Original owner collection Questions??

[DrWatson]

How many raw pressed books do we think there are out there? Who would go to the trouble and expense of pressing books and leaving them raw.

What makes you think people don't press books and leave them raw? Just because they aren't submitting to CGC doesn't mean there isn't a benefit.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Thanks Roy..Some info I can actually use.. (thumbs u

 

I think it important to note that in Roy's post, he is mentioning pedigrees. There's a significant difference between an identified "pedigree" and just another random "OO" collection.

 

Absolutely.

 

All pedigrees must be OO books but not all OO books can be pedigrees (as recognized by CGC).

 

A ped has to have a certain breadth, grade and depth to it to be recognized.

 

That still does not change the fact that every OO collection has a story, including the Church books.

 

(thumbs u

 

Here's the issue with "OO" books and "pedigrees"....

 

Because nature has a way of killing off people, all "original owners" are eventually going to go the way of the dinosaur.

 

It's truly a good thing that Namisgr, for example, has a collection which he knows has been untampered with. And, if he sells books from that collection, the buyer, if he/she is on the boards, can aslo be reasonably assured.

 

But who is Namisgr? And this is not an insult, but outside these boards, is Namisgr, and his real life alter ego, famous enough to command a "pedigree" designation? No. At least, not yet.

 

And, once Namisgr is gone, and God forbid that's not for decades, will anyone care?

 

I think what will eventually happen is two-fold: first, comic trading has to stabilize. The hobby is much, much too young, and prices are still far too volatile, for any kind of long term buying and holding to be going on. After all, (arguably) the most famous single book in the hobby, the Church Action #1, has only been held in a known collection for 27 years.

 

That's really nothing, in terms of longevity of collections.

 

There are famous examples of coins, dozens of them, that haven't seen the light of day for 40, 50, even 70 years.

 

Second, as in coins, I believe it's not going to necessarily be the original owner, but rather the most famous owner that gets the "pedigree" designation, and is the most sought after..

 

Louis Eliasberg, who would put each and every single one of us to shame (he collected one of every single coin the United States Government ever made that was known during his lifetime, and the vast, vast majority of it is the finest or next finest known.) However...he wasn't the original owner of almost everything he owned, and certainly not the most valuable, because it was all made before he was born (1896.)

 

But, because he became the most famous collector in all of coin collecting, the coins in his collection received a "pedigree" designation exactly like the Mile Highs....even if there were other, not as famous collectors who owned the coin before or since.

 

So, in 20-30 years or so, after most of the "OO" of Gold and Silver have departed this earth, and the waters get too muddy for Bronze and later, with collecting becoming organized, and people obtaining books not new, but as back issues, I think what the book is called will be determined by who owned it and for how long a period of time.

 

This will, of course, be generally limited to collectors, and not dealers, but even famous coin dealers have given coins a "boost" when it's known that they passed through those hands.

[Beau]

Second, as in coins, I believe it's not going to necessarily be the original owner, but rather the most famous owner that gets the "pedigree" designation, and is the most sought after..

 

You own some Nic Cage books, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm onto your agenda, mister.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Second, as in coins, I believe it's not going to necessarily be the original owner, but rather the most famous owner that gets the "pedigree" designation, and is the most sought after..

 

You own some Nic Cage books, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm onto your agenda, mister.

 

Well, at least someone read up to that point.

 

WIN!

[slym2none]

Second, as in coins, I believe it's not going to necessarily be the original owner, but rather the most famous owner that gets the "pedigree" designation, and is the most sought after..

 

You own some Nic Cage books, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm onto your agenda, mister.

 

Well, at least someone read up to that point.

 

WIN!

 

You had me at "killing off people..."

 

 

 

 

-slym

[divad]

Actually, the "less hands" anything pass through, the better . . .

 

RMA's points are all well taken, but are not those of an OO "archivist", which many of us really view ourselves as.

