COIE and Batman

[Comicopolis]

Let's see if we can come up with some kind of consenus of which issues may be the switch over for WW, Supes & Bats.

 

Zonker mentioned this: "When they got around to introducing the "Golden Age" (Earth 2) Superman, they still had him working at the Daily Star (as in the earliest Action Comics appearances), rather than the Daily Planet. So an argument could be made that the final appearance of the Golden Age Superman was just prior to the first appearance of the Daily Planet newsroom (somebody check their Overstreet)."

 

JuliusSeizure gave us this "Many people feel that Action 241 started the SA Superman, with the first Fortress of Solitude appearance. In fact it did lead off the Showcase Presents - Superman Vol. 1, so DC may consider that somewhat 'official'."

 

Any others?

[Zonker]

Well, I doubt I'll get much traction on the idea that the 1st Daily Planet (Action #23, 1940) is the first post-Golden Age Superman. Likewise, I doubt I'll have many followers for the first Silver Age Batman being the New Look of 1964 (but it works for me )

 

Wonder Woman is a bit easier: the 1st Andru & Esposito issue is #98 (1958), and Overstreet says #97 was the final H.G. Peter artwork, so that seems like a natural dividing line.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If I had to make a choice...I'd go with New Look, too for Bats (which, as Zonks noted, is the most tenuous of reasons, and came rather late in the game, but it's the only thing we got.)

 

Supes? There's nothing to nail down anything, so I'll just say Action #252, with Supergirl. No real reason.

 

Superboy is a bit easier for me: Adventure #247. The first appearance of the Legion is really what defined Superboy for the next 25 years.

 

Aquaman? I'll go with Showcase #30, his first silver age solo.

 

Green Arrow? No clue. Justice League #4?

 

Wonder Woman, I can dig #98 for Zonk's reasoning.

 

 

[Comicopolis]

The following is from the Golden Age Batman site (link at the bottom):

 

"Although the Golden Age officially ended in 1945, the Golden Age Batman remained a stable character for DC Comics until May, 1964 when the modern or "new look" Batman was introduced in Detective Comics 327. The "new look" Batman first appeared in the Batman title in issue 164 and in World's Finest Comics in issue 141. The main distinguishing characteristic of the modern Batman was the bat-symbol on his uniform contained within a yellow oval. The Golden Age Batman had only a single black bat on his uniform with no yellow oval."

 

http://www.goldenagebatman.com/gabathistory.html

[JuliusSeizure]

The following is from the Golden Age Batman site (link at the bottom):

 

"Although the Golden Age officially ended in 1945, the Golden Age Batman remained a stable character for DC Comics until May, 1964 when the modern or "new look" Batman was introduced in Detective Comics 327. The "new look" Batman first appeared in the Batman title in issue 164 and in World's Finest Comics in issue 141. The main distinguishing characteristic of the modern Batman was the bat-symbol on his uniform contained within a yellow oval. The Golden Age Batman had only a single black bat on his uniform with no yellow oval."

 

http://www.goldenagebatman.com/gabathistory.html

 

Ah, but the Batman who co-founded the Justice League (SA Batman, gotta be) did not have the yellow oval. What's more, the fact that the SA Batman changed his costume to add the yellow oval was a *plot point* in one of the stories in Batman #183. (Happens to be the first SA Batman I ever got as a kid.) I don't know what the right dividing line is for Batman, but it can't be the "New Look".

[Sal]

It's probably not one issue or even two, but a combination of a lot of subtle changes.

 

 

I think defining what the "Silver Age" means might be helpful. For instance, I take it to mean a shift in the type of stories from both a tone and characterisation standpoint.

 

 

Oh, and RMA; If you don't want to get into fights, then please don't start them.

[ignimbrite]

I really am enjoying this discussion. I was always curious how the 'silver age divide' actually worked. I have never had the opportunity to read the JLA books when they 'meet' the Justice Society. Now it is my, possibly mistaken, understanding the Justice Society had never met Batman or Superman before this point right? Doesn't that imply that there was not a Batman or Superman on Earth-2 initially?

 

Also I understand that this wasn't an issue before as books were read and enjoyed more than dissected but it is fun to look back on the logic used (if there was any).

