Your thoughts on PQ in regard to sales value

[arexcrooke]

If one thinks objectively about page quality, it's difficult to refute the importance of supple white pages. The whiter the pages the longer the book will exist.

 

This is incorrect. All books, even white pagers, have levels of acid that will turn them into dust if not stored/handled properly. A white pager will last no longer than a cream pager. Any book, whatever the page quality, will deteriorate fairly quickly to brittleness, through the process of acid hydrolysis, if stored incorrectly.

 

If you collect white pagers because that's your collecting preference, that's one thing, but to choose them because you think they will last longer than other PQ books is scientifically incorrect.

 

Thanks for stating the obvious.

 

Protecting books against storage and handling damage - as well as storing them in cool, dark, dry conditions - are the most important factors in preserving them.

 

If one starts the proper preservation process with white pages, that book will last longer than one that's already off-white or worse.

 

 

 

 

Really? By how many more years? decades? etc? I would love to know the scientific basis for your statement.

I could be wrong but just intuitively I would have to agree with Moondog's thinking. Didn't c/ow pages get that way because they were stored less optimally then white pages? So if you took 2 books - one with white pq and one with c/ow pq and stored them in the exact same conditions: the white pq book would deteriorate at the same rate as the c/ow book but the c/ow book would ultimately turn to dust faster then the white pq book simply because it's deterioration was already in an advanced state. Whether it be 100 years or 10000 years...

 

The two books would deteriorate at around the same rate.

right - I agree. But because the C/OW book had a nice jump start in the deterioration process it would ultimately deteriorate at the same rate and it woudl always have a lower pq than the one that started out white. So in 1000 years when the white pq copy turns c/ow the other copy will be brittle. right?

You are also assuming that the books all started out with White pages to begin with. Paper stock differed greatly and there were times when the color of the paper (as far as levels of whiteness) would vary greatly

[Spidersense]

There is nothing wrong with cr-ow pages. People are looking into this too much. Some of these books took 80 years to get to cr-ow and that was when they were stored in an attic some where. I will never pass up a book with cr-ow pages because it is not that big of a deal.

[peewee22]

Before CGC, page quality was as important as the overall grade of the book when grading GA and SA. Nice books with white pages always commanded a premium whereas nice books with creamy/tanny/yellowy pages were sold below guide. Books with off-white pages, or off-white to white basically sold for guide.

 

The page quality of Church books was as important a factor as the grade itself.

 

Now that the books have been encapsulated, page quality has become almost irrelevant. Encapsulation has increased the value of thousands of books with creamy pages at the expense of collectors who really don't know any better or been told it's unimportant.

 

The acceptance of the idea that since you "can't see the pages so they aren't important anymore" by the collecting community proves that the vast majority of today's collectors are less informed about their hobby, less interested in learning how to grade properly, and are far more gullible than collectors who preceded them. Ignorance is bliss.

 

Today's collectors for the most part only care about how the cover looks and the number in the corner - which is exactly what CGC, Heritage, Comiclink and the other auction sites want them to think.

 

If one thinks objectively about page quality, it's difficult to refute the importance of supple white pages. The whiter the pages the longer the book will exist. The whiter the pages the more attractive the book is. The whiter the pages the rarer the book is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To all on this thread: A book can be un-encapsulated so page quality, to me (and others), IS important.

[SilverRich]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

[SilverRich]

Personally, I think it is vastly over-rated. If a book is tan, it is one thing, but honestly, I have heard that not much thought and consideration goes into page quality labeling. Heard that from a current grader.

 

I agree for the most part, Dale, but I do notice a price drop in sales of books with cr/ow pages. I'm simply trying to figure out a ballpark percentage compared to the other designations.

 

 

[Icculus308win]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

 

 

 

It is such a fun place!

 

I tried staying on track for you, though I don't think I had any pertinent advice for you!

[500Club]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

 

I tend to avoid cr-ow books. That's personal preference.

 

My thoughts would be that bronze/copper cr-ow books will see a 15-30% drop, silver 10-20%, and GA may not matter at all. This is based on my personal observations only. The bigger slab dealers will likely be able to pin things down a bit better.

[comixcroz]

One way that we can get some data on this subject would be if GPA started keeping records on the pq. It wouldn't be necessary to have a seperate average like they do for pedigrees. But I would love to see pq designations in the detailed views.

 

since you're participating in this topic, what are your thoughts on adding that in the future, gpanalysis?

 

As a subscriber I find your service helps me out a lot in selling and buying - this would just make your awesome service even better

[SilverRich]

I was thinking of mentioning that, but I'm sure that George (GPA) has heard enough of that question. It would seem like much more work involved.

 

I agree with 500Club that it doesn't matter too much in GA, but in BA/CA I would assume it to be a death sentence to HG collectors.

 

I should have specified SA, because that's pretty much all I collect. I'm also avoiding it nowadays, but have had some books slabbed with the intention of selling which came back cr/ow. I agree with about 10-20% on SA.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[SilverRich]

 

I tried staying on track for you, though I don't think I had any pertinent advice for you!

 

 

Don't sweat it, friend-o.... after checking your other post's, I figured as much. Plus I'm not really a hockey fan anyway.

[gpanalysis]

I was thinking of mentioning that, but I'm sure that George (GPA) has heard enough of that question. It would seem like much more work involved.

 

I agree with 500Club that it doesn't matter too much in GA, but in BA/CA I would assume it to be a death sentence to HG collectors.

 

I should have specified SA, because that's pretty much all I collect. I'm also avoiding it nowadays, but have had some books slabbed with the intention of selling which came back cr/ow. I agree with about 10-20% on SA.

