Looking for a little info . . .

[dam60]

I wasn't an active collector at the time and have no personal basis for judgment but I was hoping that someone can confirm or deny the following based on any hard facts (ie sales or purchases that they made) or anecdotal evidence that they can relate regarding the following:

 

I have heard that during the mid to late 90s ie from 95-99 that the entire comic book industry was in very bad shape and that the golden age / silver age market was not immune. Even the true NM and better books of GA/SA books (even keys) weren't fetching 100% of guide.

 

From 95-99 I didn't buy one single comic and have no idea. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

DAM

[joe_collector]

That statement is correct for dealers and at the retail sector, and the scenario was even more depressed on EBay.

 

I've said this before, but the general public buys on strength and runs based on weakness. It's human nature.

[awe4one]

Well.....

 

The modern back issue market crashed.......hard. That is true.....

 

The SA market was OK though. Most rose in price but not nearly at the rate of the late-80s/early 90s when the rise was dramatic. What was missing was the speculators that steadily bought these at 100% and more of guide price. They bailed and dumped their collections at below market value. Ironically, most of these speculators did not have hoards of SA in their collections (mostly modern specs). So could you get SA at less than 100% of guide? Sure. But it wasn't nearly as common as your quote would relate and you could find the same raw deals now if you searched long enough....

 

I believe whoever you quoted from is confusing two issues.....

 

Can't speak for GA.....didn't collect them.

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

Sure. But it wasn't nearly as common as your quote would relate and you could find the same raw deals now if you searched long enough....

 

 

Come on Jim, you know as well as I do that pre-CGC there were insane deals to be had (especially on EBay), simply because the "fair market rate" was so freaking depressed.

 

Once CGC emerged, the speculators came out of their hovels, signed up for new CC's, got a second mortgage, and we're back to the insanity.

 

That's why it's obvious there will be a crash, as I know exactly what some comics are worth once the speculators decide to leave.

[joe_collector]

A great real-world example is Amazing Spider-man #129.

 

Pre-CGC, mid to high-grade issues on EBay were selling in the $10-$20 range. No joke! And if the scan was super-nice (NM guaranteed), and from a known EBay dealer, it might scratch its way up to $40-$50, though rarely.

 

I know, as I bought one issue and if I were a speculator, could have bought tons more.

 

Now those same issues CGC'd are selling for thousands, and even the mid-grade ones for several hundred. Why?

 

Of course the bulls will point to all sorts of reasons that would make sense (if you were on a bong pipe), but also keep in mind this same comic was selling for $200-$300 (or more) at the height of the 1990's speculator boom.

[g-man]

and with any luck this should reach $2K-2400.....I hope so.

 

#129

[awe4one]

True....the advent of eBay changed everything for internet savvy buyers. But buying "Silver Age" (i.e. I didn't say Bronze ot Modern) comics at the brick and mortar shops changed little until 1998 or so. Hell, you can still buy raw comics on eBay for less than guide. I was speaking strictly from a non-internet POV.....

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

I didn't really shop at the retail level, but at shows, dealers were offering some (what we'd now view as) insane deals, but were in reality just pricing for the market.

 

1990-94 - Speculator City, High Prices

 

1995-99 - Speculators Run and Hide, Depressed Prices

 

2000-?

[drbanner]

I wasn't an active collector at the time and have no personal basis for judgment but I was hoping that someone can confirm or deny the following based on any hard facts (ie sales or purchases that they made) or anecdotal evidence that they can relate regarding the following:

 

I have heard that during the mid to late 90s ie from 95-99 that the entire comic book industry was in very bad shape and that the golden age / silver age market was not immune. Even the true NM and better books of GA/SA books (even keys) weren't fetching 100% of guide.

 

From 95-99 I didn't buy one single comic and have no idea. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

DAM

 

Jim's correct, the statement in italics is off-base regarding gold/silver/bronze.

 

I've been buying silver and bronze age comics continuously since 1991, and can unequivocally say that NM late 60's/early 70's books were selling well above guide on ebay from 1997-1999. Ask greggy, nochips, bronty, loisandclark, etc.,. (I'm using these names as examples as I have ebay feedback from them pre-dating 2000) about the ebay NM market for these books compared to guide in the late 90's.

