Has this book been trimmed? What do you guys think?

[Shield]

I posted this in the golden age forum, but I'd like to hear what everyone here thinks:

 

Original post:

 

In the current Heritage Auction:

 

http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=826&Lot_No=41387

 

How can so much be cut off the right edge and STILL have so much of the spine showing? I know it has a spine roll, but shouldn't the front right part of the cover extend out PAST the edge of the paper?

 

Something doesn't make sense here...

 

Current resized pictures of the book in question:

 

 

 

 

Here's 2 other Pep #2's for comparison:

 

 

 

 

[Aces]

Certainly does appear to be missing something...

[Mr. Zipper]

Impossible to say for sure, but the fact that it is significantly short in both the front and back, would give me pause.

 

Typically, when one side is significantly shorted, you'd expect the other side to make up some of the difference. You can also factor in cover shrinkage, but it still seems like a bit much.

 

Bear in mind that CGC policy is to not label something "trimmed" (or whatever) unless they are certain. Just because it is in a blue label doesn't mean it is not trimmed or even that they did not suspect it. It just means they were not certain.

 

It's probably almost impossible to be certain about a potential trim job that may have happened 50 years ago.

[divad]

This book is lucky to have even survived the last 60+ years! I would be inclined to attribute the edge shortness on both covers to be lousy QP rather than trimming, since it has been inspected and slabbed in a Blue label, by people who are better at detecting such things in hand than most

[divad]

CGC policy is to not label something "trimmed" (or whatever) unless they are certain. Just because it is in a blue label doesn't mean it is not trimmed or even that they did not suspect it. It just means they were not certain.

 

Is that kind of like the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent"?

[LonAllen-migration]

FYI: This book came from an original owner collection. The original owner's son brought the books to me at the San Diego Comicon this year, and I handed them directly to CGC.

[PovertyRow]

Actually, while I have always said it is near impossible to tell trimming from a scan, there IS something here that gives me pause.

 

Look at the amount of white on the spine's front cover. And then look at the apparant spine roll from looking at the back cover. If that spine roll were removed and the majority of the white on the spine were redirected to the back, there would be a very short cover widthwise. The amount of interior page showing would be almost twice as much as now.

 

Now this still could be just really crappy QP. But we would be looking at the cover being about 1/4" short from the right edge.

[bhhooks22]

I'm sorry.. ,but if no one can prove that this ISN'T a trim job ,..I don't know how anything can be determined to be trimmed ,if that one can't. ..I mean ,really?? ,all the books that I have looked at ,especially older ones The covers extend well beyond the pages and have a tendancy to bend over ,etc......This one is the exact opposite. And it's not like its a miswrap either............BH......

[PovertyRow]

I'm sorry.. ,but if no one can prove that this ISN'T a trim job ,..I don't know how anything can be determined to be trimmed ,if that one can't. ..I mean ,really?? ,all the books that I have looked at ,especially older ones The covers extend well beyond the pages and have a tendancy to bend over ,etc......This one is the exact opposite. And it's not like its a miswrap either............BH......

 

BH - you sound like you are arguing both sides of the issue. I'm not really sure what you are saying. Can you rephrase it?

[Shield]

I'm convinced it was trimmed at some point. Perhaps a month ago, perhaps 65 years ago, who knows. But there's too many obvious factors that lead me to this conclusion.

 

1. Unusually sharp right edge for a book in this overall condition.

2. The cover is very short on both the BACK and front width wise.

3. A significant portion of the logo is missing on the right side.

4. Blow up the high res scan on Heritage, and note the wear at the top of the spine. Now look how "perfect" the right edge is in contrast.

5. Show me another book with a spine roll that either doesn't have the front or back cover extending out further than the rest of the paper. I will post more examples.

 

I'm in no way accusing anyone involved in the sale of trimming it (really I'm not) I was just thinking of BUYING this book but now I'm not sure.

[Shield]

Here's what I'm talking about - note how the front cover (since it's rolled) extends easily past the interior:

 

 

[Sal]

I'm convinced it was trimmed at some point. Perhaps a month ago, perhaps 65 years ago, who knows. But there's too many obvious factors that lead me to this conclusion.

