CollectingFool

I never got to meet the silver age greats who's art I admired growing up but I did have the good fortune to be able to connect with Alex Toth before he passed. At the time I was collecting Zatanna sketches and he did this one for me. I've gotten a lot of sketches and commissions over the years of varying quality but this one is special to me.

I am not defending these practices at all. Just here to say that if you think Rich and Steve are the only ones that have done this type of thing you are very naive.

Damn, you're too quick. I realized my mistake and went back to delete my comment but someone already responded.

Funny you would list Bolland Judge Dredd and not Bolland Wonder Woman. There are definitely WW covers that shatter the $20K barrier.

I love prelims, specifically cover prelims. Some are better than others though IMO:

Early Marvel and DC cover prelims are really cool. The ones on the official Marvel paper that were used by a layout artist to show the penciler what they want or for the editor to approve

Some more current artist have some great prelims out there:

Brian Bolland

Adam Hughes

Frank Cho (Liberty Meadows in particular)

If you're lucky you can find a one that's well finished and get a nice example. They are much harder to come by now but they are still out there.

I think you misunderstood my analogy. Gene making certain buying choices doesn't make the market move just as a canary in a coalmine doesn't make methane or carbon dioxide present in the mine. It simply acts as an indicator of certain forces.

I understood exactly what you meant. There are plenty of investors that follow Buffett's moves for the same reason. Although other than certain buyer's purchases, I'd like to know an example or two of "forces" in this hobby you're referring to.

I've met Gene and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think there's a bit of hero worship here just because he has the ability to spend money.

"Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two."

I didn't know Gene was the Warren Buffett of illustration and comic art. Time to sell Berkshire-Hathaway and buy WD pages! It baffles me how people insist on treating funny pictures like they're blue chip investments. IMO the market rises and falls on the actions of maybe 15 - 20 people who control a lot of the supply. For the one-off super rare high-end stuff, every sale is unique and can't be predicted with certainty. That was true a few years ago and I think it's still true now.

Why 30 years later does Klaus suddenly remember things differently? or if he knew right away, why would he wait 30 years to start correcting people?

Because he has no pages left? Or because by now anyone that bought one from him at "Miller" prices doesn't have it anymore or wouldn't care?

Just guessing.

when was the last time you saw a piece either on ebay or a CAF Classified gallery (Dealers not included... though even then) and you thought, "OMG, I can't believe that is for sale...SOLD!!!"

Five years. Maybe six.

That's a beautiful Krazy Kat.

I'm still waiting for someone to define "QUALITY" for me.

Quality is something someone else thinks will go up in value.

The 10 points of advice given are perfect for those that view the hobby as a place to park their money and are looking for a good return in the future. It treats comic OA like a commodity and just slightly different from a stock certificate. I think it's exactly what most people entering the hobby today are looking for.

To me, they are all alien concepts.

When i was a kid, i was a huge Kelley Jones fan

Does this line make anyone else feel incredibly old?

Yes, it's now (conveniently) mentioned that no-one seemed to object to Lichtenstein's methods at time he was . . . creating (?) those comic-book panels . . . but it's perhaps (even more conveniently) forgotten that we didn't have a network of comic-book experts on hand with internet facilities, at that moment in time, to quickly nip this in the bud (as was the case with the recent attempts to plagiarize Bolland).

Funny thing is even with the current "network of comic-book experts" around today it was Bolland himself that discovered it. Scroll down to the entry of 5/18/2010

http://www.brianbolland.net/news.html

Pieces sold before the gallery show, and then were sold again at the gallery show with pieces trading hands amongst many of the same people according to written accounts of the time.

 

It's not the artwork, it's the marketing of the artwork and what was used and what was excluded from use in the selling of the artwork and the creating of the market for his artwork.

 

Why would anyone trust the word of someone who is trying to make something on the deal?

Paraphrase this a little and it could be said about a lot of comic art these days.

I had a long response written and trashed it. It's a waste of time, we'll never see eye to eye. I understand your point, just really don't agree. No need for me to keep rehashing the same point looking for different ways to word it.

He took something throwaway, forced society to look at it with new eyes, and made people think differently about it!

I am not an artist but for me it's statements like this that make me automatically want to attack "Lichty's" art. You just said you couldn't understand how artists don't "get it". Well, as an artist, how can you call someone else's work throw away? IMO most pop art is not great or even good art. It's 99% hype. It was a novel idea and had one or two examples been created to make a point it would have been an interesting footnote. I'm sure most people here that object to the adulation and millions heaped upon Lichty wouldn't be as upset if the community that embraces him wasn't so dismissive of the source material.

How would the art world react to a photographer going to an artist's show (someone the art world elite embraces), photographing the artwork (in a specialized, artistic style) then published the prints? Yes, they are visually different but obviously derived from someone else's work. Would the gallery be happy about it? Would the artist be? How would fans of the artist react if the photographer said "the source material was throw away, I'm the real artist by forcing society to see it with new eyes."

This is a circular argument that will never end. I wanted to avoid contributing to the thread but I found it... funny?... to see an artist calling out other artists for not getting Lichty in one breath and calling comic artist's work "throw away" with another.

This is still my favorite Lichtenstein news articles of all time:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100507/0231219332.shtml

And for those that didn't feel like reading, this is the best part of the article for me, the link to the side by side comparisons.

http://davidbarsalou.homestead.com/LICHTENSTEINPROJECT.html

I think that sometimes in art (whether fine or comic, neither has a monopoly on this) a sort of reverse logic is used to substantiate the worth of something that is priced at high levels. "Well of course its beautiful, do you know how much its worth?"