 

You'd have to ask the dealers about NM early silver and golden age books, but you could certainly buy low-mid grade silver at well below guide (just like you can now). There were several auction house selling NM early silver/golden age books during that time, and I believe greggy has posted some of their auction results here that show that NM silver/gold keys were not selling below NM guide during that time.

 

The "modern" market crumbled...just like it always inevitably does.

 

For some hard data, here's a snippet from August of 1998 - Vinnie sent me the Oakland list and I balked at the way overguide prices...but when I decided to pull the trigger and buy some books, many were already gone. If you want, I can send you the file with the complete list and you can perform a rigorous analysis of the asking prices vs. guide. These books sold quickly at these prices, as you can see, many of the key books are already missing from the list below.

 

Batman 200 NM $205.00 wp Oakland Copy, N. Adams

Batman 201 NM $50.00 Oakland Copy

Batman 204 NM-/NM $30.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 205 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 206 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 207 NM-/NM $30.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 209 NM-/NM $30.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 211 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 214 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 217 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 219 NM+ $65.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 223 NM/NM+ $60.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 226 NM+ $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 228 NM+ $45.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 229 MT $40.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 230 MT $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 232 NM+ $280.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 236 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 237 NM+ $130.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 239 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

Batman 240 NM $35.00 wp Oakland Copy

 

[joe_collector]

I've been buying silver and bronze age comics continuously since 1991, and can unequivocally say that NM late 60's/early 70's books were selling well above guide on ebay from 1997-1999.

 

Hey, then go right ahead and disprove my ASM 129 statements.

[FlyingDonut]

It isn't the same data. NM late 60s and early 70s books were selling for way above Guide on eBay from 1997-2000. I have sales data going back to mid-1998 and I can state without hesitation that the price jump on those book started before then.

 

Mid-grade books saw an increase in price in the late 90s, but dropped off with the introduction of CGC in 2000.

 

From a bigger standpoint, you're always saying that we can't use Hulk 181 as an example of a book that will always be going up. You can't also only use ASM 129. I'm not entirely sure what your point is - yes, ASM 129 prices have jumped through the moon with the advent of CGC books, but the price jump already happened on late Silver and very early Bronze books.

[drbanner]

I've been buying silver and bronze age comics continuously since 1991, and can unequivocally say that NM late 60's/early 70's books were selling well above guide on ebay from 1997-1999.

 

Hey, then go right ahead and disprove my ASM 129 statements:

 

"A great real-world example is Amazing Spider-man #129.

 

Pre-CGC, mid to high-grade issues on EBay were selling in the $10-$20 range. No joke! And if the scan was super-nice (NM guaranteed), and from a known EBay dealer, it might scratch its way up to $40-$50, though rarely."

 

Okay - let me pull up my spreadsheet...here it is...looks like I bought my VF+ copy of Spidey 129 on October 14, 1999 on ebay from seller (xxx - sorrry guys!) for $92. Consider your statement disproved Joe.

 

I have reams of data like this sitting right here on my hard drive...from personal experience both buying and selling, I can tell you that under $200 NM late silver/early bronze age books were easy sells at guide in the late 1990's.

[richnerd]

I must argue the point that NM books were selling below book value because between 95-99 I put together my complete NM run of Cap America and did it for a very low cost. I was searching my records and the total cost I spent for the book's 100-230 was $400. That was with spending $50 on a NM #100. I also picked up many other books at this time that I stuck away for my sons college education and most of those books are selling for 10-20 times of what I bought them for.

 

So yes I'm with JC on this one.

[sfilosa]

Understand that what CGC has really done is increase the value of TRUE HIGH GRADE COMICS.

 

Regarding Golden-Age, I bought several high-grade (or supposedly high-grade) books through Continental Comic Book auctions in CBG. They were phone auctions, and in almost all cases I paid over guide. This was in 1995-1996.

[awe4one]

Hey, then go right ahead and disprove my ASM 129 statements.