 

1. Unusually sharp right edge for a book in this overall condition.

2. The cover is very short on both the BACK and front width wise.

3. A significant portion of the logo is missing on the right side.

4. Blow up the high res scan on Heritage, and note the wear at the top of the spine. Now look how "perfect" the right edge is in contrast.

5. Show me another book with a spine roll that either doesn't have the front or back cover extending out further than the rest of the paper. I will post more examples.

 

I'm in no way accusing anyone involved in the sale of trimming it (really I'm not) I was just thinking of BUYING this book but now I'm not sure.

 

with regard to items 1) and 4), i'll say this; the back cover left edge and the interior pages on the open edge all seem to be pretty uniformly free of wear. the lack of damage relative to the top is troubling, but at least it's consistent on all pages.

 

without looking at the top and right edges through a loupe and studying the grain/colour of the exposed paper edge it would be difficult to say for sure imho, given the book has gone through the resto check by someone who is highly qualified, and who saw the book in person.

 

all that being said, i wouldn't bid on the book if it's going to be troubling you every time you look at it. .02

[divad]

I'm convinced it was trimmed at some point. Perhaps a month ago, perhaps 65 years ago, who knows. But there's too many obvious factors that lead me to this conclusion.

 

1. Unusually sharp right edge for a book in this overall condition.

2. The cover is very short on both the BACK and front width wise.

3. A significant portion of the logo is missing on the right side.

4. Blow up the high res scan on Heritage, and note the wear at the top of the spine. Now look how "perfect" the right edge is in contrast.

5. Show me another book with a spine roll that either doesn't have the front or back cover extending out further than the rest of the paper. I will post more examples.

 

I'm in no way accusing anyone involved in the sale of trimming it (really I'm not) I was just thinking of BUYING this book but now I'm not sure.

 

Shield,

 

These are all very good observations, and as POV says, if they give you pause, then perhaps you should (pause, that is). Just today I received a trimmed book in the mail, that from scans, I didn't suspect trimming. Nor did I have any other reason to suspect trimming, but in hand, it is a glaring fact.

 

 

David

[Mr. Zipper]

Blow up the high res scan on Heritage, and note the wear at the top of the spine. Now look how "perfect" the right edge is in contrast.

 

The plausible explanation for this is that the extended inner pages (on the right) protected the right cover edge from damage. Whereas, the top overhang had no such protection, so the top edge is a bit rougher.

[Mr. Zipper]

all that being said, i wouldn't bid on the book if it's going to be troubling you every time you look at it. .02

 

I agree 100%. You need to be happy with it and have no doubts.

 

In autograph collecting, sometimes you get a signature that is 100% known authentic, but for whatever reason, it's a bit sloppy and will always lead others to think it **might** be hinky. The rule of thumb is to avoid these because why own something you are always going to have to "defend"?

[Shield]

Yes, you guys are right - I'll avoid the book. I have enough money I'm planning on spending with Heritage tonight anyway! Wish me luck on the 2 I'm going after...

[bhhooks22]

I simply think that this should be a poster child example of a trimmed book!....And if this one can slip by,(and/or ,..not be proven to be trimmed )....then what's the point.

The only thing that appears to matter for this book is how the market responds to it.......ie..Some may shy away from it , others may not notice or care ,and others will continue to question it ?........BH.....

[Sal]

i really, really, really doubt this one "slipped by," as you put it. it seems likely, rather, that this book was given special attention, given the nature of its defects. i can't imagine that they would do otherwise, and likely were not thrilled to give it a blue label, given the likelihood that it would be discovered and discussed as it has

[VintageComics]

I'd have to agree. They are not novices at this game (I'm not implying that you said they were). This book probably would have had a 4th grader and after some deliberation a call would have been made. Another point to remember is that CGC not only has good resto detection but they have probably seen more copies of a given book than ANY other single person out there. Chances are that they have seen this before. Why not call CGC and sk them about it? It's obviously a book you'd love to own so get the answer from the horse's mouth. That's what I do every time they misgrade my books!

 

 

R.

 

 

[bhhooks22]

Well ,sorry ,..since there seems to be two or three that disagree, that I'm sure have more experience than me.It sure looked odd to me. ...But I'll leave it at that.I guess anythings possible ?.......BH......