London comicon report (October 5th)

[drbanner]

From Rich's website:

 

"It is my policy to identify ALL restored books where the restored defects are beyond the set of defects allowed for that grade. For example: A book is in Fine condition overall but has a small tear that has been sealed. This would be noted as FN (st) because the small tear is a defect outside the scope of a FN definition. A book graded a Fair+ would not be identified as a restored book if the defects that were restored (sealed tear, tape removal, color touch, etc.) are common to a book graded as Fair+."

 

So, he's telling us that he does not always disclose restoration, but yet he does sell a lot of restored books. Makes you wonder if they were restored when he bought them, and how many restored books he's sold to unsuspecting buyers as unrestored??

[Foolkiller]

Ian:

 

I'm not the only one on this boards or at many shows will routinely tell you stories about Richie...

 

But when I was first coming into the hobby I had two experiences with Richie. The first was when I was looking vigorously for an Avengers 4 in F+ or so to VF. I asked to see Richie's, but I was about 20 at the time. He took a look at me and promptly said no. I asked why and he said... and I quote: you don't look like you have the money to buy this book. I walked away. Of course I bought one at that same show.

 

The second was through a dealer friend of mine, who I trust implicitly and I've known for years, that Richie was a cheat and basically a guy who could not be trusted. I asked around the room about him, and I got story after story after story, about how he's gotten in physical altercations with other dealers, is basically and is often a surly fellow, and of course, my favorite, he's dishonest.

 

It seems to be a basically accepted fact among many dealers, and many who even used to tolerate and like Richie to some degree have blasted him for his persona.

 

I'm happy you've had all positive experiences... I think far too many for my taste have not. I'll accept the warning that so many other dealers and collectors have given me about Richie, I advise anyone reading this to do the same. Aside from Chuck Rozanski, he's one of my least favorite dealers.

[goldust40]

Touche, Kev. Should've done my homework. I was basically thinking of all the books I saw that ideal had at San Diego - I confess I never took the time to explore their website. Please do a comparison (between me and them) with non-CGC items just for good measure. One example doesn't quite prove the theory. Anyway, the main part of the rant is that having compared prices, Mile High are about 3-4 times more expensive than not just me but any dealer, U.S. or U.K. Bringing them into the equation IS absurd.

[goldust40]

Hi Kev - I decided to check out ideal collectables' website and went through their entire stock of CGC books (they didn't seem to have any raw ones - correct me if I'm wrong). There's some nice books, but the prices are a bit crazy, although not surprising. As for further comparisons with my prices, I could only find one other item where I was more expensive - the F.F. Annual 1 9.0 that they had was cheaper. There weren't any other books with comparable grades. They had a Swamp Thing 1 in 9.2 for $295. I sold a 9.4 copy recently for $310 approx. My prices on raw books (the vast majority of my inventory, in other words) are lower than CGC ones - in the case of CGC books I tend to be admittedly high (yep, it's true, but most dealers are higher than ebay with these) but not always.

Yes I'm obsessive (as you can tell), but I'm always open to positive, detailed criticism. Provide me with more comparisons between me and ideal on Monday (as well as Mile High, if possible.)

 

God bless!

[Flaming_Telepath]

Back to pricing, eh? And Kev’s got Andy in a bit of a bind over one book? As the expression goes, one swallow does not a summer make.

 

The fact is that if you explore anybody’s inventory…anybody’s…you will find anomalies where they are out of step with the majority of the market. Perhaps they spent a lot of cash buying the thing in. Maybe they have great success selling the item at that price. Maybe they’ve simply called the price wrong…made an error, if you will.

 

What seems to me to be most important is whether they have a pricing structure in place, and whether that structure is generally fair and reasonable. In relation to raw books, what is also critical is that the buyer is getting what they pay for. Regarding Mr Coleman, I can honestly say that he is as good as anyone in the UK at grading books. If he’s called something a VF+, chances are you’ve got a VF+ in your hand. Let’s not confuse over-grading with over-pricing, as they are two separate issues. If somebody is charging 90% of NM for a book they’ve graded at VF+, but it is in fact a VF-, that’s a [!@#%^&^] deal by anybody’s standards.

