COIE and Batman

[ignimbrite]

I was wondering about the the difference between the golden age batman and the silver age version. Was there ever a break in the publication of Batman books like with Flash and others which made the reasoning for two version make more sense? Is there an issue where the 'new' silver age batman exists all of the sudden?

[Zonker]

There really isn't a clear-cut division. Personally, even though the early Silver Age JLAs had Batman without the yellow oval around the chest emblem, I've always considered the "Silver Age" Batman to arrive with the New Look yellow oval chest emblem, beginning with Julie Schwartz assuming the editorship, and bringing with him Carmine Infantino as cover artist and artist for half the Detective Comics interiors. Detective #327 and Batman #164 would be the 1st "SA issues," even though they do not appear until 1964. That leaves the weird sci-fi Batman of the late 1950s, early 1960s behind, along with Batwoman, the original Bat-girl, Bat-hound, Bat-Mite etc. etc.

 

Others will certainly disagree with this arrangement.

[Comicopolis]

I thought there was a clear cut division between when the GA Bats and Supes gave way to their SA versions? I read somewhere about the exact issue numbers when this happened.

 

Somebody tell me when this was so I don't have to go looking for where I read that!

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Tec 225 I think was the first SA issue. 327 for the "new look"

[RockMyAmadeus]

There really isn't a clear-cut division..

 

That's pretty much it. There really is no clear-cut division for Supes, Bats, OR Wonder Woman....not to mention Aquaman, Superboy, or Green Arrow.

 

They were all essentially the same characters throughout the Golden and Silver Ages (and beyond.)

 

The only one of those who got anything substantially different was GA with his costume change in B&B #85, coming in at the very tale end of the Silver Age.

 

Even today, these characters are essentially the same characters who appeared in the 1940's, with only moderate and superficial changes. Nothing anywhere near as distinct as Flash, Green Lantern, or even Hawkman/Hawkwoman.

[ignimbrite]

I had always thought there was a clear-cut decision that I was just missing. Is there an issue # that anyone knows of which shows the first ackowledgement of two Batman's (or Aquaman, WW, etc.)?

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Flash and Green Lantern didnt change. The SA characters are different characters, and the GA ones are still the same.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I had always thought there was a clear-cut decision that I was just missing. Is there an issue # that anyone knows of which shows the first ackowledgement of two Batman's (or Aquaman, WW, etc.)?

 

The GA Batman is the same one as today. DC had multiple universes. The most popular Batman besides the one we are all familiar with was Earth 2 batman who died in issue 462 of Advneture Comics

[RockMyAmadeus]

Flash and Green Lantern didnt change. The SA characters are different characters, and the GA ones are still the same.

 

 

"The Flash" was the name of a character named Jay Garrick from 1940-1951.

 

"The Flash" was the name of a character named Barry Allen from 1956-1985, with a completely different costume, origin, etc.

 

"Green Lantern" was the name of a character named Alan Scott from 1940-1951.

 

"Green Lantern" was the name of a character named Hal Jordan from 1959-1994.(And probably beyond that...)

 

Therefore...the character using that named CHANGED.

 

OY.

[Comicopolis]

I had always thought there was a clear-cut decision that I was just missing. Is there an issue # that anyone knows of which shows the first ackowledgement of two Batman's (or Aquaman, WW, etc.)?

 

The GA Batman is the same one as today. DC had multiple universes. The most popular Batman besides the one we are all familiar with was Earth 2 batman who died in issue 462 of Advneture Comics

 

How could the Batman of today be the same as the GA Batman since, as you rightly pointed out, he died in Adventure Comics #462?

 

My understanding is that there is a point when the WW, Supes & Bats titles switched from the GA character to their SA counterpart.

 

Now I'm going to have to find where I read that info about 6 months ago!

[Comicopolis]

I've always wondered what were the actual issue numbers of the Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman titles where the switch from GA to SA happened.

 

The OSPG has the first Silver Age issues of these characters listed as coinciding with Showcase #4 (9-10/56) 1st SA Flash:

 

Monthly Titles

Action-#221 (10/56)

Adventure-#229 (10/56)

Detective-#236 (10/56)

 

Bi-Monthly Titles

Batman-#103 (9-10/56)

Superboy-#52 (9-10/56)

Superman-#109 (9-10/56)

Wonder Woman-#85 (9-10/56)

World's Finest-#84 (9-10/56)

[RockMyAmadeus]

The most important thing to remember is that "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" are terms made up by the collecting community....not the publishers. Trying to retoractively "force" an age "delineation" that simply didn't exist to the editors and creators is never going to make any sense. There was no "switch" in their minds, because they had no concept of "Comic Ages."

 

In almost every case, it's just an artificial date, a line drawn completely at random, that could be drawn anywhere within 5-10 years following for most of these characters.

 

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman...until the late 60's/early 70's, the stories were essentially the same that had been told since the late 40's. Yes, Batman added a yellow circle...but that's really about it. Otherwise, same name, same characters, same costume, same secret identity, etc etc etc.

 

I guarantee you, Julie Schwartz did NOT think, in 1956 "I'm ushering in the Silver Age of comics!" He just kept doing his job.

[Comicopolis]

The most important thing to remember is that "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" are terms made up by the collecting community....not the publishers. Trying to retoractively "force" an age "delineation" that simply didn't exist to the editors and creators is never going to make any sense. There was no "switch" in their minds, because they had no concept of "Comic Ages."

 

In almost every case, it's just an artificial date, a line drawn completely at random, that could be drawn anywhere within 5-10 years following for most of these characters.

