Morgan0714

On 5/12/2017 at 2:50 PM, Mackenzie999 said:

A lot of people, myself included, discovered these boards over deals gone badly. If you have the kind of money where a $34K loss is just, "whatever," then you are a fortunate man. 

That being said, this board is a treasure in many ways. Use it before pulling out your checkbook again.

Good luck!

Agreed! This was a life learning lesson for me for sure! Hindsight is always 20/20! As of now, the trade is all complete. I'm happy with the outcome  and I'm moving on from this. Next stop is original art! I'll be asking for help from you guys in the near future! 

On 5/4/2017 at 5:00 AM, comicwiz said:

It sounds like you have the kind of outlook to allow the art dealer to get the upper hand, and others here have certainly provided reasonable direction to assist you in the matter. I don't have much of anything new to add, except to say that I would ask you to exhaust the option of seeing if you could get originals in exchange, not prints.

If I learned anything, it's to check this site first before buying anything!

A less informed buyer will get himself in a lot of trouble....as you can see in my case.

I agree to this statement full heartedly and learned my lesson the hard way...

Sadly I didn't want to throw good money after bad money on a legal battle. It would very well cost me $50,000 more without a gurantee of a win. This way, I was able to return $34,100 worth of "Bob Kane whatevers" something that I didn't want...for some prints that at least I would enjoy hanging on my walls. Are they worth it? Well...that's another debate for another day. Thank you all for at least informing me of what I didn't have: Original Bob Kane art.  Here are the items I got in return. There is a happy story here...somewhat!

6 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Good luck Morgan!   You seem like a great dude and have taken all of this very well.    We are just sorry to see how its turning out, but its nice to see that you still have enthusiasm for the art after all this.   Best of luck and please feel free to share your purchases once acquired 

Thank you Bronty, Sigh, I'm getting a ACCELERATED crash course in the school of life!

I APPARENTLY got a PHD degree now!

Money can always be made back.....but piece of mind is priceless.......

28 minutes ago, Bird said:

I understand that you say you are happy at this point but I concur with those above. You may also ask yourself why #1 of each of those prints is still available.

Being a business owner myself, I probably have a list of who I sold these to and offered "Hey, sell me your #1 for $1,000 or $2,000 more than you paid for it. Then he in turn will charge me another $1,000 on top of it. So every one made money off of me because I'm stuck with the credit. Not saying that this actually happened....but that's what I would do in this case.

But guess what?

I'm ok with it.....

This is a better alternative than having to go to legal issues and pay for my lawyer's boat fees!. I'll work harder this year to make it.....and let this be a life lesson everytime I walk by these prints in my house and office.

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Fair enough.

Do yourself a favor and run the original art purchases past someone with hobby experience before pulling the trigger?   Alex's originals are in my view no screaming bargain either, and more to the point there is sometimes a wide spread on them between the asking price at source and what the art would achieve at auction.     

 

Understood Bronty! You've been most helpful! This site and everyone here rocks!

15 minutes ago, ParamagicFF said:

I hope you didn't already accept those trades and take them home. I get that you can't take legal action, but you can certainly go to the public.

You are getting completely hosed on prints that are selling for close to what his originals go for.

I hate to see someone who can afford Ross originals getting scammed into prints for the same price.

I appreciate your concern on this. Sadly, my main concern is to live another day,

The way I see it, is had they all been legitimate Kane pieces, I would have been happy with them and lived with the $34,100 investment.

In my mind, the money has already been spent so that's bridge under the water!

It's kind of like the housing market, in Los Angeles, where I live.

I live in a house that anywhere else except maybe New York City would be on sale for only $750,000! In LA, it's 4 times the amount!. It's all relative I suppose!

13 minutes ago, Captain Canuck said:

You can get 1-2 really good Ross paintings for that $37000. As well, the Batmobile sketch would go for $500-$1000 tops on his website. They come out ahead here and will now take those Kane's and sell them to someone else. 

That may be true, but hopefully the potential buyer will do his homework prior to purchase. I hope he/she has enough sense to check this site!

