Looking for a little info . . .

[joe_collector]

Cap America has always been a notoriously bad seller. So essentially you paid $350 for 101-230. That sounds about right......

 

Oh yeah, NM runs of late-Silver Hulk, Cap, Thor, DD and others were available to fractions of Guide. Even Bob lowered the price on these mid-range dead-beats.

 

If you were buying NM Silver ASM or FF, expect to pay Guide or more, but still a serious drop from the real-world price levels of 1993-4.

[joe_collector]

So if someone said they sold a NM for $500 and guide was $600, did the book sell below guide? Only, if it was a true NM. If it's only a VF or VF+, it sold for over guide.

 

But you're kind of missing the fact that Comic Book Grading has evolved over the years, and (hopefully) OS has kept pace in their pricing.

 

If not, then...

[drbanner]

Good point, but the fact remains that the vast majority of NM Bronze keys were selling for fractions of their current, speculator-influenced pricing.

 

This is irrelevant to DAM's inquiry:

 

"I have heard that during the mid to late 90s ie from 95-99 that the entire comic book industry was in very bad shape and that the golden age / silver age market was not immune. Even the true NM and better books of GA/SA books (even keys) weren't fetching 100% of guide."

 

NM late 60's/early 70's books were fetching well above guide on ebay and in the retail (comic book dealers) sector in the late 1990's, as Donut and I have attested to and both have hard data to support. Spin as you wish, but I believe Dave has the corrrect answer to his question...

[joe_collector]

NM late 60's/early 70's books were fetching well above guide on ebay and in the retail (comic book stores) sector in the late 1990's, as Donut and I have attested to and both have hard data to support.

 

Sure, but check out some VERIFIED NM Silver and Bronze sales from 1992-94, and then compare those with Guide.

 

Sure, the book may have sold at Guide or above in 1998, but did that matter to the "investor" who paid real-world market rates of 3X Guide in 1994?

 

In a few years, will a CGC 9.6 Hulk 181 "over guide" sale matter if the "investor" loses 75% of their speculator-induced investment?

 

If you're looking for spin-doctoring, please re-read your own posts.

[greggy]

[drbanner]

Whatcha think greggy, were you buying Jim's (loisandclark's) NM DC's back in '97/98/99 for less than guide?

 

Me neither...

[FlyingDonut]

NM late 60's/early 70's books were fetching well above guide on ebay and in the retail (comic book stores) sector in the late 1990's, as Donut and I have attested to and both have hard data to support.

 

Sure, but check out some VERIFIED NM Silver and Bronze sales from 1992-94, and then compare those with Guide.

 

Sure, the book may have sold at Guide or above in 1998, but did that matter to the "investor" who paid real-world market rates of 3X Guide in 1994?

 

In a few years, will a CGC 9.6 Hulk 181 "over guide" sale matter if the "investor" loses 75% of their speculator-induced investment?

 

If you're looking for spin-doctoring, please re-read your own posts.

 

What you're saying is irrelevant to Dave's question. He didn't ask about speculators or investors.

[drbanner]

What you're saying is irrelevant to Dave's question. He didn't ask about speculators or investors.

 

[sborock]

David-

I don't know about the Modern market but, during that time, my friends and I were paying way over guide for TRUE 8.0 GA and 9.2 SA. We were paying as much as 10 times guide for the right pieces.

 

Haspel was paying 10 times guide for certain LOW TO MID GRADE pre- code horror comics at that time.

[joe_collector]

What you're saying is irrelevant to Dave's question. He didn't ask about speculators or investors.

 

You're right, and no offense, but Dave asked an insipid and totally useless question, along the lines of "are CGC 9.8 Silver Keys selling for above Guide?".

 

The real question:

 

Were comics in 1995-99 selling for at, or above, 1994's real-world market rates?

 

No freaking way Jose!!!

 

[joe_collector]

I don't know about the Modern market but, during that time, my friends and I were paying way over guide for TRUE 8.0 GA and 9.2 SA. We were paying as much as 10 times guide for the right pieces.

 

So let me get this straight, you were buying comics at 10X Guide prices before CGC?

 

Call the newspapers!!

[drbanner]

You're right, and no offense, but Dave asked an insipid and totally useless question, along the lines of "are CGC 9.8 Silver Keys selling for above Guide?".

 

The real question:

 

Were comics in 1995-99 selling for at, or above, 1994's real-world market rates?

 

No freaking way Jose!!!

 

Anyone know what a 6-pack of beer costs in China these days?

[sborock]

I don't know about the Modern market but, during that time, my friends and I were paying way over guide for TRUE 8.0 GA and 9.2 SA. We were paying as much as 10 times guide for the right pieces.

 

So let me get this straight, you were buying comics at 10X Guide prices before CGC?

 

Call the newspapers!!

