Smudging :: A method of cloaking CT?

[comicwiz]

I went to look at two collections last week. One of them was filled with GA and SA books; a majority of keys. I took along my handheld resto lamp with me, and went at about 5 half boxes worth of comics. Its worth noting that one of the most unusual things I noticed about this collection was that the guy wrapped each book in newpaper! Yes, you read right -- newspaper. I pulled aside a number of early Actions, Dectectives -- and a few EC's. There was really no odour to the books, and the cover inks and reflectivity on these books were sharp. But most of the books I pulled out were just too nice. I asked if I could take the books in a dark room -- the guy obliged. I took out my resto lamp, and noticed a number of fingerprints along the spine, and outer edges of the books that ranged from barely noticeable to very heavy.

 

Now before I go on, the books did not appear to have any work performed on them -- no pieces added, no cleaning that I could pick-up, nor any signs of trimming. The books did however look cosmetically perfect, except of course for the inordinate amount of fingerprint smudges (that I'm assuming to have derived from handling the comics while placing them in the newsprint wrapping).

 

So for obvious aesthetic reasons, I passed on what I felt were some structurally strong copies of some tough early GA comics. But the skeptical side of me couldn't help but think -- were those smudges intentionally placed on these near perfect copies to hide something?

 

So I throw out this question to the forum: if a comic posseses a very minor amount of colour touch, that is then either covered-up or disguised by a newsprint/fingerprint smudge, would CT show-up? Here is my thinking after this viewing :: for the reason that I do believe three or four smudges on a VF books cover would not drastically reduce the books grade, would a smudge to cloak CT be worth the drop in grade just to avoid a purple label?

[sfilosa]

Serious Fingerprint smudges will reduce the grade of books (sometimes significantly).

 

If a book has very little color touch (on a very high grade book), actually removing the color touch area (by removing part of the book) will probably not reduce the value (by lowering the grade) as much as a PLOD label will.

 

 

[Bronty]

Hmm... interesting though, Joseph. I'm not a resto expert, but I'm not sure it would work... at least on amateur CT - i.e. since at least some of the CT ink has soaked into the paper, I think the CT would still be perceptible to CGC resto-check tools even if the top layer of the book was smudged..

[comicwiz]

If a book has very little color touch (on a very high grade book), actually removing the color touch area (by removing part of the book) will probably not reduce the value (by lowering the grade) as much as a PLOD label will.

 

To follow-up on your comments about removing pieces from a cover with CT, I would have to imagine that the most difficult part of the book to remove would be along the spine. This also happens to be one of the most common areas to find CT, sometimes in an attempt to hide spine wear and improve the books overall appearance. Given that line of thinking, I would be fairly suspicious of a book that exhibits smudging along the spine. Arguably, the spine could be one of the first spots to find smudging from handling, but I can't help but think that carving out or scratching away CT would be far more punishing to the books overall grade than to cloak it with a smudge.

[comicwiz]

Hey Bronty

 

There is part of me that agrees with your position, and the other part which feels that detecting CT in a scenario like this would require someone with a trained eye, and less reliance on hardware. I view an ink smudge created from handling newsprint as ink on paper. I don't believe black light would work well, and a microscope might be a better answer, but then, I would have to think that it all depends on the severity of the smudging. Again, I'm no expert, but my gut feeling is that detecting tampering at this level would require a seasoned eye and instinct that comes from experience in situations like these, and less to do with mechanics (ie hardware).

[Bronty]

Hmm... interesting point. I wonder what pov would have to say about this?

 

POV, are you out there?

[sfilosa]

Quote:

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If a book has very little color touch (on a very high grade book), actually removing the color touch area (by removing part of the book) will probably not reduce the value (by lowering the grade) as much as a PLOD label will.

 

 

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To follow-up on your comments about removing pieces from a cover with CT, I would have to imagine that the most difficult part of the book to remove would be along the spine. This also happens to be one of the most common areas to find CT, sometimes in an attempt to hide spine wear and improve the books overall appearance. Given that line of thinking, I would be fairly suspicious of a book that exhibits smudging along the spine. Arguably, the spine could be one of the first spots to find smudging from handling, but I can't help but think that carving out or scratching away CT would be far more punishing to the books overall grade than to cloak it with a smudge.

 

I have an Atlas book in CGC VF that was bought already slabbed. Looking at the spine, I believe there is a tiny color fleck area that almost looks like a hole. It happens to be on a black area of the book. My guess (but I have no facts) is that there was a "tiny" color touch on the black area. Removing the tiny color touch reduced the book to a VF but if it had been a PLOD (even given a grade of VF/NM), the book would only get about the VG price.

 

It all depends on how tiny the color touch is. Remember, most PLOD books get about a 1/3 of there unrestored grade. Basically a VF PLOD book will get about the VG price. Can you remove a small color touch on a VF book without dropping the grade below VG. Most of the time the answer is YES.

