What exactly is a "Comic Book"?

[Theagenes]

(Depending on your definition of "comic book")

 

Hey, that could make for an interesting thread! Might even fill a page or two.

 

Not trying to resurrect "OO vs.Supes" but these three books are sort of a microcosm of that "what is a comic book?" debate. Someone with a broader defination of "comic book" like Bob B. (or selegue?) would probably say The Illustrated Tarzan Book is the first Tarzan comic book. Others with a stricter definition that want the text fully integrated with the art might go with SS 20. Most people in the middle who say text + comic art + magazine format =comic book would probably go with LF 5. Of course if you're a real strict construction who requires word balloons, then the first Tarzan comic book would be Four Color 134

 

Jeff

 

Interesting point.

Does anyone have interior shots of these books?

Looking at the format and "300 pictures" blurb makes me think that Illustrated Tarzan Book is just that, an illustrated book rather than a comic book. I don't really have a strict definition or dividing line since the "standard US comic book" format evolved gradually, but in this case a story with occasional illustrations seems like "not comic book" but a format where every block of text has a picture associated with it, and vice versa, seems like "real comic book". For the latter, I mean a format like the Prince Valiant Sunday strips, Obidiah Who-Shall-Not-Be-Allowed-to-Sidetrack-BZ's-Thread, or Beautiful Stories for Ugly Children, which does make the "strict" cut at GCD. Is that how the other two books look? In that light, should we embrace a boardbook of Busch's Max und Moritz as a comic book? Probably yes.

 

Sorry, BZ. On with the show. If this discussion continues, I'll take it outside.

 

Jack

 

CONT'D from the Cigar Thread

 

This could be an interesting discussion, but I agree we don't want to derail any other threads.

 

Jack, The Tarzan Illustrated Book (1929) and Large Feature 5 (1939) have indentical content -- the 1929 Foster Tarzan daily strip. It consists of sequential B&W panels with narrative text underneath each panel. The only difference between the two is the type of format -- the former is a regular HB book w/dj; the latter is a magazine format. The content however is identical.

 

When I get home from work I can take some more interior pics, but here is one from the Illustr. Tarzan Book that I posted in the Platinum thread last year.

 

Jeff

 

 

[Point Five]

What exactly is a "Comic Book"?

 

Damned if I know anymore.

[BangZoom]

What exactly is a "Comic Book"?

 

Damned if I know anymore.

 

I know one when I see one.

[The Black Hand ®]

The last new, real comic book I saw was back in 1964.

[HouseofComics.Com]

The last new, real comic book I saw was back in 1964.

 

Adding that yellow circle around the Bat symbol really hit you hard, eh? Time to let it go.

[shiverbones]

[The Black Hand ®]

The last new, real comic book I saw was back in 1964.

 

Adding that yellow circle around the Bat symbol really hit you hard, eh? Time to let it go.

 

That too. But it just seemed like the freshness of the silver age was gone. Marvel became too cute times ten and DC just ran out of steam. Granted, this is an old fogie view, but it's the way I felt nonetheless.

[Theagenes]

For me it comes down to format, I suppose.

 

 

This is NOT a comic book:

 

 

 

This is also NOT a comic book, although in a strange coincidence of history it does have a structural similarity to those periodicals that would come to be known as "comic books" a century later (except that it has string instead of staples):

 

 

 

This, however, most definately IS a comic book:

 

[The Black Hand ®]

Still only $20,000!

[Theagenes]

The Obadiah card has been played. This thread will soon be locked.

[selegue]

I realize that there's no "right answer", but I find this discussion thought-provoking every time it rears its ugly head.

Interesting to see your strong "it's all about format, not content" point of view.

Apparently it doesn't bother you that the "structurally similar" Brother Jonathan loses points for lack of staples (which weren't available at the time) but the modern reprint (if I remember right, square binding without staples) does not.

I don't remember what you call DC Showcase and Archive volumes, Marvel Masterworks and Essentials. Are those comic books?

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Jack

 

 

For me it comes down to format, I suppose.

 

 

This is NOT a comic book:

 

 

 

This is also NOT a comic book, although in a strange coincidence of history it does have a structural similarity to those periodicals that would come to be known as "comic books" a century later (except that it has string instead of staples):

 

 

 

This, however, most definately IS a comic book:

 

[Scrooge]

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Trouble maker Of course, we also apply the 50% rule in addition to the format requirement

 

For me, I would say that only the LF and the SS posted by Theagenes are comic books.

