PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 20 20

[slym2none]

Would selling a book you dont own fall under the catagory of

 

"b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions."

 

?

 

IMHO, yes.

 

 

 

-slym

[miraclemet]

Idk... my is that how is it any different than say a pre sale (granted at least on a pre sale they admit they don't have the books and are taking orders to fill) Definitely Probation List worthy given the lack of disclosure (if he had said I am brokering a deal between you and another seller and I want $3300 for the book, and you'll get the book I don't know that there would have been an issue.) I know for myself, and I am sure others do this as well, sell books you have gotten on Comic link or books that are coming back from CGC graded before you actually have them in hand, but have paid for and are being shipped. Granted that since the OO popped in and said that the seller declined to purchase and then was offering that leads me to think that a) he was looking to scam and wanted pix to scam with or b) was looking to flip if someone would bite high enough (say OO wanted 3000, sell for 3300 and make 10% profit for next to no work, even better be out nothing because you use the buyers money to pay the OO. Id say PL with next to 0% chance of ever coming off since there is no way to make up for it.

 

Difference being that if you are flipping a book you've purchased, but yet to receive from CLINK, ebay, or elsewhere... they are still your book to sell (and you should be transparent about delivery timing to potential sellers, and what I see on the boards, most are when in these cases).

 

Since PL is meant to have a way to "make things right" and meant to resolve transactions that have hit a bump, I'd say this doesnt go on the PL (since its not a transaction) and passes go straight to HOS for shady selling practices that the marketplace as a whole would frown upon. (Nothing like making an example of someone)

 

 

[crassus]

Would selling a book you dont own fall under the catagory of

 

"b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions."

 

?

 

Good question. The rules do use the example of "selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package", which would seem in the end to be very close to the same thing-- taking money with the intent to ship nothing, or theft, to use a simpler term.

 

I dont think the faux-seller's intent was to send nothing.

 

I think the plan was

A) hey I can get this ASM 1 for a nice price, but I dont have the $$

B) if I "pre-sell" it on CGC and get the funds I can acquire the book.

C) then I ship it off to the final buyer and pocket the difference!

 

(he could have also not needed the funds and just been looking to secure a flipee so that he knew he wouldnt be "stuck" holding the ASM1.

 

I think it has some parallels to the "drop ship" fiasco with those 70s day glow posters, but in that case the "presell" was not happening on the boards, just the initial sale.

 

Very possibly yes. It would remain a bad faith transaction, but in the event the seller could not acquire the OO book to complete the deal, it is possible he would have refunded the money. Embarassing but finally not theft. That is very possible.

 

[Speedy-D]

Idk... my is that how is it any different than say a pre sale (granted at least on a pre sale they admit they don't have the books and are taking orders to fill) Definitely Probation List worthy given the lack of disclosure (if he had said I am brokering a deal between you and another seller and I want $3300 for the book, and you'll get the book I don't know that there would have been an issue.) I know for myself, and I am sure others do this as well, sell books you have gotten on Comic link or books that are coming back from CGC graded before you actually have them in hand, but have paid for and are being shipped. Granted that since the OO popped in and said that the seller declined to purchase and then was offering that leads me to think that a) he was looking to scam and wanted pix to scam with or b) was looking to flip if someone would bite high enough (say OO wanted 3000, sell for 3300 and make 10% profit for next to no work, even better be out nothing because you use the buyers money to pay the OO. Id say PL with next to 0% chance of ever coming off since there is no way to make up for it.

 

Difference being that if you are flipping a book you've purchased, but yet to receive from CLINK, ebay, or elsewhere... they are still your book to sell (and you should be transparent about delivery timing to potential sellers, and what I see on the boards, most are when in these cases).

 

Since PL is meant to have a way to "make things right" and meant to resolve transactions that have hit a bump, I'd say this doesnt go on the PL (since its not a transaction) and passes go straight to HOS for shady selling practices that the marketplace as a whole would frown upon. (Nothing like making an example of someone)

 

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

[crassus]

Idk... my is that how is it any different than say a pre sale (granted at least on a pre sale they admit they don't have the books and are taking orders to fill) Definitely Probation List worthy given the lack of disclosure (if he had said I am brokering a deal between you and another seller and I want $3300 for the book, and you'll get the book I don't know that there would have been an issue.) I know for myself, and I am sure others do this as well, sell books you have gotten on Comic link or books that are coming back from CGC graded before you actually have them in hand, but have paid for and are being shipped. Granted that since the OO popped in and said that the seller declined to purchase and then was offering that leads me to think that a) he was looking to scam and wanted pix to scam with or b) was looking to flip if someone would bite high enough (say OO wanted 3000, sell for 3300 and make 10% profit for next to no work, even better be out nothing because you use the buyers money to pay the OO. Id say PL with next to 0% chance of ever coming off since there is no way to make up for it.