 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

You might be interested to know that for just under 80% of the transactions in GPA recorded for books published before 1980 (and sold from 2007 onwards) have the CGC serial number (barcode number) listed. From this you can get the information on PQ and label notes through the Collector's Society website (if you are a member).

 

I appreciate for the other 20%, the information is not there. We are looking at ways to include PQ for all sales - it may be something we introduce for the more popular/heavily traded titles first, and then work through others. We would like to try and "fill in the gaps" in some automated way, especially for eBay sales, but it would mean some errors would arise. In the end it may need a fair bit of eye-balling.

 

It's great that most of our reporting partners also send us serial number info, a couple do not. We're working on them.

[Moondog]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

 

It's too bad that the thread got derailed. The point of my post was that prior to CGC PQ was extremely important and warranted premiums and discounts depending on the how white or dark the pages were.

 

Clearly it's not as important today because the books are encapsulated. As more than one collector has pointed out in this thread though - that doesn't matter to them - PQ is very important.

 

I hope GPA can figure a way to track PQ. It would be a very valuable addition to their service.

 

 

 

[SilverRich]

You're doing a wonderful job as it is, George. I remember e-mailing you with a question when I first started using your service, and you personally called me back within the hour to help me. I apologize if my statement came off the wrong way, but it was intended to be in your defense.

 

I'm really not that concerned with PQ, unless we're talking Tan or brittle, but was simply trying to get an idea on how to price some books accordingly to recent sales. Thanks for your input.

 

Rich

[SilverRich]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

 

It's too bad that the thread got derailed. The point of my post was that prior to CGC PQ was extremely important and warranted premiums and discounts depending on the how white or dark the pages were.

 

Clearly it's not as important today because the books are encapsulated. As more than one collector has pointed out in this thread though - that doesn't matter to them - PQ is very important.

 

I hope GPA can figure a way to track PQ. It would be a very valuable addition to their service.

 

 

 

See the post from George above yours.

 

In my opinion, the only problem lies when you're going from WP to CR/OW. I think the difference between ow/w to ow is almost non-existent to most people. I should have made a better point from the git-go and it would have made more sense. I do appreciate the thoughts of everyone here. Next time I start an opinion thread, I'll think it out a bit more beforehand.

 

 

 

[Broken Shakespear]

This thread unfortunately turned into a debate on how much longer WP will last over CR/OW years down the road. This is not significant due to 2012.

 

My main point was to get an idea on the perceived difference in value, because I'm going to be selling some key books that have cr/ow pages and wanted to be fair in setting an asking price.

 

Thanks to all who gave their opinions, now, since I mentioned selling, you wise guys can start posting that cr/ow should be a 50% discount. (thumbs u

 

It's too bad that the thread got derailed. The point of my post was that prior to CGC PQ was extremely important and warranted premiums and discounts depending on the how white or dark the pages were.

 

Clearly it's not as important today because the books are encapsulated. As more than one collector has pointed out in this thread though - that doesn't matter to them - PQ is very important.

 

I hope GPA can figure a way to track PQ. It would be a very valuable addition to their service.

 

 

 

Well, my experience is the complete opposite. Prior to the Overstreet Grading Guide 1st Edition (so around 1992 if I remember correctly), I had never had or heard of a single person try using page quality to negotiate price unless it was just something extreme, like brittle pages, mold, or water staining.

 

It wasn't until after slabbing started and became popular that I saw price differences appear based on PQ, and started seeing customers try to use that as a bargaining tactic on raw books.

 

Now, my experience has been that page quality does effect the price of a book in the current market, raw or slabbed. In the past couple of years, I have sold several high grade silver slabs, some multiple copies of the same book. Others, I tracked sales of books that had graded the same on GPA, ComicLink, Heritage, etc. to make sure I was asking a fair price.

 

What I have found is that on a high grade silver (9.4 and up), and books that are sold fairly often (6 or more copies per year sell) my books with C-OW pages sold for 10-15% less than the copies with OW-W. I really didn't see much, if any, consistent price difference between OW-W and W. Sometimes there might have been a 5% or less premium for white pages, but other times it didn't matter.

 

On books that sell very infrequently slabbed (maybe less than 2 times per year, or even less often than once per year), page quality really did'n't seem to matter as long as it was C-OW or better.

 

These were all non-key HG Silver Age Marvels and DCs mostly, selling for $200 - $500 per book. I don't know how high dollar, high grade key books would be effected, I could see an arguement for less effect and for more effect.

 

I think books that have 100s or 1000's of HG copies (Hulk 181's, ASM 129's, GS X-Men #1, etc) are likely effected more by page quality because they sell so often and there are so many of them.

[Broken Shakespear]

I think part of all this is the ...

 

"Mine is bigger than yours" complex that many collector's have.

 

At the dawn of time there was ...

 

"You grade to loosely and my NM books are better than your NM books because I'm a better grader! HAHA!"

 

Then came a 3rd part grading system (CGC) ...

 

"My Batman #181 is better than your Batman #181 because mine is a 9.4 and yours is a crappy 9.2! HAHA!

 

Then everyone with money obtained 9.8 copies of all the hot books and they were left with a delimma until...

 

"We all have Amazing Fantasy #15's in 9.6, but mine has white pages, and your crappy copies only have off white or cream pages! HAHA!"

 

Now everyone has to have white pages, but they don't realize that it won't end here. Eventually everyone will have 9.8 copies with white pages and the market will manufacture some other way to invent value and suck more money out of collectors, because everyone needs a new ruler to show that their's is bigger than yours.

[cloudofwit]

:frown: