RockMyAmadeus

Did I miss the point again? I thought the point was to own it. Sarcasm advances the discussion well. Then what is the point? Stealing was defined and generally accepted. It's an ongoing discussion. That's the point. SOT replies, I reply, SOT replies, etc. That's how it works.

Did I miss the point again? I thought the point was to own it. Sarcasm advances the discussion well.

Sigh. Just because I said it was far worse in the olden days does NOT mean I think it is Utopian perfection now, or that I don't see the issues that could come up. There will ALWAYS be fraud on eBay, SOT, ALWAYS. The point isn't that there won't be, but to both minimize it AND avoid the trap of justifying oneself into committing it, because that justification comes easily. Will this new program increase the fraud on any noticeable level? No. The program you're talking about is already in place for many sellers. And the VAST majority of buyers on eBay are buying because...watch me now...they WANT THE ITEM. So, yes, you'll maybe have to deal with a few bad apples who create problems. Ok, so? Comes with the territory. I just had someone return a slab because they didn't like CGC's grade. Not me, not anything I did. They cost me money, because they didn't agree with CGC's grade (which, by the way, was and remains perfectly fine. The guy didn't like two spine tics, one with a hint of CB, the other non-CB, perfectly acceptable in 9.8) It happens. The option you have is to not use eBay. You have plenty of venues you can choose, and if you think eBay is beyond your ability to use without compromise, don't use it. The days of eBay being the only option, especially for someone with your resources, are over. And, have you considered that because of these policies, eBay is actually a BETTER place to sell because of the assurances buyers have that they won't get screwed over? That they are willing to PAY MORE than they otherwise would, that sellers GET MORE MONEY because buyers are relatively assured they won't get defrauded? I doubt it. PS. If slabs are broken, that's what insurance is for. If the buyer wants to commit insurance fraud....that's on them, and they won't be able to do it for very long without the Postal Inspectors/Insurance Adjustors finding out.

That's ok, no one else did, either.

Congratulations! If that's true, you were very, very lucky. How many transactions did you have on eBay from 1998-2003? I had thousands. And why do you believe that? Paypal ALLEVIATED a lot of the fraud, because now people weren't sending checks/MOs through the mail, just hoping that the other end would send what they promised, and that it would actually BE in the condition they claimed it was. I once paid $250 for a Cerebus #1...turned out to be the counterfeit, which was NOT worth $250 at the time. Because of Paypal, I filed a chargeback and GOT MY MONEY BACK, whereas, if I had sent a check/MO, I would have been SOL. The seller was a blatant thief, who didn't give a flat damn that he sold the counterfeit. "Not my problem" he said. "Watch this", I said. And, for that, I am accused of "ripping off sellers on eBay." Doubt it. But, we shall see indeed.

No, of course not. But does that mean they shouldn't? So have you? I think we all assuming from your high horse moral posts that you must account for every dollar right? That you characterize someone who says "hey...let's not steal from somebody, or at the very least, if you are going to steal, call it what it is, and don't be a hypocrite about it" as "high horse moral posts" just shows how little you care. My standards aren't high. Far from it. It's just that your standards are so low, mine appear high. And you complain when someone even SUGGESTS that we all do the right thing. And yes, SOT, I account for every dollar, as much as I possibly can. And who is "we"? Do you have multiple people in your head? If not, who are you speaking for? Was there a board spokesman election I missed? If not, speak for yourself, and let everyone else speak for themselves. Who is SOT? That would be "Spiderman-on-Tilt", which was your former board name. Pay attention: everyone is immoral. Everyone has done wrong things. I have, you have, we all have. It's not about the acts, so much as the ATTITUDE and MOTIVATION. Have I accepted Paypal personal for items, and justified it? Of course I have. Do I do it any longer? No, not in a long, long time. Does that make me better than anyone? Of course not. Does that mean I can't say "hey, folks, we ought not to be doing this?" No. How will anyone know, if no one says anything? Why not make it 100%? You could, if you wanted to. You asked someone, just a week or so ago, for Paypal personal to pay for something (whether you sold it or not isn't relevant.) I get sent Personal payment on a regular basis for goods and services. As my customers will attest, I refund them and ask them to re-send the regular way. Again, does that make me better than anyone? No. But it's the right thing to do, so why not do it?

