Hulk 180 prices?

[General Zod]

No, Overstreet lists it as the 'first full Wolverine story'.

[mudbogger2]

First FULL Appearance of Wolverine, and is the first cover appearance as well.

Guess it depends on how you define FULL apperance.

 

180 shows all of him. Why is that not a FULL apperance.

[joe_collector]

Because back in the day, people used to actually READ these books, and expected some character interaction, a show of his superpowers, a bit of personality, speech patterns, background, and obviously some fisticuffs.

 

A single panel shows nothing about him, and the basic character design of Wolverine was not introduced until 181. Until then, he was just a single 2D picture.

 

Face it, Hulk 181 wins both ways.

 

1) For readers and true fans, it has the first full appearance of Wolverine, highlighting him from first page to last.

 

2) For CGC specs, it's got a killer cover image, his very first appearance, and it looks exceptional in a CGC case.

[BronzeBruce13]

You know Vince... years ago you mentioned that I could not stop talking about this issue. I don't recall chiming in on more than one "180-181 topic" since... it was with you I think. I simply got "burned out" discussing it and since my views were posted here multiple times seemed "'nuff said". Its 2008 now and you never seem to pass on an opportunity to comment on 180-181 related topics. Honestly... aren't you burned out yet? I'm amazed at your stamina.

 

Anyway, as to this debate... I think it just doesn't matter.

 

• Hulk 181 is clearly the more significant of the 2 books based on desirability/value alone.

 

• As to 180 (and books like it), each collector must decide for himself what the relevance, collectibility, significance and desirability is. There is no "right or wrong" in how you view the issue and Wolverine's appearance in it. "It is what it is" to whomever. Some people will find the issue more significant (than how some others characterize a brief first appearance) because it is the first appearance, however brief and that ads "more relevance" for them. Other's won't. No one is wrong.. it's just perspective/opinion and frankly years after passionately getting into debates like this one and others... I've come to accept "to each his own" and let it be. It's just not that amazing to me anymore that collectors have many different ways of looking at things.

 

 

BTW... I can almost always follow your train of thought, but I don't understand this a little bit??

A single panel shows nothing about him, and the basic character design of Wolverine was not introduced until 181. Until then, he was just a single 2D picture.

[joe_collector]

BTW... I can almost always follow your train of thought, but I don't understand this a little bit??

A single panel shows nothing about him, and the basic character design of Wolverine was not introduced until 181. Until then, he was just a single 2D picture.

 

I don't see what you mean.

 

If you had purchased Hulk 180, read it, and then never read another comic as long as you lived, what could you tell me about Wolverine?

 

Now contrast that against someone who bought and read Hulk 181.

 

And BTW, I am not laughing at people who choose to BELIEVE that Hulk 180 is more personally important to them, but I am laughing (deeply) at those poor misguided souls telling us that Hulk 180 should be "$$ worth more $$" than Hulk 181.

[BronzeBruce13]

I hear you about the value, the facts speak for themselves. There is no debate re: 180 vs 181.

Even at my most "Pro-180" period 4+ years back (when you and I jacked our post counts hashing it out), I was only of the position that the book was undervalued and under recognized at that point due in part to "what I felt" was not the most accurate way to describe the appearance in the guide. Seems that was proven pretty on target no matter how you label it. And you, unintentionally helped the book's awareness too by pizzing off ArnoldT enough for him to reevaluate the use of the "cameo" term everywhere in the guide and adjust were necessary (that is funny)… but thanks

 

As for your comment, I guess what I didn't understand is that in 180 we knew he was part of the Canadian military in some way, we could see his costume well enough, knew that he was a "ballsy" lad ready to take on 2 behemoths at once... and he was no more 2D in 181. They're always 2D with the rare exception of those 3D comics with the glasses.

 

 

As to the future, could there be more of a percentage value increase for 180 5 years from now?... possibly. However, I think its made its move and has peaked at around 45-50% of 181 in the 9.6 grade. These percentages drop as the grade does. It also does not hold in the 9.8 grade where its about 25-33%

 

Currently its at around 35-40% of 181 in 9.6 as it has finally recovered from a scenario that would affect any book short term. Maybe 2 years ago or so, too many 180 9.6's (or so it seemed) hit the market in a relatively short period of time. A board member was trying to sell a somewhat unappealing copy with a high starting bid. No one bit and the owner relentlessly relisted it in every venue possible over and over and over again. This went on for some time and affected the sales/non-sales of other 9.6 copies that were available around the same time. In the aftermath, the perception of availability/oversupply in the minds of potential buyers eroded about half of the book's value at that time and drove it down close to the 1k mark (for a 9.6.)

 

It's nice to see it coming back to life... I used to buy and sell 9.4's in that range.

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

As for your comment, I guess what I didn't understand is that in 180 we knew he was part of the Canadian military in some way, we could see his costume well enough, knew that he was a "ballsy" lad ready to take on 2 behemoths at once... and he was no more 2D in 181. They're always 2D with the rare exception of those 3D comics with the glasses.

 

I see I'm going to have to slap you down with a well-placed scan that completely proves my point:

[BronzeBruce13]

ok.. consider me slapped if that makes you happy but...

we already knew his name

we got the idea he had enhanced strength since he was introduced as a "raging powerhouse"

we already got the idea he was cocky (as explained)

we already saw he had claws (I thought they were metal)

 

The only new information here is the name of the metal... adamantium, not that major a deal.