[RockMyAmadeus]

The following is from the Golden Age Batman site (link at the bottom):

 

"Although the Golden Age officially ended in 1945, the Golden Age Batman remained a stable character for DC Comics until May, 1964 when the modern or "new look" Batman was introduced in Detective Comics 327. The "new look" Batman first appeared in the Batman title in issue 164 and in World's Finest Comics in issue 141. The main distinguishing characteristic of the modern Batman was the bat-symbol on his uniform contained within a yellow oval. The Golden Age Batman had only a single black bat on his uniform with no yellow oval."

 

http://www.goldenagebatman.com/gabathistory.html

 

Ah, but the Batman who co-founded the Justice League (SA Batman, gotta be) did not have the yellow oval. What's more, the fact that the SA Batman changed his costume to add the yellow oval was a *plot point* in one of the stories in Batman #183. (Happens to be the first SA Batman I ever got as a kid.) I don't know what the right dividing line is for Batman, but it can't be the "New Look".

 

:shrug:

 

So, what other place is there? That's the problem in a nutshell. If we call Bats who founded the Justice League "Silver Age Bats"...where did Golden Age Bats go, and when?

 

I think, my friends, this is going to be an issue that will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. One of life's great unsolvable mysteries....

[JuliusSeizure]

I really am enjoying this discussion. I was always curious how the 'silver age divide' actually worked. I have never had the opportunity to read the JLA books when they 'meet' the Justice Society. Now it is my, possibly mistaken, understanding the Justice Society had never met Batman or Superman before this point right? Doesn't that imply that there was not a Batman or Superman on Earth-2 initially?

 

Well, Batman and Superman were infrequent members of the JSA back in the GA (All-Star Comics). So once the concept of the JSA adventures taking place on Earth-2 was established, there *had* to have been an Earth-2 Superman and Batman. But unlike Flash, GL, etc, it was always intended by the Superman/Batman editors that the adventures chronicled in those heroes' books were consecutive. (We're still debating the GA/SA break here in 2009!) That's actually true as far as the late BA...in Hugo Strange's appearances in Detective 471-472, reference is made to Batman's previous encounter with him in Batman #1, both in the story itself and an editorial footnote.

 

So back in the 60s when the GA and SA heroes started to meet, the question of the Earth-2 Superman and Batman was swept under the rug for awhile, probably because none of the editors had an answer. As far as I know, the first SA appearance of the GA Robin was JLA #55, the GA Superman was JLA #73 or #74, and the GA Batman I'm not sure...could it have been as late as JLA #135?

[RockMyAmadeus]

OPG says it's #82, in cameo. I don't have a copy handy to check.

 

And that's the issue...the "sweeping under the rug" as it were, that has led to the situation we're in today.

 

Which gets precedence? Are Julius Schwartz' books more "correct" than Mort Weisinger's?

 

:shrug:

[Comicopolis]

I really am enjoying this discussion. I was always curious how the 'silver age divide' actually worked. I have never had the opportunity to read the JLA books when they 'meet' the Justice Society. Now it is my, possibly mistaken, understanding the Justice Society had never met Batman or Superman before this point right? Doesn't that imply that there was not a Batman or Superman on Earth-2 initially?

 

Well, Batman and Superman were infrequent members of the JSA back in the GA (All-Star Comics). So once the concept of the JSA adventures taking place on Earth-2 was established, there *had* to have been an Earth-2 Superman and Batman. But unlike Flash, GL, etc, it was always intended by the Superman/Batman editors that the adventures chronicled in those heroes' books were consecutive. (We're still debating the GA/SA break here in 2009!) That's actually true as far as the late BA...in Hugo Strange's appearances in Detective 471-472, reference is made to Batman's previous encounter with him in Batman #1, both in the story itself and an editorial footnote.

 

So back in the 60s when the GA and SA heroes started to meet, the question of the Earth-2 Superman and Batman was swept under the rug for awhile, probably because none of the editors had an answer. As far as I know, the first SA appearance of the GA Robin was JLA #55, the GA Superman was JLA #73 or #74, and the GA Batman I'm not sure...could it have been as late as JLA #135?

 

The Hugo Strange reference is an interesting point - that would indicate that the majority of the Batman stories since Tec 27 were all about the same Batman. But maybe both Bats also shared the same events/stories?

 

What if all the Bats (and Supes & WW) stories from the GA that involved the JSA or other GA characters were of the Earth 2 versions and all the other issues were to be of the Earth 1 versions. A lot of convolution and retcon I know but how else could the disparities already mentioned be explained away?