 

Difference being that if you are flipping a book you've purchased, but yet to receive from CLINK, ebay, or elsewhere... they are still your book to sell (and you should be transparent about delivery timing to potential sellers, and what I see on the boards, most are when in these cases).

 

Since PL is meant to have a way to "make things right" and meant to resolve transactions that have hit a bump, I'd say this doesnt go on the PL (since its not a transaction) and passes go straight to HOS for shady selling practices that the marketplace as a whole would frown upon. (Nothing like making an example of someone)

 

 

Yes I agree. Its what it says about the seller's practices that is the concern.

[miraclemet]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

[Speedy-D]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

[crassus]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

[Speedy-D]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

[Logan510]

The PL is a joke anyway.

 

 

[jaybuck43]

I agree with Crassus, I think I said something similar to that earlier, basically had he disclosed this I don't think there would have been an issue, ive seen this done in Modern many times with weekly releases where they presell NM+ books that haven't even come out yet.

[crassus]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

 

It does if the issue is good faith disclosure. There is a world of difference between canvassing pre-orders as pre-orders for events everyone knows are future tense, and offering to sell a book on the false pretense that it is yours and in your present possession as your property. Big difference IMO.

 

 

[Logan510]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

 

You don't think the guy was trying to pull a fast one?

[Speedy-D]

I agree with Crassus, I think I said something similar to that earlier, basically had he disclosed this I don't think there would have been an issue, ive seen this done in Modern many times with weekly releases where they presell NM+ books that haven't even come out yet.

If you get the comic, what's the difference if he mentioned it or not? I'm more inclined to frown upon selling anything you don't own. Hinging the controversy on whether he mentioned it or not... :shrug:

[Speedy-D]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

 

You don't think the guy was trying to pull a fast one?

A fast one? I think he was trying to buy it for cheap and make a quick profit. Or maybe he was gonna just run off with the money, but then why go through the trouble of contacting Robocard?

Edited July 25, 2013 by Speedy-D

[Logan510]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

 

You don't think the guy was trying to pull a fast one?

A fast one? I think he was trying to buy it for cheap and make a quick profit. Or maybe he was gonna just run off with the money, but then why go through the trouble of contacting Robocard?

 

Do you think there was something wrong with what he was trying to do?

[Speedy-D]

Would you have to give the deal the chance to go bad? If he can get you the comic for the price you paid, what's the problem?

 

I for one am not gonna risk it just to get the guy on the HoS.

 

I think the mere act of trying to sell that which you dont own would be something of a No-No here.

 

Easy solution, put the guy on the HOS and maybe even amend the marketplace rules, but Im not sure how to word it so it doesn't ding the "pre-sellers" (ie con exclusives), but Im completely obvious to that part of the world, so someone more experienced than me would have to figure out where that line is. In fact Im not 100% sure they're pre-selling, just selling before the books they subbed are back from CGC (which means the line is "You can only sell books that you own or you have been consigned to sell")

People have sold comics that haven't even been released yet...they sell SSes that haven't been signed...and I bet there's been a lot more of this insta-pre-flipping than we know about.

 

Is it not almost always fully disclosed? To me the issue is good faith disclosure of the nature of the transaction.

So it's cool if you mention it, but if you don't you're permanently in the HoS? Nah, that doesn't sound right.

 

You don't think the guy was trying to pull a fast one?

A fast one? I think he was trying to buy it for cheap and make a quick profit. Or maybe he was gonna just run off with the money, but then why go through the trouble of contacting Robocard?

 

Do you think there was something wrong with what he was trying to do?

:shrug: Of course I do. Why do you think I brought it up in the General Discussion thread, and made my posts in his sales thread?

[RockMyAmadeus]

I KNOW you're not after my 123 or 129!!

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I KNOW you're not after my 123 or 129 me Lucky Charms!!

 

[Bosco685]

A fast one? I think he was trying to buy it for cheap and make a quick profit. Or maybe he was gonna just run off with the money, but then why go through the trouble of contacting Robocard?

 

This was a pre-sale/flip gone bad when the current owner of the book realized what was occurring. I thought it was a scam at first until Robocard mentioned he was the current owner, and had been contacted by the potential reseller.

 

POV wanted to add presales language in the sales rules & guidelines when he was updating the content. But a group that presells books coming back from CGC were concerned it could impact their transactions and wanted it pulled.

 

So this can be considered one of the more ballsy presales ever, with a $5000 risk tied to it in the end if the initial purchase didn't go through required for the flip.