I did my homework too late, I shot first and asked questions later....but there is a happy ending to this story.....I'm getting back something I'm happy with...albeit it may be overpriced or overexagerrated....but at least it's authentic!

Don't worry, I'll be getting Alex Ross original art soon enough! Already in talks with his people for purchase.

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Madness.   Please take Adams advice, a good Facebook campaign might do more to get your money back than a lawsuit.    27k for three prints is not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy (pun intended yes)

13 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

A canvas giclee costs, what, $80 to make, plus the frame? Those prints are worth maybe $1000 max?

Why does this even need to go to court? How about a strongly-worded demand letter from your attorney?

Or how about checking with your credit card company about any buyer's protection on the purchase?

Checked that out too!

Most chargeback requests are honored for 6 months. The rest will need legal initiation for them to investigate it further. Most of these Kane pieces were bought in 2012 and 2013.

2 hours ago, comicartcom said:

so does that mean you aren't getting any cash back & have to take over-priced materials (art & prints) to 'get out'?

 

if so, the dealer is a pathetic excuse for honesty. He should give you back your money & file an insurance claim (if he can) for their loss.

if he can't file for insurance, he should give you back your money & suck it up

I think they should at the very least be entered into the Hall of Shame and be shunned by all.

 

At the moment, they have agreed to a total of $34,100 in trade value. I'm returning the little blue/yellow Batman too!

I have agreed to receive some $30,000 in prints that I've always wanted but didn't have room on the walls for them. Now that I have 7 vacant spots on the walls, I'll have 5 prints that I can hang proudly without worry of their provenance and authenticity. 

I have received in trade:

1.Alex Ross Original Sketch Art Batmobile from Batman 66 comics@ $1,500

2. Alex Ross Original Sketch Art Batman from Batman 66 Comics@ $1,500

3. Alex Ross: The Original Seven Executive Canvas Over-sized Print #1/7 @$7,000

4. Alex Ross: The Original Seven Canvas 1998 #1/100@ $7,000

5. Bat over Gotham: 1998 Canvas #1/100@ $13,000

I still have $4,100USD to play with!

Maybe I can have them try to work out a deal with another dealer for something I like!

Thank you again for all your help!

Your input on this matter has been instrumental in my regained happiness and I'm glad you guys are around to keep everyone honest in our crazy hobby of ours!

On 5/1/2017 at 9:33 AM, F For Fake said:

This whole thread just makes me anxious. Morgan, if you haven't already, get your CASH back, all of it, and run to the hills. Do not deal with these folks anymore. If you want real advise and direction on where to buy some nice Batman original art, these very same boards will steer you in the right direction. Avoid prints, lithographs, posters etc unless they're dirt cheap and you just like the look of them. For the kind of money you're throwing around, you should have some REAL art. Good luck!

Thank you all for your input. I wish I could get all my money back but as a business owner myself, it's very hard to do after all these years. I have consulted an attorney...however the legal costs will be over my original investment of $32,000 from experts that will be needed and depositions. Even with that, the attorney has advised me that it's still a chance we won't win. He joked about saying: "In these cases, only the lawyers really win here....save your money and move on" I consider this a learning lesson for me but at least I will have some prints that may not increase in value much but I will enjoy them and hopefully get buried with them! I'm getting in Alex Ross The Original Sevrn on canvas 1/100 and the oversized Executive canvas print version 1/7. I know some of you fine gents disagree but I rather have genuine prints over having that cloud of doubt and disgust of the Kane pieces. This is sadly a life lesson for me that I've learned the hard way.

This just arrived today as part of the trade: Original Seven Executive print 1/7.

I'll have this buried with me in the grave!

By the way, I found this also from choice Collectobles. It's only 7 inches long and wide. I'm assuming this is also a return for me? 

On 5/1/2017 at 9:33 AM, F For Fake said:

This whole thread just makes me anxious. Morgan, if you haven't already, get your CASH back, all of it, and run to the hills. Do not deal with these folks anymore. If you want real advise and direction on where to buy some nice Batman original art, these very same boards will steer you in the right direction. Avoid prints, lithographs, posters etc unless they're dirt cheap and you just like the look of them. For the kind of money you're throwing around, you should have some REAL art. Good luck!