 

For the sake of transparency, here’s my own structure for pricing raw books (and we’re talking Silver and early Bronze stuff, as all books from the 80’s onwards should be priced at 25c and be done with it) which I apply to almost everything that comes through my hands. Understandable exceptions will occur, such as early J.I.M.’s or an F.F. #12, or books that are flying off the shelves because of an impending film (and the buy-ins are therefore twice guide to begin with), but these are the rules I use…

 

VF = 65% of NM guide

VF+ = 80% of NM guide

VF/NM = 100% of NM guide

NM- = 115% of NM guide

NM = 125-150% of NM guide

 

Now then, am I selling you what I claim to be selling you? I think that, the vast majority of the time, I am. Sure, I make the occasional mistake on grade, as has every single person reading this post, but most of the time, I get it right. My record with CGC is that 75% of the books I’ve graded have come back bang-on, 15% I’ve undergraded and 10% I’ve overgraded.

 

So, given that you’re pretty much guaranteed to get what you paid for, is that price-gouging? Is that a ridiculous mark-up?

 

I don’t think it’s outside the bounds of reason and also, contrary to what seems to be popular opinion, I am happy to talk discount. At what percentage depends upon many factors, such as how difficult are the books to replace, how many copies do I have in stock, how many books has this customer bought from me in the past, how many is he buying now? A new face approaches and wants to buy a Spidey #16 in VF/NM at 30% off sticker price….well, he’s going to be a bit disappointed. A regular slaps down a complete run of Werewolf By Night and some mid-graded Flash? Sure I’m going to cut him a deal.

 

And I can tell you who isn’t going to get discount, no matter what he’s buying, and that’s the arrogant git who saunters up telling me he can get everything cheaper elsewhere, and that he’s not happy with my grading, and therefore I should bring all my prices down for him. Now he’s the guy who’s going to get the old ‘sorry, the price is the price’ line.

 

Finally, for those of you with a big-time down on UK dealers, I can tell you that the first Sunday of every month would be a much greyer day in London if there were no shows, if we all just decided to pack it in and forget about selling books. Sure, there’s some insufficiently_thoughtful_person dealers out there, but there’s the good guys, too. Choose which ones you want to do business with, build a relationship with them and be happy. If that’s me, or Andy, that’s great. If it’s not, that’s great too, just stop writing us all off as thieving, unprincipled, unwashed scoundrels.

[Foolkiller]

I really liked the above post. Very imformative and a good, fair breakdown from the dealers' side of the aisle.

[Ian_Levine]

Interesting post. So which one are you at the London shows ???? Have I bought off you

[goldust40]

Another eloquent post, dammit. Far more measured than my last couple of rantings. I particularly liked the bit about the git who says he can find the items elsewhere for less, whilst disparaging your grading skills. My response is usually a polite "well what are you standing here for- grab those bargains before they're gone!" Cheers also for praising my grading, FT. Grading is absolutely paramount - it always has been, and it took no less than CGC to demystify this and clear it up. If that doesn't deserve five stars..............

 

I've no desire to get in a bind with Kev, a Forumite who's posted many a good thread. My response, after consideration, should be that generally I'm less expensive than ideal. If you compare my raw books to their slabbed (when the comparison is apt) I'm cheaper. Not absolutely always, as Telepath has duly noted - there'll always be anomalies, e.g. the X-Men 94, where I overpaid from source or whatever. Enough already!!

 

Re the dealers' side of the table. Gpcove claimed that the dealer line was "a load of bull" and that historically there've been cartels hyping prices in our tiny and arrested marketplace for the last 25 years. He then states that all dealers are schmucks except for 2 or 3. Fair enough, we're all entitled to our opinion, and as Telepath said, you just can't win.

 

My reply would only be that as a dealer you are held more accountable, simply because you're visible. Also, the moment that a collector decides to sell some books on ebay, he (for the period of the auction, at least) becomes a dealer too, yet he can remain anonymous, as have you, Mr. Cove, on these boards.

