PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Speedy-D]

Whoa!

[Ryan.]

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Positive results that are forced with the right care and management are positive. How do you think individuals and teams push themselves to achieve greater goals than they would have as a standalone unit? Someone helped them down a different path than they would have gone otherwise.

 

This is terribly frightening language.

 

You don't "help" someone down a different path by FORCING them down it.

 

 

Eventually, though, everyone is forced to conform to whatever the ones with the power dictate is acceptable, on penalty of shaming or worse...and the majority ends up in chains.

 

What power? The power to encourage positive transactions, and ensuring if things don't go smoothly initiatially there is some form of recourse for those in a tough situation? Again, I think you are so busy giving the stump speech about how you would like things, you forget what the intent and general experience has been with this method to resolve issues. And it involves the leadership of the community - not one individual or a designated small group.

 

What is "the leadership" of this community...? Was there an election?

 

There is no leadership of this community with any actual authority other than CGC and its moderation team.

 

All other "leadership" is self-appointed, and has no authority over that which is self-granted. This is not "leadership." Leaders lead by example, not by force. Those who lead by force are called tyrants. The real leaders of this community...and they do exist...are those who live by their convictions, do not force others to conform to them, and behave with honesty, integrity, gentleness, forebearance, and patience. They have moral authority...precisely because they don't force people to conform to their opinions.

 

Here's a hint: neither of us are those people.

 

Look at how you diminish and dismiss my statements by mischaracterizing them("free for all"...I never said anything like that) and saying things like "I think you are so busy giving the stump speech" etc. You're not debating the ideas...as I have done with your statements...you are debating me, the person.

 

You are, I suspect deliberately, ignoring the fact that I said, not a few posts back, that we don't throw out the system just because it is flawed. I said BECAUSE it is flawed, cases need to be handled on an individual basis. You are decrying something...the apparent disolution of the PL...that I never once suggested, and, in fact, I have stated the OPPOSITE on multiple occasions.

 

Why, then, would you state that...? Are you deliberately mischaracterizing my statements because you recognize the validity of my actual position, but doing so out loud would be anathema to you?

 

How I would like things to be? I would like everyone to be free to do as they will, provided they don't harm anyone, free from personal public pressure by those who disagree. You oppose this?

 

I didn't "forget" that this method has been successful. Public shaming is a powerful motivator. See Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" for an example of how effective it is. But is it moral...? And the intent...? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

 

Is it flawed? Sure it is. It would be nice if someone like Kitsune could go on a warning list, to alert people dealing with him may be hit or miss (or pure miss from two transactions). But rallying against any recourse system so we can all go off and do "whatever" is then going down the path of forgetting why this entire system was implemented in the first place.

 

I didn't implement this system. But I respect the intent, recognize the majority of the benefit it brings, and don't try and work around it so I can focus on how much more money I can make without a care about fellow forumites that have been burned.

 

Again, issues that aren't part of the current discussion, but simply more appeals to emotion (subtext: "those greedy people who ignore the PL for their own enrichment, and while their fellow board members suffer!")

 

They are disingenuous statements, to say the least.

[Heresy]

Make it stop....

 

[N/A]

It's official! RMA is back!!

 

Welcome back!!!

 

And although I have no time to read all the bloated post counts I do know that the PL discussions are OFTEN used to get someone to pay. The PL is a deterrent for some behaviors as it should be.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's official! RMA is back!!

 

Welcome back!!!

 

No, my dear Branget. Nothing has changed. Once this discussion runs its course, it's back to popcorn for me.

 

And although I have no time to read all the bloated post counts I do know that the PL discussions are OFTEN used to get someone to pay. The PL is a deterrent for some behaviors as it should be.

 

So is leg breaking....

 

[Bosco685]

Again, you are so excited and wanting to make a point, now you are talking irrationally.

 

Why, then, would you state that...? Are you deliberately mischaracterizing my statements because you recognize the validity of my actual position, but doing so out loud would be anathema to you?

 

Nope. And making that statement is irrational and disingenuous. It feels like if someone differs from your thinking, they must have a personal issue with you and the best approach is to twist it into that scenario. So oddly enough, it is what you claim others do to you when it comes down to just differing viewpoints.

 

I stated very clearly the reason for the PL/HOS from observation and application, and the high-level benefits to the community.

 

They are disingenuous statements, to say the least.

