider I could be right about how this ends in 2023. By this time next year, we should see:

6,000 on the S&P

Bitcoin at $125,000, and

an inflation rate of 22%.

Just bookmark this and see how it goes.

Bitcoin will be squashed if the S&P hits 6000. Bitcoin is a risky asset and investors will sell. Even gold tanks during recessions. I personally don’t think the market will tank that far. I’m more concerned with the amount of paper Wall Street created with Bitcoin funds. Get ready for a huge short on Bitcoin when our government issues a US crypto dollar.. They did it with gold so why not Bitcoin too. A crypto dollar will be the only way the Fed and our government will take control of high inflation. 

On 11/19/2021 at 5:06 PM, buttock said:

Jeff Jones Idyl went for $38.4k!  Wow.  

That blew my mind as I recall a similar page years back for a fraction of this when I purchased my Frazetta. Jones deff beat out my Frazetta. I’m guessing it’s because it’s published but did extremely well. Or is Jones OA hot?

On 11/19/2021 at 3:09 AM, EXPhysiker said:

Some pages from the Shamus Masterwork collection (Wizard owner) sold 8 years ago at Heritage (late 2013)

Batman Kelly Jones Pinup was $2.390 - now $18.600 (+687%)

Maxx #1/2 Cover was $5.975 - now $24.000 (+302%)

Jim Lee Punisher was $6.573 - now $78.000 (+1.087%)

Happy with the Jones.

I received higher offers privately for the Maxx 1/2 cover, Someone got a steal for peak Kieth Maxx in his MCP style. I’m actually trying to find the buyer as I’d like the opportunity to get it back someday.

I still can’t believe what the Punisher went for but it was a really nice piece. 

My Frazetta watercolor went below what I purchased it for and was surprised.

Azrael did ok

I thought my MCP 2 was a good buy. Congrats to the new owner.

My Knightfall and Maximum Carnage pages were good buys too.

I never intended on selling these and only purchase what I love which made this difficult. I’m sure I have pieces that would have a higher return but 90s OA needs more time to mature. 

High end OA from the original Shamus Modern Masterworks collection at auction today on Heritage.

Tried holding these as long as I could but family comes first.

Vintage promotional Jim Lee PWJ with every character 

Vintage Kelley Jones Knightfall Batman 

Vintage Sam Kieth Maxx 1/2 cover

Vintage Alex Saviuk and Klaus Janson Marvel Comics Presents #2 front and back covers with claws out Wolverine 

Vintage Quesada Azrael piece

Double sided Frank Frazetta watercolor study with ink Frazetta Girk on reverse side 

Bagley Maximum Carnage with Venom vs Carnage

Aparo Batman Knightfall page with Bane

Here’s the link:

https://comics.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=52+793+794+791+1893+792+2088+4294944397+4294966839&type=friend-consignorpreview-notice

Best of luck!

Jason

On 11/14/2021 at 8:33 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

Missed an item I wanted today and the established pattern held fast once again.  And that pattern is-- 

If there's something I want and I remember to log in and bid live, I will be outbid by people willing to spend 3X as much and I'll have completely wasted precious time that I can never get back.

If there's something I want and I FORGET to log in and bid, I will check to see what it went for it and discover that it sold for 1/3 of what I would have bid.  

 

 

That happened to me before and is the worst. Then I found out about phone bidding where Heritage calls you a few lots before. Really is the best way to go although I still try to be at my computer just in case

On 11/12/2021 at 10:43 PM, tth2 said:

Reserve of $240k on the TOS 50 1st Mandarin.

Reserve of $120k on the JIM 93 splash.

Reserve of $150k on the Conan 15 cover.

Why do OA consignors have no cajones?

Do these high reserves ever get met? 
I thought about doing reserves but think most people ignore those lots.