 

One of the biggest plot holes I've always found with COIE is the assumption at the end that the JSA had been around since the 30's & 40's and then the JLA appeared on the scene in the late 50's/early 60's. This allowed DC to have both groups existing on the same Earth but just in different time zones.

 

But what about the JSA versions of Batman, Superman & WW? Were those 3 supposed to have been around since the 30's and been in both groups?

[Zonker]

One of the biggest plot holes I've always found with COIE is the assumption at the end that the JSA had been around since the 30's & 40's and then the JLA appeared on the scene in the late 50's/early 60's. This allowed DC to have both groups existing on the same Earth but just in different time zones.

 

But what about the JSA versions of Batman, Superman & WW? Were those 3 supposed to have been around since the 30's and been in both groups?

 

That's part of what drove me away from DC super-heroes after COIE. They retconned the WWII Superman, Batman, WW as never having existed. Not so disruptive in the case of Supes and Bats, since they only appeared in a handful of Golden Age JSA stories, usually cameos. But WW appeared in every All-Star Comics beginning with #8. All those appearances were ret-conned to be by someone called "Fury". I much preferred John Byrne's later ret-retcon that had WW's mother Hippolyta stand in as the Golden Age WW in the 1940s JSA.

 

Not content with wrecking the JSA history, they then declared that WW could only have appeared subsequent to all the Justice League stories published to date. So you have most all of the JLA stories back to B&B 28 invalidated from a continuity perspective. In her place, they ret-conned Black Canary to have been the founding female member of JLA. One of the positive things to come out of the later Infinite Crisis was undoing that bit of business.

 

Prior to COIE, the continuity was pretty much as you stated: the Golden Age Batman stories were said to have been common to both the Earth 1 and Earth 2 versions. In the case of the Earth 2 events, they happened in the 1940s. The Earth 1 version of events would have happened "x years ago." The exception was always events tied to WWII or some other fixed historical event, which were understood to be unique to the Earth 2 Golden Age version.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Oh, and RMA; If you don't want to get into fights, then please don't start them.

 

 

Oh and Sal...with all respect that is due you....both parts of your "if/then" statement are wrong...and your post is an attempt to start a fight.

 

Since I have never...not once...initiated interaction with you, it is therefore impossible for me to have "started a fight" with you.

 

Now go troll elsewhere. This is a grown-up thread.

[ignimbrite]

This is a bit of an aside but I thought it might interests some of the 'veterans' of this board. Generally I don't post all that much and while I do enjoy conversations like this that do not have real answers but are fun to debate as a rule I avoid asking them on the board because, often, it turns into a battle of 'Smilies' and old feuds that have nothing to do with the topic. I have had people berate me for repeating something that was said 30 pages prior (obviously a long discussion) because I did not have the time to look through 30 pages of nonsense to find the one or two intelligent non-personal things said. Maybe that type of thing is limited to the general CGC board.

 

I just wanted to say that and also point out how interesting this conversation has been.

[Comicopolis]

One of the biggest plot holes I've always found with COIE is the assumption at the end that the JSA had been around since the 30's & 40's and then the JLA appeared on the scene in the late 50's/early 60's. This allowed DC to have both groups existing on the same Earth but just in different time zones.

 

But what about the JSA versions of Batman, Superman & WW? Were those 3 supposed to have been around since the 30's and been in both groups?

 

That's part of what drove me away from DC super-heroes after COIE. They retconned the WWII Superman, Batman, WW as never having existed. Not so disruptive in the case of Supes and Bats, since they only appeared in a handful of Golden Age JSA stories, usually cameos. But WW appeared in every All-Star Comics beginning with #8. All those appearances were ret-conned to be by someone called "Fury". I much preferred John Byrne's later ret-retcon that had WW's mother Hippolyta stand in as the Golden Age WW in the 1940s JSA.

 

Not content with wrecking the JSA history, they then declared that WW could only have appeared subsequent to all the Justice League stories published to date. So you have most all of the JLA stories back to B&B 28 invalidated from a continuity perspective. In her place, they ret-conned Black Canary to have been the founding female member of JLA. One of the positive things to come out of the later Infinite Crisis was undoing that bit of business.