 

In your opinion. Meanwhile, reality is what I said is very much how the majority view things. And they see it this way not because they are mindless sheep following the barks of the dog keeping them in the field while they graze. It is due to the recognition there is value to this thread and the PL/HOS. And if they don't like some parts of the approach, they can (and have) spoken up to change certain practices.

 

Continuous improvement can be made if there is some foundation to start with. But stating it doesn't work the way you would like so you are going to sell around it seems not the best approach, no matter how much self-guided criteria you apply to ensure your transactions go smoothly.

 

What about the folks that were wronged by people on the PL/HOS? Do they matter to you?

[N/A]

It's official! RMA is back!!

 

Welcome back!!!

 

No, my dear Branget. Nothing has changed. Once this discussion runs its course, it's back to popcorn for me.

 

And although I have no time to read all the bloated post counts I do know that the PL discussions are OFTEN used to get someone to pay. The PL is a deterrent for some behaviors as it should be.

 

So is leg breaking....

 

 

Well then, nice of you to visit.

[vader2001]

Ok ladies and gentlemen, in one corner standing in at 5'8" weighing in at 32959 wearing the red and white RMA and in the other corner standing in at 5'8" weighing in at 31796 wearing red and blue Bosco!

 

Ok gentlemen lets have a clean disagreement and when the bell sounds come out

[dover]

[Bio-Rupp]

If you sell to anyone on the PL list... thus knowingly ignoring what it stands for ... how can you justify using the same PL to punish or threaten someone when one of your failed sales qualifies you to be able to use it?

 

As much as you want it to be, it's not that black and white.

 

My terms are quite clear: I will sell to members on the PL on a case by case basis, and they must pay PRIOR TO claiming anything.

 

Just like the American justice system, each case is handled individually. Not everyone charged with (insert crime here) is guilty, nor is each case the same.

 

That there are people on the PL, and even the HOS, because they simply got frustrated...rather than working it out, they just walked, is proof of that. Dan (what's her face's husband) is an excellent example of that. In my experience, he's not a bad guy...but he got such public drubbing, he said forget it.

 

Doesn't make what he did right...not at all...but it's certainly not the same as, say, ComicSupply or CapFreak.

 

There are very, very few people with the stomach for the high holy righteous wrath many of you are capable of, especially when you're in mob mode.

 

We do not throw out the entire American justice system simply because the innocent are sometimes convicted, while the guilty sometimes go free.

 

Are most of the people on the PL/HOS there because they deserve to be? Without a doubt. Are ALL of them? No. Which is why we consider things case by case, and do not apply monolithic "justice" to everyone with an issue.

 

Kitsune, who absolutely without a doubt embodies the spirit of those who thumb their noses at the community and deserves to be on the list will not be...though with all this sturm and drang, I may reconsider not selling to him to see if he'll actually pay. I have my doubts. But he absolutely embodies the PL, but won't be on it.

 

How many of you want to put me on th PL? Yet I have done nothing to merit it, according to its own rules (sorry, "unwritten rules" have no merit.)

 

 

Ok so we are back on speaking terms... yay!

 

If you let the guy finish the transaction, which every one from the Axis of Evil all the way the newly formed Alliance of Alternative Thinking Evil Villains understands is the initial use of the PL discussion thread... all this will be over.

 

You get your money, he gets the book. Again a win-win.

 

Flip that coin over... he DOESN'T pay you, you keep your book and place him on the PL. Another win-win for you.

 

RMA you can quote every book from the Holy Bible all the way to current issue of Cosmopolitan... doesn't change the fact that you will get what you are entitled to by the PL Discussion Board by doing the bold type above.

 

 

[Shark]

I'm officially turning off this thread. It gives me a headache every time I come in here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Again, you are so excited and wanting to make a point, now you are talking irrationally.

 

You are debating the person, rather than the ideas. You don't know what my state of mind is, but claim you do. These are classic logical fallacies.

 

Why, then, would you state that...? Are you deliberately mischaracterizing my statements because you recognize the validity of my actual position, but doing so out loud would be anathema to you?

 

Nope. And making that statement is irrational and disingenuous. It feels like if someone differs from your thinking, they must have a personal issue with you and the best approach is to twist it into that scenario. So oddly enough, it is what you claim others do to you when it comes down to just differing viewpoints.