 

I was a collector waaaaaaay before '95 and could have made out like a bandit if I did not feel it would have been a conflict of interest by keeping them. Sold them all RAW

[joe_collector]

I was a collector waaaaaaay before '95 and could have made out like a bandit if I did not feel it would have been a conflict of interest by keeping them. Sold them all RAW

 

Yeah, I know, and I was just joking around about the "Fallacy of the OS Guide" and how years later we can look at a NM book value and think it actually sold for that, and compute "past returns" using these fictitious numbers.

 

"Wow, if only I had bought a NM copy of AF 15 in 1993 for $6K".

 

Too bad buddy, but it would have cost you at least $30K, and probably $40 or $50K!

[awe4one]

Now that I'm on my home computer, I can expound on the subject.....

 

JC's correct....you could get comics on eBay, even NM comics, for significantly less than the dealers. There were exceptions. ASM #121/122 for example almost always sold over guide regardless of grade. Neal Adams drawn comics as well. That's changed a bit now and only the HGs get the action.

 

I'm curious to see the "hard" data saying NM Bronze was selling above guide because that was not what I was seeing on eBay at the time at all.

 

But my previous answer to DAM still stands. Outside the Internet, HGs were selling at guide or better. Didn't see a noticeable drop until about 1999-2000 and that lasted about a year until CGC mania really broke.

 

Made me ponder a question as well.....has the comics market ever seen price increases on the scale that developed since CGC came on the scene? I've heard stories of GA comics (Timely especially) almost overnight soaring to silly money (at the time) levels. Has there ever been a price phenomenon such as we've seen with the start of CGC?

 

Jim

 

 

[FlComicFan]

Nope CGC triggered the biggest overnight increase in prices for high grade ever. True you did have to pay over guide for some Gold and Silver books that were either rare or rare in super high grade but I dont thinkl anyone was ever paying multiples of guide for Moderns and common books in garde like the 1968 Marvel explosion books. Bronze age there were many books that were priced at multples but still nowhere near post CGC levels When Weird War 1 was booking at $25 in the guide I had a chance to buy a NM+ copy at $100 which the dealer had for several months till he moved it.I thought the price was ridiculous. Post CGC a 9.4 is $1000? Same effect in trading cards which have since dropped dramatically as far as modern and common stuff

[FlComicFan]

PS just before CGC came out late 1997-98 or so several dealers I knew were dumping there high grade silver and buying up Golden Age for fear that Silver had its run and would be dormant for a while after the huge run up from the late 80's on Guess they were just a little bit off

[joe_collector]

Made me ponder a question as well.....has the comics market ever seen price increases on the scale that developed since CGC came on the scene? I've heard stories of GA comics (Timely especially) almost overnight soaring to silly money (at the time) levels. Has there ever been a price phenomenon such as we've seen with the start of CGC?

 

Yep, just check out 1986-87 Guide prices on Silver and Bronze (non-#1) keys like FF 48, ASM 50, Hulk 181, ASM 129, or just about any first appearance, and then check it at the beginning of the speculator boom of 1989-91.

 

Some of these were commons, or broken out at $10-$20 pre-speculator spike, and many were $1K and over at the end. That period in time far outpaces anything CGC brought to the table.

 

Mid-1987 OS Update (and even here. prices had moved up from 87 Guide levels):

 

ASM 50: $12

ASM 129: $20 (up from common)

FF 48: $25

Captain America 100: $10

Hulk 102: $17

Avengers 58: $10

Hulk 180: $10

Hulk 181: $30

Hulk 182: $8

Luke Cage 1: $3

Marvel Premiere: $5

Marvel Spotlight 2: $1.80

Marvel Spotlight 5: $8

Marvel Feature 1: $8

Defenders 1: $10 (?)

 

Or even:

 

ASM 14: $73

[FlComicFan]

In defense the Bronze Age books on your list were never available at those prices. A lot of that stuff was held off the market by most dealers who either didnt think it was worth their time to sell of Bronze or had a hunch prices would shoot up eventually. I had a want list of Bronze age keys which numbered over a 100 books I worked on it from the early 1990's till CGC came on the scene I only managed to find a third of the books I wanted in NM and a lot of that was thanks to early Ebay when you could actually get high grade books below even the book price then if you were willing to send back many overgraded books till you found the sellers who knew what they hell they were doing.

[joe_collector]

In defense the Bronze Age books on your list were never available at those prices.

 

I know, but the Silver was, as I bought an Avenger 58 for some ungodly low amount mail-order, and almost bought a few more like Cap 100 and FF 48-50. Just call up Joe Koch and get multiples at a discount.

 

Too bad my NM Byrne addiction was eating my funds.

 

The Bronze Guide numbers were mostly "buy figures" or deflated values at which Bob gave to dealers, to work their "30% of book" when people brought boks in to sell.

 

Some were available (like low demand ones), while others were definitely held back.