The only other thing I figure you "could" be talking about is that his claws are rendered in more detail and appear 3D?... BUT I doubt you'd make that a big point as many of the artists that have Illustrated Wolverine over the years rendered his claw differently. Most versions varied between a smooth "tubular" look to a couple of different angular 3D treatments.

 

Was adamantium even that big deal prior to Wolverine?

Besides Ultron 6+, I can't remember anything... but I don't have a steal trap as we know.

[joe_collector]

Come on, you really can't be misunderstanding the 2D/3D thing, can you? Have you never heard of character development and fully-realized 3D characters?

 

It's a concept where you breath life into the character, outlining details, giving them depth, etc,. creating a more three-dimensional hero...

 

In Hulk 180, Wolverine was a totally unrealized 2D character who appeared in a single panel.

 

In Hulk 181, we see him fight, he interacts with the other characters, we get an idea of his speech patterns and personality, he gives details of his adamantium claws, his heightened speed, and shows excellent fighting skill by standing in with two of the Marvel heavyweights.

 

In Hulk 180, we see N-O-T-H-I-N-G, absolutely nothing. Just a single image.

 

This is pretty basic stuff, and the reason why Hulk 181 is valued more than 180.

[awe4one]

In Hulk 180, we see N-O-T-H-I-N-G, absolutely nothing. Just a single image.

 

A single image is all you need. I'd argue that Wolverine wasn't Wolverine until Claremont and Byrne got ahold of the character. That's when he became interesting...and brings up the question of when does that happen? You say he was 3-D in Hulk #181. I say it didn't happen until his X-Men run. Until then he was one-note character.

 

I'm not saying #180 should command more than #181 but I also don't see much of difference between the two because the Wolverine we see in #181 isn't the character that comicdom has embraced...he's laughable in those three issues (#182 included) to be honest...

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

Sure, but we're comparing Hulk 180 and 181 - if you want to open up that can of worms, there are certainly more important books in the evolution of Wolverine. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

It's Hulk 180 vs. 181.

 

If you take two people who've never heard of Wolverine, and toss one Hulk 180 and the other Hulk 181, then ask them to describe Wolverine, his attributes, powers, personality, speech patterns, weapons, fighting skill, etc., then the one with Hulk 181 will give far more detailed answers and get a much higher score.

 

That's why it's called his first FULL appearance.

 

That's fact, and that's what I'm referring to when I state two-dimensional vs. three-dimensional characters, even though the Wolverine in Hulk 181 may have been slightly lame, and has evolved since.

 

In Hulk 181, he's still a tough little runt with unbreakable adamantium claws, heightened quickness/abilities, and a bad attitude.

[BronzeBruce13]

I wasn't quite sure to be honest... You queried "what did we know about Wolverine from the 180 panel" hence my response. Certainly he was fully fleshed out in 181 as a 3-dimensional character, no disagreement. Wasn't really sure if that was the point you were making when you showed that (1) additional panel as an example to prove your point. That did not do the job as compared to your latest post. And yes, it might not have been over everyone's head. I tend to take you more literally.

 

Later... I'm going to go try and close a deal on a 20+ LB OO SA/BA collection. Its my 2nd trip and almost every BA book is there in 7.0 to 9.2. Sweet to see extended runs with little missing.

 

[joe_collector]

Later... I'm going to go try and close a deal on a 20+ LB OO SA/BA collection. Its my 2nd trip and almost every BA book is there in 7.0 to 9.2. Sweet to see extended runs with little missing.

 

Good luck, and you can just box up all the nice picture frames and send them on down.

[BronzeBruce13]

I'm sure I can fill a few of your holes... God that just doesn't work does it.

[justin]

To add to the fire, let's say the original art for the last page in 180 came up for sale as well as the splash page of 181. Which one would sell for more? The 181 page couldn't be advertised as the first appearance of Wolverine but the 180 page could.

[joe_collector]

I'm sure I can fill a few of your holes... God that just doesn't work does it.

 

I sincerely hope not.

[mudbogger2]

 

 

If you take two people who've never heard of Wolverine, and toss one Hulk 180 and the other Hulk 181, then ask them to describe Wolverine, his attributes, powers, personality, speech patterns, weapons, fighting skill, etc., then the one with Hulk 181 will give far more detailed answers and get a much higher score.

Take those same 2 people and show them both books and ask them witch one they think is his first apperance. What would they say?

 

 

 

 

That's why it's called his first FULL appearance.

So why does the 180 not say "First Apperance" then. Even if it was not a Full apperance?

[joe_collector]

To add to the fire, let's say the original art for the last page in 180 came up for sale as well as the splash page of 181. Which one would sell for more?

 

That's an easy one - the Hulk 181 splash page, easy.

 

The Hulk 180 page is only a single panel, 1/4 to 1/3 of the page, while the 181 is the whole she-bang, with the Hulk and Wendigo as well.

 

Not even close.

[joe_collector]

So why does the 180 not say "First Apperance" then. Even if it was not a Full apperance?

 

It does say "First Cameo/Brief Appearance - Last Panel" in any notation I've seen.

[drbanner]

The most recent OS I have states "1st app. Wolverine (cameo last pg.)" for 180, and "1st full Wolverine story" for 181.

 

There's no doubt about it that the 1st appearance of Wolverine is in Hulk 180, which is why any description of Wolverine in 181 is qualified by something like "1st full appearance", etc.,. because Hulk 181 is his 2nd appearance. (thumbs u