Yes. Was that not a "serious" question? The USPS doesn't provide these materials for free so that you can use them in non-Priority packages. You really ought to know these things by now. It's not as if you just got into the comics business a month ago. You think I don't know. Hence the condescending I also believe in athletic use of steroids so my team can always win. No, I don't think you don't know. I think you don't care. There's a difference. Yes I obviously know they don't like it when you use Priority Mail boxes to pack 1st class or media mail package. They can also kiss my arse for all the work I save them from having pre-paid slips all year round. I guess I like to live on the edge. And it is this open, blatant contempt for the rights of others that is the issue. "I don't give a damn about stealing from anybody, if *I* feel it's justified!" You can be bought, SOT. And that's really the problem. Is it THAT big a deal if you use Priority mail supplies for non-Priority mail? No, in the grand scheme of things, it's not. But...it does mean that you compromise, that you justify, and if you're unfaithful in the little things...you will be unfaithful in the big things. The degree is irrelevant, compromise is compromise. You can be bought. You have a price. I am not condemning or judging you...I'm trying to appeal to your reason. And, at the very least, trying to say "if you don't care, fine, you don't care. But don't complain if someone does it to you."

No, of course not. But does that mean they shouldn't? So have you? I think we all assuming from your high horse moral posts that you must account for every dollar right? That you characterize someone who says "hey...let's not steal from somebody, or at the very least, if you are going to steal, call it what it is, and don't be a hypocrite about it" as "high horse moral posts" just shows how little you care. My standards aren't high. Far from it. It's just that your standards are so low, mine appear high. And you complain when someone even SUGGESTS that we all do the right thing. And yes, SOT, I account for every dollar, as much as I possibly can. And who is "we"? Do you have multiple people in your head? If not, who are you speaking for? Was there a board spokesman election I missed? If not, speak for yourself, and let everyone else speak for themselves.

I don't think you'll ever here back from him. I don't anyone can here back from anyone, ever.

No, of course not. But does that mean they shouldn't?

Well naturally. Stealing from Paypal is okay. Especially if it's rationalized by "helping out a boardie" And to everyone, RMA is right about Paypal personal. You may not like that, you may not care but it is stealing from Paypal. That's indisputable. No different than those insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who used to charge outrageous shipping charges on ebay to avoid the fees. eBay rips me off every time when I charge correctly for shipping. I have to pay them 10% so I lose money. Jeffro is talking about the people who would charge $1 for a $500 item, and $499 for "shipping" (I tried this as well, 10-12 years ago or so, because I was stupid), so that they would only pay eBay on the $1, and not the "shipping." What does "charge correctly" mean? Charge the exact amount? You don't have to do that. eBay certainly doesn't expect you to. Those terms are stated upfront. You CHOOSE to accept them when you choose to use eBay. No one is forcing you to use eBay. If you can't make it work, that isn't really eBay's problem. But they aren't "ripping you off", except in a philosophical way (and I agree with you; but, see above.) I don't like the 10% charge on shipping...but that just means I have to build that cost back into the price, or the cost. On most items, I charge $9 for flat rate Priority envelope shipping. That just about covers the costs. Some buyers whine, but most don't. PS. Your "$1625 by PP Personal" comment is the latest catalyst for this conversation. Oh you mean on that sales transaction that never happened or I got money from. Gotcha. What about all the PMs sellers get when buyers offer to pay PP personal in their own verbiage? Are they bad people as well? Yes, let's have contempt for doing the right thing by making light of the situation and referring to people as "bad people." "Those bad, naughty people. Shame on them!" Everyone is bad. That doesn't mean you can't, or shouldn't, talk about doing the right thing. If you're using Paypal personal to pay for something, you are participating in stealing from Paypal. If you want to steal from Paypal, man up and own it. But don't be so shocked when people say something about it, or point out the hypocrisy of carefully maintaining a PL/HOS, while turning a blind eye to other theft, simply because Paypal doesn't come here and nominate people for the PL. And (and I can't believe I'm saying this to a grown man in his 30's)...just because "everyone else" does it, doesn't mean it's ok for you to do.

Yes. Was that not a "serious" question? The USPS doesn't provide these materials for free so that you can use them in non-Priority packages. You really ought to know these things by now. It's not as if you just got into the comics business a month ago. You think I don't know. Hence the condescending I also believe in athletic use of steroids so my team can always win. No, I don't think you don't know. I think you don't care. There's a difference.