[divad]

I learned the hard way about the value of purchasing OO books.

 

Last year, I bought an Avengers 1 - 4 from a woman who had a really nice SA collection. Apparently, she and her husband would go to the local comic book shows and conventions and buy books from various dealers. After I purchased the books, I submitted them to CGC. Issues 3 and 4 both came back as 8.5's..... with Slight Amateur restoration!!!

 

At the time, I was just getting into the hobby and had no clue how to look for restoration. I don't think the resto. was done by her or her husband. My assumption is that over the years, as those books passed through various collectors and dealers hands, someone along the way decided to "touch 'em up!" And I continue to think that the more hands a raw book passes through, the more chances there are that one of the previous owners could have altered that book in some way.

 

About that same time, I purchased a 600 book SA collection from a fellah who claimed to have personally bought all of those comics off the rack himself when he was much younger. We had several conversations about the comics, and he seemed like a trustworthy guy. So I took his word for it.

 

When I sold some of those books from his collection, and after what I learned from my experience with the non-OO Avengers I purchased, I began telling potential buyers that they were from an OO collection. The comics from his collection are low to mid grade, and I wasn't charging any more for these than I would have for the same book in the same grade that I purchased elsewhere. The reason I would mention that they were "OO" comics was to increase confidence and peace of mind for the buyer that the book had a very low probability of being mucked with in some way.

 

 

Once a book has been sold, it is no longer an OO collection. OO applies only to the books in the OO's possession. My collection of tomato boxer's is an OO collection, but I have bought many books since 2002 - none of which bear that designation. Even OO collections that I buy, I do not call OO collections - I refer to them as "purchased from the OO" but not OO.

[ComicsAndCode]

Just to be clear, no one is saying that OO collections are guaranteed to be unpressed and unrestored, right? Only that it's less likely. I'm sure there are many instances where an OO has cleaned a cover, repaired a tear, etc. to a key book. I can see this being the case just when comics were starting to be seen as collectibles/investments and restoration was thought to increase book value.

 

In my opinion, at the end of the day, OO or not, one can't be sure if the book is completely raw.

[namisgr]

Actually, I AM saying that an original owner collection can be guaranteed 100% to have books that haven't been pressed, cleaned, or restored - namely, books one has purchased themselves and brought to the market

 

As for books being brought to market by dealers who purchased them from an original owner, the unblemished nature of the books depends on the dealer. Still, there isn't nearly the monetary incentive to press OO books and then sell them raw as there is to press,encapsulate, and sell.

[divad]

Actually, I AM saying that an original owner collection can be guaranteed 100% to have books that haven't been pressed, cleaned, or restored - namely, books one has purchased themselves and brought to the market

 

As for books being brought to market by dealers who purchased them from an original owner, the unblemished nature of the books depends on the dealer. Still, there isn't nearly the monetary incentive to press OO books and then sell them raw as there is to press,encapsulate, and sell.

 

Aye, there's the rub . . . (thumbs u In fact, it is ONLY an OO collection that CAN be guaranteed.

[divad]

Just to be clear, no one is saying that OO collections are guaranteed to be unpressed and unrestored, right? Only that it's less likely. I'm sure there are many instances where an OO has cleaned a cover, repaired a tear, etc. to a key book. I can see this being the case just when comics were starting to be seen as collectibles/investments and restoration was thought to increase book value.

 

In my opinion, at the end of the day, OO or not, one can't be sure if the book is completely raw.

 

It's like anything, know the owner, and you know what you can believe or trust.

[divad]

How many raw pressed books do we think there are out there? Who would go to the trouble and expense of pressing books and leaving them raw.

What makes you think people don't press books and leave them raw? Just because they aren't submitting to CGC doesn't mean there isn't a benefit.

 

 

This may be true, but I find it hard to believe . . . primarily, because I don't see it as a "benefit".

