Kevlar568

Hello all,

I have two CGC signature series Batman books signed by David Mazzucchelli - Batman #405 9.4 and Batman #406 9.2, both signed in 2007. I bought these at a collectibles/pawn store several years ago, and in my research I haven’t been able to find any other Mazzucchelli signed CGC books. It seems that he only did a few signings with CGC in the mid-2000’s. I have a chance this summer to potentially add Frank Miller’s signature to these books - I have gotten Miller to sign some of my daredevil books in the past. Do you guys think I should attempt to add Miller‘s signature to these? Or leave them as is? Will Mazzucchelli ever do another CGC signing? Does anyone else on the boards have Mazzucchelli signature series books? Anyways, Cheers 🤟

3 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

Hold your horses!   You did not understand what I wrote, and consequently wrote an irrelevant retort.  But I forgive you.  Anyway, unlike the books I listed (AF15, IH1, SC4, FF1, JIM83, etc), which introduced a character or group that remained unchanged in its membership or identity over time, the X-Men is a fluid concept/team whose members change over time.   You love Spidey, you will always be hooked on AF15.   You like Hulk, IH#1 is your book.  You dig Fantastic Four, then FF#1 is your bible.  But the X-Men?   Like I thought I had already explained clearly, it depends on whether you are new school and relate to new members (so GSXM1 and XM94 is your thing) or old school, in which case X-Men #1 is your thing.  This is what X-Men fans have explained consistently over the years.  Don't shoot the messenger (or twist what he says!), please.  

Ah I see! I misunderstood your point then. My apologies. You are saying that the hierarchy of the SA Marvel keys is primarily based on the prestige/popularity of the specific character/concept. Am I getting that right? If not please clarify. 
 

So if you love Spider-Man, AF15 is THE book. If you love Nightcrawler, GSX1 is THE book. if you love the X-Men team? It depends on which team is more important to you. I think I get it. Me personally I love the first team characters, Prof X and Cyclops and Jean and Beast (meh on Angel and Iceman - sorry! Lol) and I love Magneto. But I also place more importance and legacy/prestige on X1 being the FIRST - the first mutants, the first concept of humans vs mutant-kind, the first X-team. Obviously in terms of story/writing and art I would take the new GSX1/uncanny run, but I also love Kirby and his early SA stuff is charming. 

5 hours ago, Pantodude said:

The X-Men, although consistently popular, were until recently undervalued.  But that doesn't mean it should  join the podium of SA keys by displacing the other books already there.   As another poster commented in another thread, that was because more people (read X-Men fans) wanted GSX 1 and the new team.   

This is why X-Men#1 is not spun from the same special cloth as AF15, IH#1, FF1, JIM83, TTA27, TOS39, ST110, Showcase4, and even Action Comics 1 and Detective Comics 27 (put aside the obvious difference of Golden Age stuff--my point is broader than that).  Unlike X-Men #1, which is not the fav book of many an X-Men fan (who prefer GSXM1 of X-Men94 for the new group), all those other books are the genesis of the specific mega-key SUPERHERO characters we all still love today.   Spidey is Spidey.  Hulk is Hulk.  Thor is Thor.  And the group that is known as FF are the same four folks they have always been.  The X-men who people love?....well...that depends on whether you are talking about old school or new school X-Men fans.  This is why X-Men#1 was not valued as highly as the other books until quite recently, and whatever happened the last year cannot possibly warrant the re-writing of history.  Let me repeat that....X-Men fans themselves did not rate X-Men#1 as highly as the other top seven SA keys and even preferred Bronze X-Men keys (like GSXM1 and XM94) over it.   Let that sink in.     

Regardless, X-Men#1 is the start of a team and the first appearance of specific non-mega-key superheroes, and one badass villain, Magneto.   Magneto is the most important character introduced in X-Men #1, from what I gather.   We can all agree that Magneto, like Dr. Doom, has never been on a par with Spidey, Hulk, Thor, Antman, Dr. Strange, and Flash (although that's DC, of course), etc.   So this is really simple.  Any mega-key superhero (take your pick of Spidey, Hulk, Thor, Flash, etc) > Dr. Doom, and Dr. Doom is indisputably > Magneto in the Marvel world.  Therefore, sanity demands that AF15, IH1, FF1, SC4, and JIM83 remain ranked above X-Men#1.  If there is any movement up for X-Men#1, perhaps an argument can be made for overtaking BB28, but that's it.  Flavor of the day does not a rewriting of history make.  

All that said, I own a bunch of this stuff, including X-Men #1, and am fond of all of the above books.  But we shouldn't mischaracterize the significance of these books.  