Ebay for sellers is now at an all time high for fraud buyers. Their new forced return process with the now forced seller paying for buyers returns will open up a new wave of fun for fraud for sellers on eBay. That's just your perception. Fraud on eBay was substantially higher in the late 90's/early 2000's, and....you had no way to deal with it. You had to contact eBay through e-mail, and THEY chose whether they would respond or not, and almost always they did not. Yes, now you have to talk to the Philippines, but at least you get to talk to somebody who MIGHT do something, and if you're persistent, you can get to someone who will help. Back in 2000, if you had a problem, you couldn't call ANYONE. eBay purposely and meticulously shielded themselves from dealing with complaints, and if someone stole your money, or sent you back a different item or empty box (after all...chargebacks still existed), or just said "this book isn't in the condition stated, I want some money back"...whether it was legitimate or not (and sometimes it was....I dealt with overgraded comics on almost a daily basis, it was so bad for everyone.) They didn't have any contact numbers. They DID have their office number, which you could manage to track down if you were persistent....but then you got a secretary who had no idea how to help you, and you would spend hours and hours and hours waiting for someone that might be able to help you. It was awful. Just awful. The stories I could tell you. I "bought" a Primer #2/Grendel #1-3 signed by Wagner for $180. Sent the MO to Texas...never got anything. Gone. Nothing to do about it. eBay didn't care, and didn't even respond to my e-mails. This was in 1999. Some criminal rings would carefully cultivate a customer base over a year or two....selling AND DELIVERING perfectly good merchandise, building up a stellar account...and they they'd strike, and net $250,000 or more in a single bout of fraudulent sales, and then disappear to the Cayman's....and there was nothing anyone would do. It was the Wild, Wild West. It's far, far better than it was. Far better. No, eBay is not at ALL at an "all time high for fraud buyers."

Yes. Was that not a "serious" question? The USPS doesn't provide these materials for free so that you can use them in non-Priority packages. You really ought to know these things by now. It's not as if you just got into the comics business a month ago.

Well naturally. Stealing from Paypal is okay. Especially if it's rationalized by "helping out a boardie" And to everyone, RMA is right about Paypal personal. You may not like that, you may not care but it is stealing from Paypal. That's indisputable. No different than those insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who used to charge outrageous shipping charges on ebay to avoid the fees. eBay rips me off every time when I charge correctly for shipping. I have to pay them 10% so I lose money. Jeffro is talking about the people who would charge $1 for a $500 item, and $499 for "shipping" (I tried this as well, 10-12 years ago or so, because I was stupid), so that they would only pay eBay on the $1, and not the "shipping." What does "charge correctly" mean? Charge the exact amount? You don't have to do that. eBay certainly doesn't expect you to. Those terms are stated upfront. You CHOOSE to accept them when you choose to use eBay. No one is forcing you to use eBay. If you can't make it work, that isn't really eBay's problem. But they aren't "ripping you off", except in a philosophical way (and I agree with you; but, see above.) I don't like the 10% charge on shipping...but that just means I have to build that cost back into the price, or the cost. On most items, I charge $9 for flat rate Priority envelope shipping. That just about covers the costs. Some buyers whine, but most don't. PS. Your "$1625 by PP Personal" comment is the latest catalyst for this conversation.

If someone is paying the fees, then no. That's the point: that someone is paying the fees. They're not trying to make it complex. If I'm buying from someone selling me comics stuff, they pay the fee. Cost of doing business. If I'm buying merchandise from a personal friend...I'll occasionally add enough to cover the fee for them. If I'm sending someone an actual gift or donation, or someone is paying me back for cash I already laid out (say, for home repairs of a family member's house)....Personal, no fee. That's what it's for. So you paypal personal by CC.......But it is still against paypal policy right or is it only about the money that matters? As Crassus said, if you use your credit card to fund anything, the fee is charged. Generally, the sender determines who pays this fee. I do not use my credit card for Personal payments; that would defeat the purpose of the Personal payment. Personal payments only have the fee waived if they are funded by your balance or your bank account. Personal payments aren't for purchases, whether you use a credit card to fund it or not. You can use your credit card for a personal payment....but it doesn't make much sense, AND....since it operates like a cash advance, your CC company may charge you a cash advance fee, on top of everything else. As for what you're asking, you're going to have to clarify. If you are paying with PayPal funds weren't those funds already taxed by PayPal (unless it was a personal payment that is). Seems silly to pay another fee to use money that already had a fee levied on it. That is incorrect. These aren't taxes we're discussing. If you received money for merchandise, you paid Paypal their fee. You used their services, and you pay for that. If you initiate another transaction, then, it's a separate transaction, and you're using the service again, and the recipient pays the fee. That's how it works. Just like the rides at the Boardwalk, you pay each time you get on the ride. There are no "freebies" here.

What else did He say, afterwards....?

There you go again.

