Showcase #4 - shifting preferences? BB28 the "new" 1st SA DC?

[joe_collector]

Perhaps noone to argue, but it doesn't stop anyone from questioning...I'm not seeing the legitimacy of the reasoning yet.

 

Perhaps because you weren't there?

 

P.S. Adam Strange, Tommy Tomorrow, and Rip Hunter would fit the whole space/sci-fi angle pretty well, not to mention the sci-fi impact on various series, such as Legion of SH.

[Rocketeer]

Perhaps noone to argue, but it doesn't stop anyone from questioning...I'm not seeing the legitimacy of the reasoning yet.

 

Perhaps because you weren't there?

 

P.S. Adam Strange, Tommy Tomorrow, and Rip Hunter would fit the whole space/sci-fi angle pretty well, not to mention the sci-fi impact on various series, such as Legion of SH.

 

Actually Tommy Tomorrow was Golden Age...Real Fact #6..Jan 1947

[fantastic_four]

The rise of sci-fi permeates all media of the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, including literature, film, radio, and television. Were there a bunch of space superheroes following Adam Strange I'm unfamiliar with?

[joe_collector]

Actually Tommy Tomorrow was Golden Age...Real Fact #6..Jan 1947

 

Yeah, but didn't he have a new constume?

[joe_collector]

The rise of sci-fi permeates all media of the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, including literature, film, radio, and television. Were there a bunch of space superheroes following Adam Strange I'm unfamiliar with?

 

The rise of super heroes permeates the 30's and 40's, and many continued on into the 50's, 60's, and are even printed today. Amazing but true.

 

On a serious note, one thing that I find important about Comet, Strange and Manhunter, was that they were entirely new concepts, not just retreaded Golden Age characters. And I'd say MARTIAN Manhunter was also space/sci-fi.

[Moriarty]

Not knowing anything about Captain Comet, someone explain to me how he's so significant when he's been cancelled for decades and when, as far as I know, he spawned almost zero similar major science-fiction comic characters? I could be wrong about that since I haven't read early Strange Adventures...so those who have, share it with us, what's great about this guy? Rocketeer's point that he never even got his own title sounds relevant as well.

 

Not saying that CC was a major character by any means, but the book inspired other sci-fi heroes to spawn such as Adam Strange & Space Ranger in the DC SA Universe. Sure if you're comparing CC to DC icons like Superman etc, then the Strange Adventure run is pretty insignificant, but compare it with other sci-fi series like Mystery In Space, Weird Fantasy & Weird Science, then it's right up there.

 

Understandably, Rocketeer's point regarding CC not even getting his own title sounds justified as there is always limited appeal for sci-fi series & the character was mothed-balled after 40 issues. However, please remember that Iron Man started out the same way in the Marvel Universe through TOS & was eventually given his own title much later on.

 

Point is, Strange Adventures 9 will never be as important as the other Super-Hero keys mentioned, but then again Planet Comics wasn't exactly everyone's cup of tea either. Just my 2 pence.

[Rip]

Interesting small note the 1976 Overstreet (6) says tec 225 Intro and 1st app. Martian Manhunter The 1st National Silver Age hero (value $10)

 

Showcase 4 value by the way was $100

[joe_collector]

Well since I wasn't alive then I can't say, but everyone seems to think his success led to the rebirth of superheroes...I can't argue with it.

 

This really comes down to your definition of a super hero.

 

If sci-fi or space-faring is out, then what about the Silver Age revisions of the Green Lantern, Hawkman, along with Silver Age intros like Martian Manhunter, Adam Strange, Rip Hunter, Legion of Superheroes, among others.

 

P.S., did you know Captain Comet was the very first so-dubbed Mutant in comics?

[tth2]

Great thread!

 

I believe that Showcase 4 may be the ONLY DC Silver key that is fully valued in the Guide, if not slightly overpriced. It is so much more expensive than the next most valuable DC silver book. That, and the fact that once you get into 6 figures the universe of potential buyers for almost any silver age book decreases dramatically, is probably the main reason why no one is paying big multiples for it.

 

B&B 28, on the other hand, is undervalued, along with every other major DC silver key. So if a really sharp copy comes along, it will probably sell at multiples and appear to be generating more interest than the Showcase 4. But I seriously doubt that a B&B 28 (except maybe in 9.8) would pierce the $100k barrier. (By the way, does anyone know who has the CGC 9.4 B&B 28?)