[selegue]

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Trouble maker Of course, we also apply the 50% rule in addition to the format requirement

 

For me, I would say that only the LF and the SS posted by Theagenes are comic books.

 

The 3 Obadiahs, the 3 Tarzans, or all 6?

 

I still lean toward all 6 being comic books, but "important precursor in the development of..." waffling works too.

 

Jack

[selegue]

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Trouble maker Of course, we also apply the 50% rule in addition to the format requirement

 

For me, I would say that only the LF and the SS posted by Theagenes are comic books.

 

You rat! You changed while I was quoting you!

That answers one of my questions. You meant the Tarzans, not the Obadiahs.

 

JPS

[showcase4]

uh oh....I know where this is leading!

I am sitting on the sidelines this time around

[1koko]

 

[Theagenes]

I realize that there's no "right answer", but I find this discussion thought-provoking every time it rears its ugly head.

Interesting to see your strong "it's all about format, not content" point of view.

Apparently it doesn't bother you that the "structurally similar" Brother Jonathan loses points for lack of staples (which weren't available at the time) but the modern reprint (if I remember right, square binding without staples) does not.

I don't remember what you call DC Showcase and Archive volumes, Marvel Masterworks and Essentials. Are those comic books?

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Jack

 

 

Jack, As you say there is no right answer and it comes down to personal preference for nomenclature.

 

The Obadiah post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Certainly content matters -- I assumed as a given that were talking about books whose content can be reasonably considered comics or comicstrips. As for what constitutes a comic strip, I like the definition you gave earlier about sequential panels with text accompanying each individual panel. That was poorly paraphased on my part, but I like that, as it's broad enough to include things like OO and the Tarzan dailies, which are basically the same thing, but excludes things like DC's Who's Who or the Buck Rogers Kelloggs premium.

 

If you except that the content is a comic strip, then it is format that matters for me. The term "comic book" as it has come to be understood in modern times is of course a misnomer as it really refers to "comic magazines" but that is where we are at.

 

The modern Italian reprint of OO that I have is a magazine format with staples (perhaps there is also a perfect-bound version?) and therefore is a "comic book" in the modern sense of the term. Likewise for Large Feature 5.

 

The Tilt and Brogue edition is a hardback book; though it contents can certainly be considered a comic strip, it does not fit what what is commonly meant by "comic book" today. "Graphic novel" or "comic album" would probably be appropriate, however. The Illustrated Tarzan Book would fall into this catagory as well.

 

The Brother Jonathon version is problematic to be sure. It is very similar in format to modern comic magazines, but it is not a prototype or precursor of the comic magazine. There is no historical or evolutionary link in terms of structure between that Brother Jonathon version and Funnies on Parade or Detective Dan. To think of it in those terms is to take it out of it's historical context. Obadiah was reprinted many times, usually in hardback format -- one reprint, this 1842 Bro. Jonathon version happened to be in the format of the chapbooks of the time, that's all.

 

Again, there is no right answer, and all of the above is simply my preferred nomenclature, nothing more. There are some who I know would not consider OO or the Tarzan dailies to be a comic strips at all, regardless of format they were published in, but I would disagree with that.

[Robert Beerbohm]

I posted this to the thread from whence it evolved, then repost it here, expanded a bit:

 

1939 - reprints the first Tarzan dailies from 1929.

 

Right -- it's considered by most to be the first Tarzan comic book. The 1929 dailies by Foster are actually an adaptation of the first novel, Tarzan of the Apes with narrative text below the illustrated panels. If you've never seen B&W Foster, it has a very different look to it than his work that was intended to be colored and is very cool. This same material was reprinted earlier in hardback in 1929 as The Illustrated Tarzan Book No. 1. Single Series 20, which came out in 1940, reprinted Foster Sundays and was the first regular-size color Tarzan comic book.

 

The three contenders for "1st Tarzan Comic Book" (Depending on your definition of "comic book"):

 

 

 

Taking a breather from setting up my comics mail order business again following yet another very successful San Diego comicon. Am not doing Wizard World shows any more, and it feels strangely good as eBay store & web sales are steady - lot less over head also -

 

It is sad when some people decide to put on horse blinders keeping them looking at one single format - its OK, there is Beerbohm's Exclusive Comics Guaranty Twelve Step Program designed to wean one from being a Conservative Collector, one of exclusion

 

The Big Tent Collector is more open minded - take the G&D Tarzan book from 1929, which went thru multiple printings, was a facsimile of the original words & pictures story telling as seen in the newspapers. People consider these the first newspaper comic strips for Tarzan, so, here they are layered into that red & green hard cover book with printed on art on the cover, wrap around format, um, no staples, stiched together with glue added in

 

- does a comic book have to have staples, one asks?

 

So, Tarzan FB 5 which reprints the 1929 comicbook is also a comic book. Why would any one be foolish enough to question this simple fact?

 

And Single Series 20 is, again, newspaper comic strip reprints - all three are

 

to acept one in means to accept them all under the umbrella

 

which leads us directly to Obadiah Oldbuck, and what it is, the first American printed comic book - and still a long way newer from the "first" comic strips. - even in America.

 

All six items presently under discussion are comic books. It is words & pictures working together with movement of space thru time between the panels - words inside or underneath the panels, it matters not.

 

the Large Feature 5 reprints the very same panels as the G&D #1 1929 hardcover, for the record

 

i truly wish to understand why there are ones out there who think a comicbookis just the Famous Funnies format, which is nothing more or less than the late Dime Novel format exactly except there are colored pick-churs added inside in addition to the same colorful "pick it up and suck you inside" cover formats used by pulps then comic books

 

[Theagenes]

You do include any "floppy pamphlet" as a comic book, right? DC's Who's Who series, Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe? How about Amazing World of DC Comics and FOOM?

 

Trouble maker Of course, we also apply the 50% rule in addition to the format requirement

 

For me, I would say that only the LF and the SS posted by Theagenes are comic books.

 

 

Lucky you -- you edited it just before I brought out this graemlin:

 

[Theagenes]

I posted this to the thread from whence it evolved, then repost it here, expanded a bit:

 

1939 - reprints the first Tarzan dailies from 1929.

 

Right -- it's considered by most to be the first Tarzan comic book. The 1929 dailies by Foster are actually an adaptation of the first novel, Tarzan of the Apes with narrative text below the illustrated panels. If you've never seen B&W Foster, it has a very different look to it than his work that was intended to be colored and is very cool. This same material was reprinted earlier in hardback in 1929 as The Illustrated Tarzan Book No. 1. Single Series 20, which came out in 1940, reprinted Foster Sundays and was the first regular-size color Tarzan comic book.

 

The three contenders for "1st Tarzan Comic Book" (Depending on your definition of "comic book"):

 

 

 

Taking a breather from setting up my comics mail order business again following yet another very successful San Diego comicon. Am not doing Wizard World shows any more, and it feels strangely good as eBay store & web sales are steady - lot less over head also -

 

It is sad when some people decide to put on horse blinders keeping them looking at one single format - its OK, there is Beerbohm's Exclusive Comics Guaranty Twelve Step Program designed to wean one from being a Conservative Collector, one of exclusion

 

The Big Tent Collector is more open minded - take the G&D Tarzan book from 1929, which went thru multiple printings, was a facsimile of the original words & pictures story telling as seen in the newspapers. People consider these the first newspaper comic strips for Tarzan, so, here they are layered into that red & green hard cover book with printed on art on the cover, wrap around format, um, no staples, stiched together with glue added in

 

- does a comic book have to have staples, one asks?

 

So, Tarzan FB 5 which reprints the 1929 comicbook is also a comic book. Why would any one be foolish enough to question this simple fact?

 

And Single Series 20 is, again, newspaper comic strip reprints - all three are

 

to acept one in means to accept them all under the umbrella

 

which leads us directly to Obadiah Oldbuck, and what it is, the first American printed comic book - and still a long way newer from the "first" comic strips. - even in America.

 

All six items presently under discussion are comic books. It is words & pictures working together with movement of space thru time between the panels - words inside or underneath the panels, it matters not.

 

the Large Feature 5 reprints the very same panels as the G&D #1 1929 hardcover, for the record

 

i truly wish to understand why there are ones out there who think a comicbookis just the Famous Funnies format, which is nothing more or less than the late Dime Novel format exactly except there are colored pick-churs added inside in addition to the same colorful "pick it up and suck you inside" cover formats used by pulps then comic books

 

I suppose I'm just following the conventional use of term, that's all. Bob, I completely understand where you and Jack and coming from, I really do. When you use the term "comic book" it means something different than when Shield uses it (not picking on Shield, but his name just came to mind as one of the 'strict definition' guys from the old thread). And that's okay. I suppose I fall somewhere in between.

 

I know one thing -- no matter what you want to call to those Tarzan books I love all three!

 

Oh yeah, and Foster rules!

 

I think that much we all can agree on. (thumbs u

 

Jeff