If someone is paying the fees, then no. That's the point: that someone is paying the fees. They're not trying to make it complex. If I'm buying from someone selling me comics stuff, they pay the fee. Cost of doing business. If I'm buying merchandise from a personal friend...I'll occasionally add enough to cover the fee for them. If I'm sending someone an actual gift or donation, or someone is paying me back for cash I already laid out (say, for home repairs of a family member's house)....Personal, no fee. That's what it's for. So you paypal personal by CC.......But it is still against paypal policy right or is it only about the money that matters? As Crassus said, if you use your credit card to fund anything, the fee is charged. Generally, the sender determines who pays this fee. I do not use my credit card for Personal payments; that would defeat the purpose of the Personal payment. Personal payments only have the fee waived if they are funded by your balance or your bank account. Personal payments aren't for purchases, whether you use a credit card to fund it or not. You can use your credit card for a personal payment....but it doesn't make much sense, AND....since it operates like a cash advance, your CC company may charge you a cash advance fee, on top of everything else. As for what you're asking, you're going to have to clarify.

If someone is paying the fees, then no. That's the point: that someone is paying the fees. They're not trying to make it complex. If I'm buying from someone selling me comics stuff, they pay the fee. Cost of doing business. If I'm buying merchandise from a personal friend...I'll occasionally add enough to cover the fee for them. If I'm sending someone an actual gift or donation, or someone is paying me back for cash I already laid out (say, for home repairs of a family member's house)....Personal, no fee. That's what it's for.

Interesting question. Like many, I use the double box method because those priority boxes are pretty damn thin. I don't think it's a problem. I haven't seen a rule that prohibits it...just looked at the USPS guide again. All it says is "Select Priority Mail Express and Priority Mail boxes are available free at the Post Office for items sent using either of these services." I interpret this, as written, to mean that all priority mail shipping supplies are fair game and can be used in any quantity/configuration, as long as you actually mail the item using that service. It doesn't say otherwise. If they wanted to impose a rule that you can only use one box per shipped package, they could certainly do so. The fact that they haven't said so to me means that it's acceptable to use multiple boxes, as long as you are using that service. In contrast, the PayPal terms of service are very clear: 4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. And, for those who want to try and wriggle out of that by saying "yes, it says the seller can't ASK...but it doesn't say the buyer can't PAY that way of their own volition!"....there's this: 16. Definitions: "Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill." Pertinent phrase: "WITHOUT A PURCHASE." For the slow among us, that means "you're not BUYING or SELLING something." And, on top of that, it also says "between two individuals (not to or from a business)"...so that automatically excludes all business accounts even without a purchase. Some have tried to "argue" that they are merely "waiving" the "insurance" that Paypal provides in the form of "buyer protection", which is beyond completely and utterly ridiculous. 1. Paypal isn't IN the INSURANCE business, they are in the SERVICE business. They provide a service, and charge a fee for that. They are not "selling insurance." That "buyer protection" is part OF the service is great, but that's not what they are charging for. They are charging for the convenience of passing your money to the merchant (that is, whoever is SELLING YOU SOMETHING) so you don't have to bother with more complex methods of money transfer. 2. Trying to unilaterally "opt out" of paying this so-called "insurance premium" without the consent of the other party...that is, Paypal, would get you laughed out of court, if not worse. You can't just decide you won't pay for someone's services by trying to redefine what it is selling, when A. they have specifically said they require purchases to incur the fee, and B. you aren't allowed to make that decision by yourself. These people advocating using Paypal without paying for their services...what would they do if someone did that to them? If they were a lawyer, they'd probably sue them. Can you imagine, someone using their argument against them in court...? "Well, your honor, I don't have to pay my divorce lawyer, because I have decided that he was trying to sell me marriage advice, and as I wasn't interested in that kind of service, I decided to "waive" his fee. Without consulting him first, of course. Oh, yes, my divorce went through just fine." It quite obviously falls apart.

Here's what the USPS says: "Priority Mail packaging provided by the USPS must be used only for Priority Mail. Regardless of how the packaging is reconfigured or how markings may be obliterated, any matter mailed in USPS-produced Priority Mail packaging is charged the appropriate Priority Mail price." DMM 125.1.1 Which means that you can use Priority mail supplies any way you see fit, including double boxes, tape, stickers, labels, etc., so long as you are paying the Priority Mail rate for that package. Extra boxes add weight, so there's that concern. It doesn't address recycling, but the regulation does cover the use of Priority mail supplies for Non-Priority mail packages: you can't. So, using the free supplies in Media Mail or First Class mail is a no go.

I *almost* said $8 million, but thought that was just too impossibly low. Looks like I should have gone with my gut!