 

Once you turn professional, it's no longer a hobby. Unlike the ebay seller who's looking for some cash or wants to downsize his collection, a dealer has to accept that he cannot be both. He also has to answer for price hypes and market manipulation (although I feel my influence on such matters is microscopic compared to the U.S. dealers). If high grade quality is your bag, then we have to source it from the U.S. If prices there go up (and they have, astronomically, over the last three years alone) then, yes, so do ours. If it's mid- grade you're after, then it's ebay all the way my friend, especially for common Silver and Bronze in average grades. And yes guide prices should reflect this. But if you're conversant with the ebay marketplace, you'd know this.

 

Yeah, there's been enough sharp practice in the U.K. market to write the proverbial best seller. Yet oddly enough such activity amazingly exists on ebay too. The amount of threads on this board which have stated that you have to expect at the very least an overgrade of half a grade on most ebay transactions!! And yes, this has been my experience. In spades. So there.

 

Let us rock!

[JohnBull]

Also, the moment that a collector decides to sell some books on ebay, he (for the period of the auction, at least) becomes a dealer too, yet he can remain anonymous, as have you, Mr. Cove, on these boards.

 

Uh, why am I anonymous on these boards ? Maybe I'm just mis-reading the sentence ?

[goldust40]

 

 

No, I won't be apologising for this later. I buy comics for a fun hobby and I don't have to watch my myself for fear of insulting someone who I might buy a comic from at some future date. I buy my comics from US dealers on e-bay, who I generally find very professional (no probs with Kev either) and Vault in the UK. I have no desire to deal with the rest of you and if I ever do walk into one of your shops with 2 grand in my backpocket, you won't know who the [!@#%^&^] I am anyway. I don't need bridges so I can tell it how it is.

 

See above. I merely meant that I've made my identity perfectly clear. Beyond the context of these boards. You haven't revealed who you really are, and fair enough, you don't have to. No judgement intended, only observation.

 

Let us Rock!

[JohnBull]

Ah, I see. The thing is though, that I'm not actually anybody, as such. My user ID has most of my name and if you go to my profile, my full name is there, along with my city of residence. Unlike Flaming Telegraph, I don't have an identity that you might recognise (I'm assuming that he is recognisable to some here). Apart from publishing my picture, address or e-mail address, I'm not sure what I could do to identify myself more. Since doing those things is generally considered a bad idea in cyberspace, I'll pass.

 

Tell you what though, if I ever go to a London show again, I'll come up and say hello. Might even go to the one in January if I'm not skinned out after Xmas.

[Durok-migration]

My response, after consideration, should be that generally I'm less expensive than ideal. If you compare my raw books to their slabbed (when the comparison is apt) I'm cheaper. Not absolutely always, as Telepath has duly noted - there'll always be anomalies, e.g. the X-Men 94, where I overpaid from source or whatever. Enough already!!

 

You must be joking Andy, that X-Men #94 on your web-site is no anomaly. Your prices on CGC'd material are outrageous. Most of your CGC'd books are in the 8.0 to 9.2 catergory, widely available in this condition and do not justify the 2 to 3 times guide multiples you have applied. This seems to be a U.K. dealer disease, which I had hoped you had not caught. Whether it's because U.K. dealers just do not have the quality in their stock, and see their U.S. counterparts making a killing on higher graded CGC material I don't know, but it's turning the U.K. market into a joke. You will rarely find any top U.S. dealers like Blazing Bob, Metropolis, Ideal etc stray so far from market in the grades from 8.0 to 9.2. When dealers are offering CGC'd material that is amongst the finest example of a particular book in the world, then they can price accordingly.

 

Although I am dis-appointed to see Andy has gone the Silver Acre route, he is genuinely one of the most honest, and professional dealers around. He is one of the U.K.s most consistent graders on raw books (along with Dave at Incognito Comics). In fact he is as tight a grader as any dealer in the U.S. (and more so than most).

 

Ian Levine - you seem like such a genuine guy, with such an enthusiasm and love for the hobby I get a horrible sinking feeling when I hear about how guys like Harley Yee and Duncan McAlpine fell over themselves to provide you with unslabbed Golden Age keys. These are guys with long-standing pre-CGC reputations for passing off restored stock as unrestored. Dealers like these are the very reason CGC has been such a god-send. I am concerned that in your quest to complete your D.C. run you may have been a little too trusting, and may find your gems turn to dust if you ever come to sell them. I sincerely hope I am proven wrong.