Thank you everyone! I'm meeting with Ari Goldman this week when they are here for a show close to me in Burbank. I am getting some prints in as a trade that I enjoy...not original art but I'm ok with it. The rest is going to some original art from Alex Ross that I admire. I would love an original painting from Alex Ross but his stuff is around $20,000 now...or is there a cheaper source?

On 4/23/2017 at 9:52 AM, comicartcom said:

I hope you mean "refund" and and thankfully they are doing it right.

On 4/23/2017 at 9:52 AM, comicartcom said:

I hope you mean "refund" and and thankfully they are doing it right.

I'm getting credit back for some original art that they have from Alex Ross that I've wanted... and some money back. I just found another one I'm returning too! 

On 4/20/2017 at 11:28 AM, chrisco37 said:

Agree with everyone else.   If you can return the "Kane's" for a refund, do it yesterday.   Don't trade for prints.  

Another Batman artist I'd add to "the list" of art to look for:   Tim Sale

And, since you said you have TV Show memorabilia, look for art from the series "Batman 66".   It's a more recent series that was done in the style of the old TV Show.  Might be something you like.   I looked for pages recently, but passed as I wanted art that had word balloons as well (most newer art doesn't).  

Here's a link to a bunch of stuff for sale on CAF from the series. 

http://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleSearchResult.asp?PM=1&txtSearch=batman+66'&selOwner=%&TimeSpan=&Order=&PI=36

 

 

Woo! What a great link! Diving in! 

On 4/19/2017 at 7:44 PM, comicartcom said:

I agree

On 4/19/2017 at 8:08 PM, Bronty said:

anybody live close to Morgan?   I get the sense he's a little foggy on originals vs prints and I'd invite him over to show him in person, except for the small matter of 4,000 miles or so.

Thank you for helping out man! At this moment, I'm really thinking hard about what moves me....got my full credit from Choice Collectibles and seeing what kind of original art there is out there to collect that don't have a cloud of suspicion! I'll post what I end up getting! Got itchy fingers now! Looking at some original art from Alex Ross whom I always admired!

20 hours ago, Bronty said:

Morgan, IMO if they will take them back in exchange for originals from established artists, run don't walk to do so.

However, my question is - what are they going to give you in exchange?   You mention alex ross but I see the ross stuff in your room tends to be prints.

Does that mean they'd give you ross prints as opposed to originals in exchange.

My opinion would be that any thing you can get in exchange that's actually original work is preferable.    If they are trading you the "Kanes" for prints, well, its a nice gesture but I'm not sure how you're really ahead.   Prints look neat on the wall and that but their value is only decorative for the most part; IMHO you are paying too much for the prints as well.

Salvage what you can that's original out of an exchange or talk to a lawyer.   

From my POV I'll go back to what I said in the first post on this topic.   I don't think there is any way some of these were done by a professional artist (whether Kane or ghost).

Just my opinion, but if it was my money I wouldn't be forking it over for this stuff.  

If you can get a cash refund take it and run.

He also does have some EP1/25 Alex Ross Batman stuff on canvas. Is this what you mean by an even trade for the canvas version over the nice paper version? Or are you speaking of the "1 out of 1" #3 Alex Ross has on loan at the Norman Rockwell Museum for sale at $20,000 on his website? http://www.alexrossart.com/Alex-Ross-Batman-Green-Hornet-Cover-03-Painting_p_125.html

5 minutes ago, Captain Canuck said:

Wow! Great collection! That colored Kane Batman definitely look like his style. I guess unless someone physically saw Kane draw the piece or was his Ghost and couch vouch for or against it. There is no way to know for certain. There has to be a better and easier solution. 

Exactly! Now you know why I'm going crazy!!!!!!

1 minute ago, Captain Canuck said:

Wow! Great collection! That colored Kane Batman definitely look like his style. I guess unless someone physically saw Kane draw the piece or was his Ghost and couch vouch for or against it. There is no way to know for certain. There has to be a better and easier solution. 