Fair enough! Everyone has a preference and unique opinion towards these things I’m sure - one thing I will say is that I think it’s disingenuous to say that X-men 1 is not spun from the same “magic cloth” despite having the same creators and being released by the same company in the same time period, as well as being much more successful as a franchise than all other Marvels except maybe Spider-Man. It also seems strange to downplay Professor X/ Charles Xavier as a “non-mega-key superhero”, the founder of the X-men and one of the most popular and recognizable Marvel heroes, appearing in  (checks google) 12 mainstream blockbuster Hollywood films in the last 20 years. I was going to type more about prof X but honestly his rep as a character speaks for itself - he is a mega key Marvel character. Another so called “non-mega-key superhero” who’s first appearance is in X-men #1: Marvel Girl - aka Jean Grey- aka the Phoenix/the Dark Phoenix and the mother of Cable(might be a clone of her?). Jean Grey is consistently ranked as one of the greatest superheroes of all time as well as a top 10 Marvel VILLAIN of all time as the Dark Phoenix. Again I think it’s disingenuous to call her a non-mega key Marvel character considering she is probably one of the most popular female Marvel heroes. 
 

I also disagree with X-men being “flavour of the day” - I think the franchise dominance of the last 40 years (the legendary and top-selling Cockrum/Claremont/Byrne run/s, X-men #1 (1991) Guinness World Record best selling comic, a blockbuster film featuring the X-men/mutant characters released by Hollywood every 1.6 years since the year 2000, Logan, Deadpool, and Deadpool 2 peaking at #1 and #3 for highest earning R-rated films of ALL TIME, DP2 and Logan both featuring professor X and mutant characters) I could go on... 

22 minutes ago, speedcake said:

If I had to choose one more Silver Age mega key to go after now that I have my X-Men #1, it'd be Hulk #1 hands down. 

Nice! I would love to get a low grade Fantastic Four #1 or #5 as my next mega key 

On 3/21/2021 at 10:51 PM, Pantodude said:

Someone has to set the record straight, so here goes.  Only a long-ish post will do this  topic justice.  I own both IH#1 and X-Men#1, so this is just about setting the record straight.  IH#1 is not just about Hulk  the character.  The whole issue oozes with special stuff.  

As already noted, IH#1 is one of those special, early SA keys that lay the foundation for Marvel (even predates AF15).  So IH#1 has already cemented its place on the Mount Rushmore of Marvel.  Let’s get into why IH#1 is arguably the most legendary debut of all time, and perenially second only to AF#15 on Overstreet’s top 5 Silver Age books of all time.  I refer to X-Men #1 below (a great book, to be sure) because some folks have gotten a bit carried away with it (ehem Kevlar568), and balance must be restored to our little universe here.  AF#15, IH#1, and FF#1 are the top three in any order you want.  No other book belongs in that Holy Trinity, and here's why. 

As for the issue itself, like X-Men #1, IH#1 has multiple important first appearances, contrary to what was suggested above.  It includes the first appearance of two Marvel heavyweights, the Hulk and Dr. Banner.  Yes, they are indeed separate characters, and Marvel has succeeded in maintaining their individuality both in the books and the MCU.  

IH#1 is also the first appearance of Rick Jones, who later becomes the super-hero A-Bomb, and General (aka Thunderbolt) Ross, who later becomes the Red Hulk, and Betty Ross, who later becomes the Harpy and Red She-Hulk (or She-Rulk)!   So quite a few important first appearances. 

IH#1 is also the first time that a Marvel character was featured alone in his own self-titled series.  Think about that.  The very first time Marvel created a series focused on one superhero (actually 2 if you include Dr. Banner), and Marvel chose the Hulk.  Not Spidey.  Not Thor.  Not Dr. Strange.  Not Antman.  The Hulk got his own book first.  That is Mount Rushmore stuff.  It's like being the guy chosen for the NBA logo.     

As for the character, for many years now the Hulk has been a significant part of every comic book and every movie he has appeared in.  And he wasn’t just a great solo act.  He was one of the five founding members of the Avengers in the comics and a big part of the team in the MCU.  The importance of the Avengers, including the Hulk, to the MCU (as we know it) cannot be denied or overstated, while X-Men has yet to make its mark in the MCU.  Hulk has been a significant cinematic presence for two decades now, despite Disney not owning the rights to the Hulk yet.  Disney clearly likes the Hulk, and if it ever obtains the rights to Hulk and reboots the characters, that could be huge. 