 

 

[JohnBull]

Ian Levine - you seem like such a genuine guy, with such an enthusiasm and love for the hobby I get a horrible sinking feeling when I hear about how guys like Harley Yee and Duncan McAlpine fell over themselves to provide you with unslabbed Golden Age keys. These are guys with long-standing pre-CGC reputations for passing off restored stock as unrestored. Dealers like these are the very reason CGC has been such a god-send. I am concerned that in your quest to complete your D.C. run you may have been a little too trusting, and may find your gems turn to dust if you ever come to sell them. I sincerely hope I am proven wrong.

 

 

Wow ! You sir, have cahunas. There's me making Chinese laundry jokes on another thread and you go on a ram raid through the front window ! There's a drink somewhere with your name on.

 

I suspect Ian probably has a fair bit on top and hopefully won't have been sold too many dummies. He's undoubtedly got a few but I can't imagine there's too many people with collections of that ilk who have managed to stay clean. I also imagine that he isn't too worried. I think if you approach a task of his magnitude that you need a fair degree of stoicism. If and when he does sell off, providing he takes his time he should make out ok.

[herc2000]

 

You must be joking Andy, that X-Men #94 on your web-site is no anomaly. Your prices on CGC'd material are outrageous. Most of your CGC'd books are in the 8.0 to 9.2 catergory, widely available in this condition and do not justify the 2 to 3 times guide multiples you have applied. This seems to be a U.K. dealer disease, which I had hoped you had not caught. Whether it's because U.K. dealers just do not have the quality in their stock, and see their U.S. counterparts making a killing on higher graded CGC material I don't know, but it's turning the U.K. market into a joke. You will rarely find any top U.S. dealers like Blazing Bob, Metropolis, Ideal etc stray so far from market in the grades from 8.0 to 9.2. When dealers are offering CGC'd material that is amongst the finest example of a particular book in the world, then they can price accordingly.

 

Although I am dis-appointed to see Andy has gone the Silver Acre route, he is genuinely one of the most honest, and professional dealers around. He is one of the U.K.s most consistent graders on raw books (along with Dave at Incognito Comics). In fact he is as tight a grader as any dealer in the U.S. (and more so than most).

 

 

Hmmm, just have a few things to say here, there is very few dealers that I have not deal with in the US and the UK. I see a wide range of peoples grades, personalities and the way they deal. Now in defence of Goldust, you say that his prices are 2-3 times guide in 8.0-9.2, well I just thought I would take a look and see what his prices were saying. I could'nt see any 8.0's at two or three times guide, maybe you should have looked at the price guide while surfing? You say Goldusts prices are way too high and are on par with Silver acre, either you don't know anything about the way the market has gone and going, or your just plain stupid! I have seen Silver acre buy CGC comics from Goldust, so what's he gonna price them up at. I also know a few US dealers have also bought CGC comics from Goldust. Obviously there will be the odd book that is pricey in comparison to other books but that will be the same with all dealers. And Kev Ideal collectables may have a X-men 94 in 9.2 cheaper than Goldusts 9.0, but how much did they pay for their copy, and how much did Andy's copy cost him? I bet Andy paid a lot more for the copy he has than Ideal did. Uk dealers, don't readily have the comics available to them that US dealers do, and they do have to try and make some money out of it. It's not ALL just about looking after the customer. I bet most of you Brits who moan about this and that with UK dealers have never been to a US show, and probably have no idea how to grade properly. Because all the dealers you seem to say are so good, I know are dreadful graders. So if you think they're grades are good, my God, I hate to think what your grading is like! NUFF SAID!

[Flaming_Telepath]

OK, I've said it before, I'll say it again...cease and desist with the sweeping generalisations. All UK dealers price CGC stock at 2 or 3 times guide?

 

Sorry, but which all are you refering to? All the ones you shop with? Or genuinely all? And all their books? All of them?

 

Here's a few things to think on...

 

Spidey #91, CGC graded 8.5, £39. Now, on a current conversion rate of 1.65 (which is a lot different to when the book was actually bought), that's $64.35. Guide puts it at $49, so the mark up is $15.35 (31%), which just so happens to pretty much equate to what you, or I, or anybody else would have to pay to have a book shipped insured US to UK.