I just don't want to make a mistake and give back all these suspect Bob Kane pieces to later find out "oops, they were Bob Kane pieces afterall.....hence why I'm on the fence...isn't Profiles in History (Invaluable) a really reputable company?

I have bought tons of TV show cast memorabilia from them before... but the general consensus from this forum is that these aren't likely Bob Kane. Correct?

I'm leaning towards just collecting the living Batman artists for now I suppose....

5 hours ago, Bronty said:

Yeah that explains that discrepancy.    What else have you bought from them Morgan if you don't mind me asking?    I can see that faces of batman print was about 2k?

I'm just a Batman fan so I'm not well versed on names and titles. Here are some quick pics around my office and house that I have bought from Choice Collectibles. The owner and I did speak and he is willing to take back the ones I'm not happy with! I just wanted to find out from you knowledgeable fans what your thoughts were on the Bob Kane pieces that my art buddy originally told me he was doubtful about! I ultimately just want to enjoy Batman and not have to worry about authenticity! The more I think about it, I'm better off giving back all the suspect Bob Kane stuff and getting Alex Ross and Jim Lee. Any other Batman artists you guys recommend?

1 hour ago, Crowzilla said:

Certainly Bob didn't do the art on this Joker-puppet litho, so I don't know why anyone would think he did the art on the sketch either

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/batman-the-joker-signed-lithograph-600-c-cee4c888ac

Ah, I see what you are saying.....sigh, maybe I should stick with Jim Lee and Alex Ross stuff...so much less stress!

18 hours ago, Captain Canuck said:

Would explain the different weight in lines. 

So, does that mean it's still a suspect Bob Kane piece or is this one a better version of a ghost artist that sold for $2,500 from Choice collectibles. I spoke to the owner of the company and he's willing to take the ones I got from him back. 

On 4/14/2017 at 9:50 PM, Captain Canuck said:

I'm going out on a limb here, but they are 2 different pictures. You will notice the difference between the 2 when you look at Batmans belt and Robins raised hand. The lines are similiar, but thinner and more deliberate in terms of providing depth and contour on the second image. 

To clarify, the first pic I posted that had a gray background was a print out of the pic they sent me. I couldn't find the texted pic they sent me originally but had a print out of the original on my desk. The text Choice Collectibles originally sent me had the white background and is the same as the one featured on Invaluable.

On 4/14/2017 at 9:31 PM, Unca Ben said:

That piece (or one just like it) was in the Profiles in History Dec 2016 auction.
Mebbe it's your scan, but the linework looks a little heavier in your picture.

 

 

 

Yes, after speaking with Choice Collectibles, they told me that this was the exact one that ended up selling on Invaluable (Profiles in History) for $2,500.00. They offered to sell it me before they sent it to the auction. The original pic I posted was actually an a print out from my PC as I couldn't find the original pic they sent me.

Update:

Was told that these 2 originals came from the same source as mine.

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/bob-kane-signed-original-drawing-of-batman-and-250-c-47f4c2c888

Sold for $6500

and this one

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/bob-kane-signed-original-drawing-of-batman-,-ro-249-c-48f4f68893

Sold for $2,500!

What you guys think?

Profiles in history is legit no? 

On 4/12/2017 at 0:19 PM, comicartcom said:

here's what I would do if I were you

because you bought these all in California and California laws are very liberal with art fraud, I recommend having your lawyer contact both dealers.

agenting some to you as Vintage Animation Gallery did, does not absolve them from any liability and whether they can get their money back from their source is meaningless

whether the galleries knew these were fakes is not important. Chances are, Choice Collectibles sold others also, so they may be in a bind

I think you should be able to get at least a goodly portion of your money back, though any legal actions could potentially drag on for some time.

certainly, I don't believe you shuold give a pass to either of them.

they're big boys also!

 

 

Thank you for the suggestion. I may actually do that! One major red flag that got me thinking something was off was I was offered another Kane piece from Choice Collectibles (the style posted) and I had offered to trade 3 of my current pieces for the one they were selling. When they declined, I was a bit surprised and that got me thinking.....here was the piece they ended up selling to someone else and decline my 3 piece trade.