Here's another good example:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/09/rothkos-orange-red-yellow-nets-record-86-9-million-at-auction/

" I collect comics and that goat -er Lichten "

I hate bumper stickers but I may have to get this one made.

Sounds like you would need to pass a litmus test in the finer points in "art" to participate in this very exclusive conversation. This isn’t a meeting of the board of the Met, its talk about "comic book art" for goodness sakes - or "non-art", since, as you mentioned, it’s not really art.

My response was to the line "I wish there was a forum where we could have intelligent debates about the art itself". To participate in the "exclusive conversation" as you put it, one would need to be able to have a discussion without being offended, know what it is they actually appreciate about the art itself without emotional attachment and be able to articulate it. In my experience on public forums these discussions don't last long before it becoming about values, nostalgia or some troll crashes it. If you've had a different experience online then I'm glad for you. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I wish there was a forum where we could have intelligent debates about the art itself, because most of what passes for public discourse in the hobby is closer to cheerleading than anything else. I know most people, including myself, are somewhat reluctant to say anything that might even remotely be construed as critical/negative, for fear of ostracism and reprisal. While I think there is some benefit to that, I think it has also completely stymied the development of critical analysis in the OA world, which is a shame.

OK, if you want to get into it, here are the reasons why I feel it isn't possible to have these types of discussions for a prolonged period of time:

1. To have an intelligent discussion with a group of people would require an intelligent group. While many of the people in the hobby are more than capable of having an intelligent discussion you have the handful that jump in with their attacks and one-liners that completely miss the point and that usually winds up derailing the discussion.

2. There is too much emotion in the hobby. The main reason most people get into the hobby to begin with is because the artwork resonates with them. It's not easy to objectively listen to someone's point when emotionally you feel they are attacking something you love.

3. For the most part, this stuff isn't art. The quality of the line work and composition is compromised by rushed deadlines, heavy handed editors and the need to sell the story. Looked at as objects of art, most comic art is mediocre at best.

4. Lots of idol worship in this hobby for artists would prevent an honest discussion of certain art. Even worse, lots of idol worship of collectors/dealers just because they have the ability to spend money. Many collectors seem to assume these people have taste just because of how much they were willing to spend and won't voice a contrary opinion.

5. Too many followers. A lot of the collectors I know don't "buy what they like", they buy what they perceive is what they should like, adding items to their "checklist" of desired art based on what they see others put in their collections (and the praise those pieces get from other collectors). How can these collectors participate in the types of analytical critical discussions you're describing when they really don't even know why they supposedly like the art they're buying.

After many years of seeing these types of discussions begin, get derailed and degrade into name calling and people choosing sides I don't hold out much hope. There was a time back when comicart-l was relatively young that great discussions could go on for a while. Members like Jeff Jones could always be counted on to chime in with a real critique or anecdote. Discussions would get heated but it would still be civil. Of course the group was only about 100 people or so. Don't think we'll be seeing anything like that again.

It's a shame for so many wonderful pieces to be sitting in a binder in one's closet.

There are those for whom this hobby is a passing fad and there are those for whom it is an obsession. What you said may seem perfectly rational to you but most of the collectors I know are FAR from perfectly rational when it comes to collecting comic art. I know that if I wanted to frame everything I have (or want) I could never afford a house big enough. Probably would go broke on frames alone!

Manage to get a few new pieces unexpectedly so far this year. Had a trade fall in my lap and found some ad pieces form the early 1900s at a flea market. I'm putting the two most recognizable pieces here but the others are on my CAF and Website if you care to take a look.

If its not on comicartfans.com then you may be out of luck.

I know it's been a while since we've discussed the "old school" hard core collector mentality vs the newer crop of collectors but this statement highlights one of the main differences. You can find anything if you really want to. CAF and eBay and Heritage have made being a lazy collector easy. I'm lazy too and use these tools a lot. That's just what they are to me though, tools. If you really want something you have to be determined and creative in your search. Example:

I never really had what I consider a "grail". I love too many things and no one piece stood out. Still, I made it a point to try to figure out what one piece stood out in my memory the most as a kid and go after that. That was DC Comics Presents #24 (Superman/Deadman). I decided I wanted the cover. I never had comics as a kid and I remember my dad getting me this one to read on an airplane. After reading this I started reading other DC titles and got on the Perez New Teen Titans bandwagon and it was all downhill from there for my allowance.

So, I started my search and amazingly enough I couldn't find a single person that had ever seen it much less had an inkling where it might be. I spoke to the artists, the artists reps at the time, people at DC, every 70s and 80s collector I could find as well as every forum I knew of. Nothing. It took over 13 years but I finally saw a picture of the bottom right corner of the cover in the background of a picture from a German comic book convention with a Superman theme. I tracked down the show promoter, worked with him to figure out the dealer based on the position of the different tables and found the owner was a comic book dealer in Austria. Wrangled a phone number (and interpreter) and spoke to the owner. In the end he was happy with the cover and wouldn't sell it. He would however TRADE it for only ONE cover. An Ernie Chan Batman cover that once again, no one has seen since it was created. Maybe in another 13 years I'll find that and finish my trade.

Needless to say if I adopted the "If its not on comicartfans.com then you may be out of luck" mentality I never would have found it. Also, I would have never uncovered a lot of the art I currently have (including most recently my KK Sunday) and I'd pay way more than I normally do. I know many other collectors that feel the same way.