 

There is a line of discussion in this thread regarding price and importance/ historical significance. While of course there is a high degree of correlation, the two do not always equate, nor should they, necessarily. In my opinion, Showcase 4 marks the beginning of the Silver Age. Getting biblical for a second, SC 4 begat Flash, which begat JLA, which begat Fantastic Four, which then jump-started the Silver Age. It is therefore the most important Silver Age book, or at least the most important Silver Age DC book. Whether it should command the highest price must take the demand component into consideration. JLA certainly seems to be more popular than solo Flash so I wouldn't be shocked if B&B 28 crept up on SC 4.

 

Marvel actually provides a good illustration of this dynamic. In my opinion, FF 1 is clearly more important than AF 15, because without a successful FF comic, there would be no Marvel age, Stan Lee would have continued writing the short stories found in the pre-hero Marvels, and there probably would be no Spider-man. For a long time, FF 1 was the most valuable Marvel, but AF 15 has blown past it because Spidey is Marvel's most popular and successful character and demand is greater.

 

And lest folks think that Action 1 has always indisputably been the most valuable comic, at various times credible dealers have advanced the notion that it should be Marvel Comics 1 (because Marvel became more successful than DC and this was the first Marvel) and then during the height of Bat-mania when the first movie came out, Detective 27 (because Batman was more popular and successful, ala the whole FF-Spidey dynamic). I remember one prominent dealer saying that the only reason Action 1 remained the most valuable comic was that the Milehigh Action 1 was in much better condition than the best known Tec 27, but if there had been a comparable copy of Tec 27, it would've sold at a higher price! Seems sacrilege today, and I'm not saying I agreed with any of those dealers, but it shows how nothing is set in stone, and things can change dramatically within the space of 10-15 years.

 

[fantastic_four]

JLA certainly seems to be more popular than solo Flash so I wouldn't be shocked if B&B 28 crept up on SC 4.

 

If that's the case, I wonder why BB28 hasn't taken the Amazing Fantasy 15 route and eclipsed the price of Showcase 4?

[awe4one]

I don't doubt you on the historical significance. So how does that translate into buying appeal? As I'm completing the major Marvel runs, I'm beginning to look at DCs...and as I look at Silver titles, Justice League appeals to me greatly with characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern in it, whereas I'm not seeing much "cool" appeal with Showcase 4. It reminds me of Amazing Fantasy 15 versus FF #1...FF #1 started the Marvel age, but AF15 is definitely more desirable.

 

But that's a personal bias. You are more attracted to BB #28. Doesn't negate the appeal and historical impact of Show #4. If you put two identical graded copies of these issues for sale and offered them for the same price....8 times out of 10 the #4 will win.....

 

Jim

[fantastic_four]

You are more attracted to BB #28. Doesn't negate the appeal and historical impact of Show #4.

 

Actually I know next to nothing about these DC titles...never read them, never seen them in person. So I wouldn't say Brave and the Bold 28 appeals more to me, I'd say that as I begin looking at DC more than I have in the past, it makes more sense that this title should be more appealing because it's all of DC's absolute premiere heroes joining together as a group.

 

I get the history behind Showcase 4, just like I get the history behind Fantastic Four #1. But even though I'm FF-biased, it makes sense to me that FF would be worth less than AF15--Spidey is more popular. So I'm left not understanding why BB28 isn't more desirable than Showcase 4. It's not because I'm arguing that BB28 has greater historical significance, but that it should have a broader appeal to more collectors. Doesn't it? I hear some saying it does and others saying it doesn't. Sales of Flash versus JLA over the last few decades suggest to me that JLA is more popular.

[awe4one]

Actually I know next to nothing about these DC titles...never read them, never seen them in person. So I wouldn't say Brave and the Bold 28 appeals more to me, I'd say that as I begin looking at DC more than I have in the past, it makes more sense that this title should be more appealing because it's all of DC's absolute premiere heroes joining together as a group.

 

First...let me say I understand where you're coming from.....

 

Show #4 is a first appearance of a Silver age character (if you disregard Det #225) and regarded as the first "SA" comic.

 

BB #28 is the first "SA" team book.

 

Big difference there. First appearances have always been more desirable than 1st group titles. At least when discussing SA titles. Look at the prices for Avengers #4 for example.

 

Jim

[murph0]

Look at the prices for Avengers #4 for example.

 

Jim

 

Compared to what? If you meant to compare it to Avengers #1. Avengers #1 is the more valuable book.