 

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman...until the late 60's/early 70's, the stories were essentially the same that had been told since the late 40's. Yes, Batman added a yellow circle...but that's really about it. Otherwise, same name, same characters, same costume, same secret identity, etc etc etc.

 

I guarantee you, Julie Schwartz did NOT think, in 1956 "I'm ushering in the Silver Age of comics!" He just kept doing his job.

 

While I agree with what you are saying, as soon as DC and Julie Schwartz ushered in the concept of Earth 1 and Earth 2 (and all the others that followed) then the regular WW, Supes & Bats titles had to feature the SA (Earth 1) characters because they were interacting with the recognisable SA Flash, GL and the rest.

 

So at some point those titles switched from GA to SA, from Earth 2 to Earth 1 stories. They may as well marry up to when Showcase #4 was published but it has to line up at some point.

 

And even if the terms GA and SA were created by the collecting community then DC have readily embraced them and incorporated them into the DC Universe.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Fair enough....but a couple of points:

 

1. DC may have embraced the concept of "Golden Age" and "Silver Age"....but they certainly had their own spin on it with Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. There are a few instances where SA DCs refer to "the Golden Age of comics", but certainly not the Silver Age.

 

2. DC embraced the concept in the 70's and 80's, not the 60's, because the fans who were part of that "Golden/Silver Age" invention (Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, Paul Levitz etc) were now running the show.

 

3. Even though there is a clear change in the characters who ceased publication, there really isn't one for Bats, Supes, WW, etc. When Bats, Supes, et al appeared in Justice Society crossovers, they made no mention of their being "Golden Age" versions of those characters until the late 60's. Even then, when they had Golden Age Robin, then WW, then Batman, then Superman "appear" (in various issues of Justice League), they made absolutely no attempt to reconcile the fact that these characters had remained in print, with no discernable change from issue to issue, for the past 30 years!

 

It was Retcon in the finest tradition.

 

(And this, of course, is the main reason Marv Wolfman created Crisis. This isn't a new argument. )

 

Any attempt we make therefore to assign a "switch" from GA to SA for these characters would be retroactive, artificial, and not justified by plot or story elements.

[Boozad]

This is a great read. I've got to say I'm fairly clueless when it comes to knowing what defined a change in age.

 

[Comicopolis]

It was Retcon in the finest tradition.

 

(And this, of course, is the main reason Marv Wolfman created Crisis. This isn't a new argument. )

 

Any attempt we make therefore to assign a "switch" from GA to SA for these characters would be retroactive, artificial, and not justified by plot or story elements.

 

I agree, of course it was a retcon, most of what Marvel & DC have published for the last 40 years has been exactly that.

 

Retroactive & artificial sums up the big two exactly but at somepoint serious comic historians will have to point at where WW, Bats & Supes morphed from the GA to the SA characters in their regular titles.

 

Otherwise those have been the original characters all along.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Retroactive & artificial sums up the big two exactly but at somepoint serious comic historians will have to point at where WW, Bats & Supes morphed from the GA to the SA characters in their regular titles.

 

Otherwise those have been the original characters all along.

 

See, I dunno if that's necessarily the case. I'm comfortable with saying there was never a distinct moment when "this is GA Supes...now THIS is SA supes"...except retroactively, when the writers of the 70's and 80's (again, Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, and Paul Levitz being the main culprits...and I say that with the utmost respect) realized that Julie, Carmine, Cary, John, and the rest of the writers of the late 50's and 60's just didn't care that much about continuity and plot to bother with it at the time.

 

Regardless, this is an excellent discussion.

 

I would kill to have Mark Evanier be a part of it....that guy makes me look like I'm a 5th grader studying states and their capitals when it comes to comics history.

[JuliusSeizure]

Many people feel that Action 241 started the SA Superman, with the first Fortress of Solitude appearance. In fact it did lead off the Showcase Presents - Superman Vol. 1, so DC may consider that somewhat 'official'.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Wait a minute....I know what this thread has been missing!

 

People telling other people they're stupid, moronic, and dumb, that they know nothing about the topic at hand, and that they're derailing it with non-interesting tangents that bore the hell out of everyone else!!

 

Ack!

 

A serious, civil conversation on the CGC boards? Not possible!

 

[Zonker]

 

Retroactive & artificial sums up the big two exactly but at somepoint serious comic historians will have to point at where WW, Bats & Supes morphed from the GA to the SA characters in their regular titles.

 

Otherwise those have been the original characters all along.

 

See, I dunno if that's necessarily the case. I'm comfortable with saying there was never a distinct moment when "this is GA Supes...now THIS is SA supes"...except retroactively, when the writers of the 70's and 80's (again, Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, and Paul Levitz being the main culprits...and I say that with the utmost respect) realized that Julie, Carmine, Cary, John, and the rest of the writers of the late 50's and 60's just didn't care that much about continuity and plot to bother with it at the time.

 

 

Exactly. Add to this the fact that the Earth 1 - Earth 2 bit was dreamed up in the office of Julie Schwartz. And in the early Silver Age (pre-1964), Julie had nothing to do with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. Those titles just kept on doing what they had always been doing under their previous management.

 

When they got around to introducing the "Golden Age" (Earth 2) Superman, they still had him working at the Daily Star (as in the earliest Action Comics appearances), rather than the Daily Planet. So an argument could be made that the final appearance of the Golden Age Superman was just prior to the first appearance of the Daily Planet newsroom (somebody check their Overstreet).

 

It is even more difficult to go back and retroactively define this-was-the-GA-Supes, while this was the Silver Age version, because in the 1950s and 1960s they recycled the plots every 6 or 7 years, as their readership aged out of their target audience. There were quite a few Supergirl prototypes before the final version came out. Seems like Bizarro went through a false start or two as well.