Up to this point, the comics and movies have done just fine with incorporating the Hulk in storylines, so any suggestion that storytelling opportunities are limited with the Hulk is belies fact.  He has been everywhere to this point, and successfully at that.  And the Hulk remained important in the comic books after they went cosmic, so how do you think he’ll do in the MCU’s very cosmic future?  World-Breaker Hulk or Immortal Hulk anyone?  We have already seen Hulk/Banner’s popularity as a hero and anti-hero.  And if a cosmic MCU is in our future, the Hulk could be popular as a super villain, too. 

As for the cover, it asks the reader, "Is he a Man or Monster or... is he both?"  This reminds us of the uniqueness of this alter-ego character, another Marvel first.  

IH#1 is also Marvel’s most iconic cover, which has been copied many times.  X-Men#1's cover is admittedly just blah, even according to die-hard X-Men fans.  Other issues in this title pay homage to it, like IH#200, IH#324, IH#393, and IH#474, but also other Marvel titles, like Savage She-Hulk #1, The Immortal She-Hulk #1, Doctor Strange #169, Marvel Zombies #1, Maestro #1, Death of Wolverine #1, the list goes on and on.  And let’s not overlook issues from lesser-known publishers, like Do You Pooh Spawn #296 Mattina variant (Counterpoint Entertainment) and Stabbity Bunny Issue #7b (Scout Comics)!   Even rival publisher DC has an homage cover to IH#1, like Swamp Thing Winter Special #1!  I am not aware of any books paying homage to X-Men #1's cover, not a single one.  That speaks volumes (pun intended).     

An extra special bonus is that the Green Goliath is actually grey in the inaugural issue, including the cover.  Because he wasn’t drawn green until IH#2, this too makes IH#1 a very important book, including the cover. 

Last, but certainly not least, there is the ridiculous relative scarcity of IH#1 among early SA Marvel mega-keys.  Tales to Astonish #27 is the rarest in universal grade, followed by IH1, JIM83, ST110, FF1, TOS39, AF15, ASM1, Avengers1, and X-Men1 last, in that order.  ALL of these books are undervalued, especially in light of the valuations of more recent and common books.  But even among the early SA mega-keys, IH#1 is relatively scarce and undervalued. 

To put it in perspective, there are only 1,266 universal IH#1s, compared to 3,656 universal X-Men#1.  Yes, you read that correctly….one IH#1 for every three X-Men#1 overall, but in fact IH#1 is rarer than that in mid- to higher grades due to its notoriously dark cover.  There are only SEVEN books graded above 9.0.  Only 31 graded above 8.0, compared to 119 for X-Men #1, or one IH#1 for roughly every four X-Men#1 in higher grades.  Here’s the CGC census for them:

So let's not forget the many reasons why Overstreet year after year has IH#1 in the top spots for the Silver Age.  IH#1 should remain there.  And no, the Hulk did not force me to do this post.      

Hello, and thank you very much for your reply! I sincerely appreciate a good dialogue chatting in-depth about silver age comic hierarchy. In placing Hulk 1 above X-1 I think you have some good points, like how the Hulk character has survived multiple new interpretations and modern takes and storylines. I agree that the Hulk character and concept are still being mined for great new ideas and stories, like the Immortal Hulk, the galactic planet hulk stuff etc.

In response to your post I would like to add my reply to some of your assertions and provide my personal opinion - please forgive me as I don’t know how to quote sections of posts:

“Hulk 1 has multiple important first appearances”

True! There are several first appearances in the book, however I tend disagree with how much importance you place on the Banner/Hulk separation as being “TWO first appearances!” It’s a simple Jekyll/Hyde riff, of course they are two characters because it’s Kirby’s version of a classic plot. (Nothing wrong with that!) not to mention the majority of superheroes have alter egos. 

I don’t place much stock in the importance of Rick Jones, he always seemed to me like yet another boyhood sidekick who serves as a mouthpiece for the main character  to play dialogue with. In an industry absolutely stuffed with teen/boy sidekicks, there are many more important and memorable versions of this character-type (Robin, Bucky, Speedy, Jimmy Olsen, Wally West etc) and I had to google “A-Bomb” as I’d never heard of that before, but I could just be out of touch. I doubt Rick Jones has many fans who are buying Hulk 1 to have his key book. Red Hulk and A-Bomb and She-Rulk all seem to have sprouted up after the 2008 Hulk film, perhaps trying to capitalize on the movie and hardly seem as important as any single first appearance from X-Men 1’s MULTIPLE iconic first appearance heroes (and villain - and team... and mutant concept etc) 

“Hulk was the first Marvel character to debut in a #1 of his own series”

True! And it’s pretty cool and certainly adds a cool-factor to Hulk 1 as a key book - but the Hulk character was also the first Marvel character to lose his main title after only 6 issues and then play backup to Giant Man in Tales to Astonish. I don’t put much importance on the “character got their own mag!” thing in early SA Marvel, as we know Historically Marvel was handicapped by their competitor/distributor DC on how many titles they could publish - that’s why so many characters try-out first appearances where in their other anthology titles.
 