 

Brian

[awe4one]

Look at the prices for Avengers #4 for example.

 

Jim

 

Compared to what? If you meant to compare it to Avengers #1. Avengers #1 is the more valuable book.

 

Sure. Just pointing out that character 1st appearances are more sought after. I can see that it wasn't a very good example. Tales to Astonish #27 is a better example. 1st App of minor character that was a founding member of Avengers. Despite not being a major character in the Marvel mythos, his first issue is more valuable, or on par depending on the day, than Avengers #1, a title that is still on the racks.

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

If you put two identical graded copies of these issues for sale and offered them for the same price....8 times out of 10 the #4 will win.....

 

This kind of statement makes my head ache.

 

In a perfect world, where comic values, and resale flipping, would not enter into it, I'd take that bet. I really would, because once you take the cash out of the equation, who in the world would want The Flash?

 

Of course, the scenario you're outlining is akin to:

 

So we have a $50 bill and a $100 bill on the table, now if I offer them both up for $50, more people will choose the $100.

[awe4one]

If you put two identical graded copies of these issues for sale and offered them for the same price....8 times out of 10 the #4 will win.....

 

This kind of statement makes my head ache.

 

In a perfect world, where comic values, and resale flipping, would not enter into it, I'd take that bet. I really would, because once you take the cash out of the equation, who in the world would want The Flash?

 

I would....

 

Jim

[tth2]

JLA certainly seems to be more popular than solo Flash so I wouldn't be shocked if B&B 28 crept up on SC 4.

 

If that's the case, I wonder why BB28 hasn't taken the Amazing Fantasy 15 route and eclipsed the price of Showcase 4?

 

I think the main reason is that high grade copies of B&B 28 never come on the market, so there's no way to gauge just how strong demand really is. It's just not like Marvel, where there is at least some transactional volume in even the rarest high grade keys, like Hulk #1, let alone transactions of NM AF 15s, which are almost "common". As an aside, I wonder whether Tom Brulato, if he could only own one, would prefer to own the sole FF #1 in 9.6 (which I believe he does) or the sole AF #15 in 9.6 (which I believe he doesn't).

 

The highest B&B #28 I've ever seen up for sale is a 8.5 copy, in either raw or slabbed form. It's hard to gauge prices when there is a total absence of transactional data, in which case all you have is Bob Overstreet putting his finger in the wind and guess-timating prices up 5-10% a year because there's no basis for him to jack the price up. Although I don't think B&B 28 in 9.4 would pierce the $100k barrier, I think that if it went onto the market, it would show that its current Guide price is a joke and at least close up the gap with SC 4.

 

[lou_fine]

Actually I know next to nothing about these DC titles...never read them, never seen them in person. So I wouldn't say Brave and the Bold 28 appeals more to me, I'd say that as I begin looking at DC more than I have in the past, it makes more sense that this title should be more appealing because it's all of DC's absolute premiere heroes joining together as a group.

 

I get the history behind Showcase 4, just like I get the history behind Fantastic Four #1. But even though I'm FF-biased, it makes sense to me that FF would be worth less than AF15--Spidey is more popular. So I'm left not understanding why BB28 isn't more desirable than Showcase 4. It's not because I'm arguing that BB28 has greater historical significance, but that it should have a broader appeal to more collectors. Doesn't it? I hear some saying it does and others saying it doesn't. Sales of Flash versus JLA over the last few decades suggest to me that JLA is more popular.

 

FF;

 

Based upon your argument, you seem to be implying that BB #28 should be more appealing because it's the first grouping of heores as compared to SC #4. As a result of this greater appeal, BB #28 should then be more desirable and also priced higher in the marketplace. If you feel this scenario should be correct in the DC universe, than should not the following scenario also apply for the Marvel universe:

 

Since Avengers #1 is the first grouping of Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Ant-Man, & Wasp; than it must follow that Avengers #1 should be worth more than either JIM #83, TOS #39, Hulk #1, or TTA #27. I do not seem to seem this in the current Marvel marketplace. In fact, I am willing to place bets that any Marvel collector including yourself would be willing to take any of the individual first appearance books over Avengers #1 by a long shot (with the possible exception of TTA #27). IMHO

[joe_collector]

When you compare a rare, vintage book like B&B 28 to Avengers 1, it makes my head ache. Let's keep with apples to apples, shall we?

 

If not, why not bring The Champions into it...