 

It was a question, not a statement. As well, there is nothing in that question that even remotely touches on the idea that "you disagree with me because you don't like me." I asked why you would deliberately mischaracterize my position, and if such deliberate mischaracterization was because you recognize the validity of that position....neither of which have anything to do with what I think you may think of me personally. "Anathema to you" doesn't have to mean "because you dislike me personally" (though, where you and I are concerned, that is definitely a worthwhile consideration) but can also include "because you are loathe to admit you are wrong about anything", which has nothing to do with me.

 

Again, you keep trying to make this personal. Debate the ideas, not the person.

 

I disagree with lots of people, and don't think that's because of a personal issue they have with me, or vice versa. That is the benefit of being ruled by reason, rather than emotion.

 

In fact, that's my major beef with this board: there are far too many people, like yourself, who cannot separate the argument from the person, and often disagree for no other reason than they dislike the other person, and think that others disagree with them for the same reason.

 

Hence, the King meme I posted several pages back.

 

"It feels" means you are still arguing from emotion. Arguing from emotion is a very weak position from which to argue (though it quite obviously has appeal.)

 

I stated very clearly the reason for the PL/HOS from observation and application, and the high-level benefits to the community.

 

They are disingenuous statements, to say the least.

 

In your opinion. Meanwhile, reality is what I said is very much how the majority view things.

 

That is correct...it is my opinion that appealing to emotion, rather than reason, is disingenuous, because it ultimately enslaves people to feelings, rather than logic.

 

I know that you (and I'm not sure if it's a majority, but I'll consider it true for the sake of the argument) are correct: a lot of people today are swayed not by reason and logic, which is concrete, but by feelings and emotions, which are not.

 

That is how demagogues obtain, and keep, power. "Won't someone PLEASE think of the fellow boardies, who are suffering, while you sit there with your grredy, ill-gotten gains at their expense...

 

...(nevermind that each case is unique, not every person on the PL/HOS deserves to be there, not every boardie has actually suffered, and treating every case the same is actually what is unjust)...

 

...you must FEEL for those suffering boardies, you greedy person, you!"

 

By appealing to emotion, rather than reason.

 

And they see it this way not because they are mindless sheep following the barks of the dog keeping them in the field while they graze. It is due to the recognition there is value to this thread and the PL/HOS. And if they don't like some parts of the approach, they can (and have) spoken up to change certain practices.

 

Continuous improvement can be made if there is some foundation to start with. But stating it doesn't work the way you would like so you are going to sell around it seems not the best approach, no matter how much self-guided criteria you apply to ensure your transactions go smoothly.

 

But, you see, in a free society, what I do is none of your business...and what you do is none of mine. I should be free to determine for myself whether my approach works for me or not, and free from the public pressure of those who disagree.

 

That's what you're not grasping, because you don't believe in individual freedom.

 

What about the folks that were wronged by people on the PL/HOS? Do they matter to you?

 

Again, another appeal to emotion. I have fought vigorously on behalf of those wronged on this board by others, a record of which is easily available.

 

"Prove your loyalty!" is a classic device of the demagogue, and one which need not be answered, much like "have you stopped beating your wife?"

[RockMyAmadeus]

If you sell to anyone on the PL list... thus knowingly ignoring what it stands for ... how can you justify using the same PL to punish or threaten someone when one of your failed sales qualifies you to be able to use it?

 

As much as you want it to be, it's not that black and white.

 

My terms are quite clear: I will sell to members on the PL on a case by case basis, and they must pay PRIOR TO claiming anything.

 

Just like the American justice system, each case is handled individually. Not everyone charged with (insert crime here) is guilty, nor is each case the same.

 

That there are people on the PL, and even the HOS, because they simply got frustrated...rather than working it out, they just walked, is proof of that. Dan (what's her face's husband) is an excellent example of that. In my experience, he's not a bad guy...but he got such public drubbing, he said forget it.

 

Doesn't make what he did right...not at all...but it's certainly not the same as, say, ComicSupply or CapFreak.

 

There are very, very few people with the stomach for the high holy righteous wrath many of you are capable of, especially when you're in mob mode.

 

We do not throw out the entire American justice system simply because the innocent are sometimes convicted, while the guilty sometimes go free.

 

Are most of the people on the PL/HOS there because they deserve to be? Without a doubt. Are ALL of them? No. Which is why we consider things case by case, and do not apply monolithic "justice" to everyone with an issue.

 

Kitsune, who absolutely without a doubt embodies the spirit of those who thumb their noses at the community and deserves to be on the list will not be...though with all this sturm and drang, I may reconsider not selling to him to see if he'll actually pay. I have my doubts. But he absolutely embodies the PL, but won't be on it.