“Cover uniqueness of the Man/Monster?”

the Thing/Ben Grimm is similar and has his iconic “THIS MAN.. THIS MONSTER!” Issue, as well as the character coming first in FF1 and sharing some elements of the Jekyll/Hyde tropes (though not as direct as Hulk) I actually prefer the Thing/Ben over the Hulk/Banner for a man/monster character - I think he’s far more fleshed out in Lee/Kirby’s FF run than the Hulk ever was in the silver age (just my preference) 

“IH #1 is Marvel’s most iconic cover”

Maybe! It’s definitely iconic, and beloved. Many people seem to like it over X-1, which is totally fine - it’s all a matter of preference and taste. I would love to own an IH#1 someday, and I am firmly in the cult of Jack Kirby. I enjoy X-1’s cover as it features not only the team in a proper superhero battle scene demonstrating some of their powers, but also has them dramatically facing off against the mysterious villain Magneto who is also displaying a mysterious super-power right on the cover. You get the brand new characters fighting and using super abilities - ON THE COVER! (Looking at you Strange Tales 110 - cough) 

“The Hulk is grey in issue 1”

Yep, that’s a neat and important significance that adds to IH#1’s charm. I know they used the grey hulk again later in the 80’s, but I don’t really know much Hulk lore regarding the in-canon colour differences so please forgive my ignorance. All I know is they changed it in issue 2 because the grey didn’t print as well as they wanted so they switched to green and the rest is history.

last but not least - “Hulk 1 is rarer” 

I believe I mentioned this in my original post, saying that “besides being rarer physically” what does the Hulk have over the X-men? Yes, Hulk 1 is rarer, harder to find in high grade, and the dark cover is much tougher. I still think the X-men characters and concept have proven to be the defining Marvel property (next to Spidey) for over 40 years. X-men simply has more going for it than Hulk in my opinion - but hey that’s just my opinion! 
 

and no, Magneto didn’t force me to post this  I swear ! Haha

Regardless of my opinion, Hulk 1 will probably continue to be the book with more prestige - but my personal top 3 would be FF1, AF15, X1. 

Hello all! 
 

first time poster, long time lurker - I’ve been seriously collecting for about 20 years and recently picked up a gorgeous CGC 4.5 - a month ago (I’ll post a picture once I figure out how to!)

On the topic of X1’s rank in the SA Marvel hierarchy, I personally feel that X1’s recent explosion is long overdue. While I appreciate and understand the more historical ranking of IH1 over it, I myself feel that the top 3 should probably be FF1, AF15, X1. 

FF1 is THE first SA “Marvel” book, it kicks off the legendary Kirby/Lee run that transitions Marvel from the atlas/monster era into superheroes, and the level of creativity and influence/characters and concepts that came from the SA FF run can never be overstated. 

AF15 needs no explanation, obviously Spider-Man is Marvel’s top dog and the sheer amount of books, characters, spin-offs, films/ branding makes Spider-Man arguably a top 3 comic book character period. 
 

Now I can understand from a historical/collecting standpoint having IH1 as a top 3 book, but outside of being a little older, perceived scarcity and a tougher dark cover - how does the Hulk character stack up? He’s a Jekyll/Hyde type monster character that helped bridge the gap between the Kirby monster books into the superhero books (along side FF’s Thing/Ben Grimm) with some Cold War atomic flair. The X-men, by comparison have near limitless storytelling possibilities with endless characters and concepts that continue to this day. Hulk has also been nowhere NEAR as popular or as influential as the X-men, where X1 gives you multiple important first appearances, the origin of the entire mutant/ superior concept, AND a villain first appearance in Magneto, who has arguably become a top 3 Marvel villain of all time. 

Think about every mutant character ever made in marvel tracing their origins directly back to X1. Think about every single version of an “X” team tracing its original back to X1. Yeah X-men’s original run was not as popular in the 60s, and it fell into reprints until GSX1, but the concept/brand has only grown larger decade after decade, where Hulk has had some time in the spotlight but is ultimately a lesser creation by comparison. 

But hey, that’s just my opinion