 

Or F.F. #58 at £50 for a VF+. That's $82.50, which is $13 over guide (19%), which again is approximately the cost of shipping.

 

And which American saint-of-a-dealer is charging those prices? They're not. I am. In the UK. And after we factor in shipping, it looks like I'm charging absolutely spot-on guide for a book that is slabbed and graded.

 

I sometimes think that some people will only be happy when dealers give the suckers away, because it is after all only a hobby, eh?

[Durok-migration]

I could'nt see any 8.0's at two or three times guide, maybe you should have looked at the price guide while surfing? You say Goldusts prices are way too high and are on par with Silver acre, either you don't know anything about the way the market has gone and going, or your just plain stupid!

 

The very 1st title I checked in the CGC inventory list was Amazing Spider-man. Andy has a #23 in CGC VF+ 8.5. GP Analysis shows the average sales in this grade have been $385. Andy's price of $680 (£400) is 1.73 of the VF+ guide price of $392. Apologies for my stupidity, I should have said 1.7 to 3 times guide, rather than 2 to 3 times guide.

 

And by the way, I know plenty about how the market is going, which is why I take objection to U.K. dealers trying to rip me off with mid-grade CGC'd garbage when the rest of the world understands that Silver Age in 8.0 to 9.0 is PLENTIFUL.

 

 

 

[Durok-migration]

 

I sometimes think that some people will only be happy when dealers give the suckers away, because it is after all only a hobby, eh?

 

No, I am happy to pay top dollar for the finest quality books. Just don't try and sell me some p.o.s. 8.0 for double what the U.S. dealers are charging, just because you got it slabbed !?!

 

(I don't know you, so not referring to your stock, but the CGC stock of U.K. dealers generally.)

[Flaming_Telepath]

What 'rest of the world'????????

 

A couple of items from Bob Storms, who rumour would have it is based in the US of A. ASM #14 in VF+ @ $2400 - 40% above guide. ASM #24 in VF/NM @ $525 - 92% above guide.

 

Are these the 8.5s and 9.0s you're talking about? The 'plentiful ones' that the 'rest of the world' are giving away?

 

Maybe Bob's secretly English, based somewhere outside Gateshead and takes tables at the marts wearing a hat and Groucho moustache...

[Durok-migration]

What 'rest of the world'????????

 

A couple of items from Bob Storms, who rumour would have it is based in the US of A. ASM #14 in VF+ @ $2400 - 40% above guide. ASM #24 in VF/NM @ $525 - 92% above guide.

 

Are these the 8.5s and 9.0s you're talking about? The 'plentiful ones' that the 'rest of the world' are giving away?

 

Go look on Ebay, and do a search for CGC Silver Age in 8.0 to 9.0. I don't think you'll have to wait too long....

 

p.s. As for Bob Storms, I'll take his pricing, grading, stock content, and professionalism over the majority of U.K. dealers any day of the week !

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'm sorry, but what has eBay go to do with it? You DID NOT address my point, did you? You made a sweeping generalisation about 'the rest of the world'. I pointed out that Bob was US based and was charging similar factors to Andy here in the UK, and if you visit Harley's site, or Metropolis, you'll seem similar multiplication factors on very plentiful 8.5s and 9.0s. You also claimed that Andy charged '2 or 3 time guide', whereas it was a factor of 1.7 (and I'm sorry, but 1.7 is waaaaaaaaaay different to 3), but you seem to think that gross exaggeration is just as fine as sweeping generalisation.

 

Please go back to the very beginning and read again my first post to this thread regarding the factors that make books on eBay cheaper than books in stores and at shows in the UK. eBay prices are NOT representative of the overall market, which encompasses stores, shows (ever been to San Diego and looked at the prices there?), web-sites, catalogues, but if you want to shop there, fine. Great. Excellent.

 

Just don't slag off all UK dealers, their stock, their prices, their attitude, because that is unfair (and just plain wrong when it comes to a number of them) to a lot of hard-working, honest, customer-caring guys who do a good job a keep a lot of UK collectors happy.

 

Talk specifics, back it up with evidence, consider other factors, avoid generalisations...that is the way to construct an argument.

 

Simply telling us all that we're all w*nkers, with w*nk stock and w*nk prices, displaying w*nk attitude, is neither helpful nor right.