 

How many of you want to put me on th PL? Yet I have done nothing to merit it, according to its own rules (sorry, "unwritten rules" have no merit.)

 

 

Ok so we are back on speaking terms... yay!

 

If you let the guy finish the transaction, which every one from the Axis of Evil all the way the newly formed Alliance of Alternative Thinking Evil Villains understands is the initial use of the PL discussion thread... all this will be over.

 

You get your money, he gets the book. Again a win-win.

 

Flip that coin over... he DOESN'T pay you, you keep your book and place him on the PL. Another win-win for you.

 

RMA you can quote every book from the Holy Bible all the way to current issue of Cosmopolitan... doesn't change the fact that you will get what you are entitled to by the PL Discussion Board by doing the bold type above.

 

 

 

It is literally, physically painful to watch you twist logic into such a pretzel.

 

Please, just stop.

[Green]

 

I don't want Kitsune on the PL as a means to coerce him to complete the transaction. I want him on the list for what he has already done, which is not paying for an item he claimed, and doing so in a manner that was completely disrespectful.

 

I don't want him to be there to compel him to DO something. I want to WARN OTHER PEOPLE about what he has ALREADY DONE.

 

Ahh the good old days. when the probation list served as a warning. when people were actually punished for being problematic traders. Now are the days of instant forgiveness if you just pay your way out, nothing more than strongarm tactic is what weve created.

 

3 years ago kitsune would be hung hi on probie list until the end of times unless he sincerely made an effort to make it right. Now he has infinite loop holes and half a forum of defense lawyers.

 

I was involved in the making of the new rules as many of you were. Im not casting a stone that im unwilling to slug myself in the nuts with. We it up royally.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I don't want Kitsune on the PL as a means to coerce him to complete the transaction. I want him on the list for what he has already done, which is not paying for an item he claimed, and doing so in a manner that was completely disrespectful.

 

I don't want him to be there to compel him to DO something. I want to WARN OTHER PEOPLE about what he has ALREADY DONE.

 

Ahh the good old days. when the probation list served as a warning. when people were actually punished for being problematic traders. Now are the days of instant forgiveness if you just pay your way out, nothing more than strongarm tactic is what weve created.

 

3 years ago kitsune would be hung hi on probie list until the end of times unless he sincerely made an effort to make it right. Now he has infinite loop holes and half a forum of defense lawyers.

 

I was involved in the making of the new rules as many of you were. Im not casting a stone that im unwilling to slug myself in the nuts with. We it up royally.

 

But you have to admit...

 

...it was very well intended.

[Green]

 

I don't want Kitsune on the PL as a means to coerce him to complete the transaction. I want him on the list for what he has already done, which is not paying for an item he claimed, and doing so in a manner that was completely disrespectful.

 

I don't want him to be there to compel him to DO something. I want to WARN OTHER PEOPLE about what he has ALREADY DONE.

 

Ahh the good old days. when the probation list served as a warning. when people were actually punished for being problematic traders. Now are the days of instant forgiveness if you just pay your way out, nothing more than strongarm tactic is what weve created.

 

3 years ago kitsune would be hung hi on probie list until the end of times unless he sincerely made an effort to make it right. Now he has infinite loop holes and half a forum of defense lawyers.

 

I was involved in the making of the new rules as many of you were. Im not casting a stone that im unwilling to slug myself in the nuts with. We it up royally.

 

But you have to admit...

 

...it was very well intended.

Only the absolute best and i truely mean that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ok ladies and gentlemen, in one corner standing in at 5'8" weighing in at 32959 wearing the red and white RMA and in the other corner standing in at 5'8" weighing in at 31796 wearing red and blue Bosco!

 

Ok gentlemen lets have a clean disagreement and when the bell sounds come out

 

5'8"?

 

Pffft. I'm 6', baby!

 

[revat]

did someone answer jimmy L's question? I actually was hoping for an answer? A strike for threadkrapping for pointing out PL status? Maybe if its done politely its ok?

[slym2none]

did someone answer jimmy L's question? I actually was hoping for an answer? A strike for threadkrapping for pointing out PL status? Maybe if its done politely its ok?

 

Something like:

 

"Hey, GLWTS!

 

And by the way, everyone - this person is on the HOS list!"

 

 

 

 

-slym