 

Can't because what you say is true. The same could be applied to MS #5 as well. All eBay comic prices in the late-90s were not reflective of the retail and dealer market. There were remarkably great deals to be had for sure but you couldn't usually couldn't get the same deals outside the Internet until 1998-99.

 

Jim

 

 

[joe_collector]

Time for a little real-world commentary on this "higher than Guide" fallacy.

 

During the speculator-90's, Guide prices did not reflect the real price of NM keys. We all know this, and although it never reached the zaniness of current CGC levels, 2X to 3X Guide, or a bit higher wasn't out of the question.

 

Keith C. was pretty open about this, and hassled Bob about this regularly in his updates. He even posted Guide-multiple buys and then even higher Guide multiple sales to prove this, along with posting some Guide-multiple offers on many NM Keys.

 

Now let's put this into perspective:

 

1992 Guide had AF #15 at $5K NM, and ASM #1 at $4K NM.

 

We all know that for true NM copies, sales prices were significantly higher, but OS never updates to the real-world value, for fear of actually (gasp) showing any corresponding decrease.

 

In 1994, it got even zanier, with OS listing only a moderate Guide price of around $5-$7K for each issue. Of course, there were many documented auction NM AF #15 sales in the $30-$50K range, but since OS used an "old date smoothing effect" these real-world prices were never listed... again, since then Bob may have to drop prices in the future.

 

So when the 1990's bust happened, these prices (and many other Keys that showed MUCH, MUCH, MUCH lower OS NM values compared to what actually they sold for) kind of hung around at the same price levels for a few years.

 

Then people would quote "higher than Guide" as some positive news for the industry, when in actuality, real-world prices had crashed big-time.

 

For example, in 1993 you buy a NM Key issue at $8K, while OS lists it at $2K, then sell it for $2.1K in 1996 (Guide is stable), and somehow that's good news? It's Over-Guide, so it must be great news for investors everywhere!!!

 

Check out the current Guide prices on Gold, Silver and Bronze KEYS today, compared to CGC 9.4 and higher values, and then take a minute to think about what spin-doctoring the industry will put on upcoming "above Guide sales!!"....

[joe_collector]

Okay - let me pull up my spreadsheet...here it is...looks like I bought my VF+ copy of Spidey 129 on October 14, 1999 on ebay from seller (xxx - sorrry guys!) for $92. Consider your statement disproved Joe.

 

 

Go back a year or two!

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to jab you, but I bought a VF/NM back then for around $35 and a F/VF for $20. I took a run at some NM copies, but that $40 price tag seemed a bit high.

 

Heck, I even nabbed a Fine for $25 not long ago.

 

Hulk no pay dumb speculator prices!

[awe4one]

I must argue the point that NM books were selling below book value because between 95-99 I put together my complete NM run of Cap America and did it for a very low cost. I was searching my records and the total cost I spent for the book's 100-230 was $400. That was with spending $50 on a NM #100.

 

Cap America has always been a notoriously bad seller. So essentially you paid $350 for 101-230. That sounds about right......

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

From a bigger standpoint, you're always saying that we can't use Hulk 181 as an example of a book that will always be going up. You can't also only use ASM 129.

 

Good point, but the fact remains that the vast majority of NM Bronze keys were selling for fractions of their current, speculator-influenced pricing.

 

What's most interesting in the case of ASM 129 was that it was also a big mover during the early 90's, and moved above $300 Guide before settling down.

 

And to be able to nab a NM copy for $40 in 1997 doesn't say much for real-world prices in the absence of speculator activity.

[sfilosa]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I must argue the point that NM books were selling below book value because between 95-99 I put together my complete NM run of Cap America and did it for a very low cost. I was searching my records and the total cost I spent for the book's 100-230 was $400. That was with spending $50 on a NM #100.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Cap America has always been a notoriously bad seller. So essentially you paid $350 for 101-230. That sounds about right......

 

Jim

 

 

The real question is, are your NM books, really NM?

 

You can NEVER look at guide prices before CGC and get an absolute true picture of pricing. Some dealers NM are CGC VF. So if someone said they sold a NM for $500 and guide was $600, did the book sell below guide? Only, if it was a true NM. If it's only a VF or VF+, it sold for over guide.

 

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!