 

Prior to COIE, the continuity was pretty much as you stated: the Golden Age Batman stories were said to have been common to both the Earth 1 and Earth 2 versions. In the case of the Earth 2 events, they happened in the 1940s. The Earth 1 version of events would have happened "x years ago." The exception was always events tied to WWII or some other fixed historical event, which were understood to be unique to the Earth 2 Golden Age version.

 

Excellent post - very interesting and informative.

 

Having read Infinite Crisis my understanding is that everything is back to normal regarding Earth's 1 & 2. Is that correct?

[Zonker]

Not really...

 

At the close of Infinite Crisis, we are led to believe that there is still only 1 Earth ("New Earth"), but with some changes from the status quo that held from 1986-2006. For instance, WW is again a founding member of JLA, Batman did indeed find his parents' killer, and Superman's John Byrne-crafted origin has been altered in ways they never got around to telling us about (Geoff Johns' upcoming Secret Origin I think finally addresses this). And everybody remembers the Multiverse, including the JSA's Power Girl, who is acknowledged as an Earth-2 refugee, rather than all the ridiculous ret-cons that were attempted over the last quarter-century.

 

But then, in the course of the follow-up 52 series, it was revealed that yes indeed the multiverse was back, and there are now 52 parallel Earths, with the Wildstorm universe on one of them, and most of the various Elseworlds projects represented on other of the Earths. But mainline DC continuity is still a mismash of the Golden Age characters emerging in the 1940s, with legacy heroes popping up continually since then, all on the same Earth. Some Golden Age stories still need to be ignored (the Superman & Batman 1940s appearances with the JSA, for instance).

 

One of the 52 worlds is something very similar to the Earth-2 as it existed prior to COIE. Power Girl crossed over to that world in the course of Johns' recent Justice Society of America / Kingdom Come arc. And there she found the Helena Wayne version of the Huntress along with the rest of the original Infinity Inc. characters.

 

Supposedly Grant Morrison will be writing a new series that is something of a travelogue to the current DC Multiverse. I understand the Countdown series dabbled in that a bit, but I never made it past a couple of issues of Countdown.

[User 01001010]

Not really...

 

At the close of Infinite Crisis, we are led to believe that there is still only 1 Earth ("New Earth"), but with some changes from the status quo that held from 1986-2006. For instance, WW is again a founding member of JLA, Batman did indeed find his parents' killer, and Superman's John Byrne-crafted origin has been altered in ways they never got around to telling us about (Geoff Johns' upcoming Secret Origin I think finally addresses this). And everybody remembers the Multiverse, including the JSA's Power Girl, who is acknowledged as an Earth-2 refugee, rather than all the ridiculous ret-cons that were attempted over the last quarter-century.

 

But then, in the course of the follow-up 52 series, it was revealed that yes indeed the multiverse was back, and there are now 52 parallel Earths, with the Wildstorm universe on one of them, and most of the various Elseworlds projects represented on other of the Earths. But mainline DC continuity is still a mismash of the Golden Age characters emerging in the 1940s, with legacy heroes popping up continually since then, all on the same Earth. Some Golden Age stories still need to be ignored (the Superman & Batman 1940s appearances with the JSA, for instance).

 

One of the 52 worlds is something very similar to the Earth-2 as it existed prior to COIE. Power Girl crossed over to that world in the course of Johns' recent Justice Society of America / Kingdom Come arc. And there she found the Helena Wayne version of the Huntress along with the rest of the original Infinity Inc. characters.

 

Supposedly Grant Morrison will be writing a new series that is something of a travelogue to the current DC Multiverse. I understand the Countdown series dabbled in that a bit, but I never made it past a couple of issues of Countdown.

 

my head hurts now.

 

j

[Comicopolis]

They should just hand the whole thing over to Alan Moore and ask him to tidy up 70 years of ed continuity

[Zonker]

I should have just said

 

Not Really I'd tell you, but then you'd have to kill me. (thumbs u

 

[Comicopolis]

Fair enough....but a couple of points:

 

1. DC may have embraced the concept of "Golden Age" and "Silver Age"....but they certainly had their own spin on it with Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. There are a few instances where SA DCs refer to "the Golden Age of comics", but certainly not the Silver Age.

 

2. DC embraced the concept in the 70's and 80's, not the 60's, because the fans who were part of that "Golden/Silver Age" invention (Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, Paul Levitz etc) were now running the show.

 

quote]

 

Interestingly enough I just found this when looking through Wonder Woman #158 (November 1965)