 

[PovertyRow]

Now before I go on, the books did not appear to have any work performed on them -- no pieces added, no cleaning that I could pick-up, nor any signs of trimming. The books did however look cosmetically perfect, except of course for the inordinate amount of fingerprint smudges (that I'm assuming to have derived from handling the comics while placing them in the newsprint wrapping)...So for obvious aesthetic reasons, I passed on what I felt were some structurally strong copies of some tough early GA comics.

 

I have to confess to being flummoxed here, or else my brain is just missing some key element. These fingerprint smudges revealed themselves under black light but were not apparant under white light? And the books were "cosmetically perfect" but they were passed on for "obvious aesthitic reasons" (and these were tough early GA books to boot? Did the fingerprints also reveal themselves on other parts of the book? If so, were they emitting the same type of - well - emissions under black light as the smudged ones? (that is, same "color" and intenisity).

 

I'd like to participate but I need those grey areas clarified - things are a bit smudgy in my brain right now.

[OldGuy]

things are a bit smudgy in my brain right now.

 

"Smudgy" = Drunk

[mrwoogieman]

would it be possible to do a little VM&P naptha on one of the fingerprinted books to see if you can remove the newsprint smudge, and get a clear look at the spine then? How about buying one or two and sending them in to CGC and see what comes back? These don't sound like viable options in your situation, however.

[PovertyRow]

things are a bit smudgy in my brain right now.

 

"Smudgy" = Drunk

 

I wish! Am in work.

[comicwiz]

These fingerprint smudges revealed themselves under black light but were not apparant under white light?

 

Smudges were there in plain light. Some darker than others.

 

Did the fingerprints also reveal themselves on other parts of the book? If so, were they emitting the same type of - well - emissions under black light as the smudged ones? (that is, same "color" and intenisity).

 

I'm going by memory here, but of the three books I recalled best, the Action Comics 13 had approximately 5 smudges -- 3 along the spine (the darkest of the 5). The other 2 were closer to the outer edge, just under the Action Comics title. Here is a scan of Action Comics (not the actual book in question) with some smudges which were digitally rendered to better illustrate the location of the smudging:

 

 

Of the 3 smudges along the spine, all were below the white band. The other two smudges were located near the outer edge of the book.

 

The other two books: Detective 31 and Mad 5. The Action was by far the worse, and the Detective and Mad were darker covers, so the smudging didn't appear as heavy, but by the time I started examining these books a little more closely, and thoughts of how neglectful this person had been, getting these wonderful books smudged so badly, its possible that I let my disappointment get the better of me, and everything at that point looked terrible.

 

Whether or not the smudges were intentional, they prevented me from properly assessing whether the areas where the smudges appeared were CT'd.

[comicwiz]

These don't sound like viable options in your situation, however.

 

In all seriousness, once I arrived there and saw that the guy had wrapped the comics in newsprint, I was ready to walk back to my car, and I would have, had I not driven an hour and 20 minutes to get to this place. Its also worth noting that he wanted some serious coin for the comics, and I just couldn't get past the smudges on the comics.

[comicwiz]

would it be possible to do a little VM&P naptha on one of the fingerprinted books to see if you can remove the newsprint smudge, and get a clear look at the spine then?

 

What is this? A technique to remove smudging? I'd be interested in hearing about this.

[mrwoogieman]

found the thread,

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=gradeandresto&Number=220347&Forum=All_Forums&Words=naptha&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=6months&Main=104172&Search=true#Post220347

 

 

[Bronty]

I thought Pov said Naptha cleaning was detectable (read: PLOD)?

[PovertyRow]

I thought Pov said Naptha cleaning was detectable (read: PLOD)?

 

No - done properly it should NOT be detectable. What MAY be detectable is the dismantling of the cover in order to treat it to remove the green/yellow transfer stains from the covers.

[PovertyRow]

found the thread,

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=gradeandresto&Number=220347&Forum=All_Forums&Words=naptha&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=6months&Main=104172&Search=true#Post220347

 

 

I have not had friend Arty's experience with the smudge removal, so I cannot attest to it - but I can attest to Arty's veracity! He be a wise one!

[PovertyRow]

Whether or not the smudges were intentional, they prevented me from properly assessing whether the areas where the smudges appeared were CT'd.

 

You said you brought your resto light with you - I assume a "black light"? Did this not reveal anything? Smudges in white light is one thing but if you didn;t see any CT under black light - or under magnification under white light - well - sounds like it may have just been fingerprint smudging.

[comicwiz]

Quote:

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I thought Pov said Naptha cleaning was detectable (read: PLOD)?

 

 

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No - done properly it should NOT be detectable. What MAY be detectable is the dismantling of the cover in order to treat it to remove the green/yellow transfer stains from the covers.

 

Is Naptha a chemical agent? How is it best applied for it to be performed properly?

I wouldn't mind testing this out on a few underground comics I have (notorious for smudging becasue of the fact that a great many of the early printings were manually assembled).