[trmoore54]

I recall getting a scan from a guy on these boards who had some book from a "lunch collection" or something like that..Dont recall exactly..Book was in at best vg..The asking price was like 2 x vg and the rational I heard was it an original owner book..I was like WTF I would pay guide or near guide but 2x guide because you bought it off the newsstand new and beat the hell out of it??

 

I will just say, I understand your point, but the Sid's Luncheonette collection is not what I would pick to insult.

 

[trmoore54]

 

What's the guy on the left doing to Ben?

 

 

Ben's been buggered...

[trmoore54]

Who cares buddy..Lemme see I can buy a raw SUPPOSED original owner collection in say 9.2 or a 9.2 NON original owner collection for less. Money spent foolishly on the OO IMO.. a 9.2 is a 9.2 PERIOD regardless or origin .Who cares.,You have some nice books but i can find them just as nice so whats the big deal?? I geuss this thread was good for you to show some of your OO books ..

 

And they are ARSE as you say..

 

I'd pay over guide for OO books from a seller I trust. Why? Because I would know they were unpressed and unrestored. For example, if FT were to sell those tomorrow, stating they were untouched, I'd trust him. Buying from a trustworthy OO takes out the guesswork. Give me some 'tomato boxers' any time, over the robojo33's on Ebay. I see it as saving money in the long run.

 

Tomato boxers...

[seanfingh]

How many raw pressed books do we think there are out there? Who would go to the trouble and expense of pressing books and leaving them raw.

What makes you think people don't press books and leave them raw? Just because they aren't submitting to CGC doesn't mean there isn't a benefit.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't or couldn't happen. But we are talking about OO collections, not a collector who is putting together his or her collection. That to me is the difference. The guy that bought them and took care of them has zero incentive to press unless he is going to sub them. They are still the same books he bought at Hooks in 1975 or whatever.

 

A raw collector might press that guy's books to make them look better for his collection, I guess. I also might train myself to fart Frere Jacque but I don't see the upside for the effort in either case.

[trmoore54]

Some of F_T's OO books from that collection that he graded as 8.5's and 9.0's were coming back as 9.4's if I remember correctly.

 

You won't find a better grader or seller to deal with than Nick.

 

Although the term OO may be over used, if you can verify the books as OO there is a definite premium that some people will pay to have them.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

BTW how does one verify it was bought by them? Do they have a receipt?? Unlike a classic car that is a registerd item when purchased ,,a comic book is not so wheres the verification process ? Because someone said so?

 

Now that is a

[trmoore54]

Some of F_T's OO books from that collection that he graded as 8.5's and 9.0's were coming back as 9.4's if I remember correctly.

 

You won't find a better grader or seller to deal with than Nick.

 

Although the term OO may be over used, if you can verify the books as OO there is a definite premium that some people will pay to have them.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

BTW how does one verify it was bought by them? Do they have a receipt?? Unlike a classic car that is a registerd item when purchased ,,a comic book is not so wheres the verification process ? Because someone said so?

 

There is usually some unscientific verification method...usually just corroboration through word of mouth. These are comic books right, so nobody thought to document such silly things as provenence back in the 30's, 40's or 60's.

 

In most cases the books will have some kind of uniformity and tell tale markings (like similar newstand date stamps, markings, page quality etc) that will help "prove" that the books were purchased from the same location at the same time.

 

You should read up on Pedigrees. Many of them have fascinating stories, from OO books being sold to pay for a murder trial (Green River) to OO books being sold to pay for a long wanted sex change operation because the OO's museum where he/she was employed was under construction and he could no longer store his books there (Curator).

 

The Syd's Luncheonette collection was bought off the stands by a board member who is well respected around here. I own one of them. Most of the time it's simply word of mouth.

 

Harry (Burntboy) documented how he had purchased them off the newsstand and kept them unmanipulated for decades. They sold like wild fire and at strong prices...very strong prices.

 

All in all there is something to be said about an OO collection for those that like that sort of thing.

 

Edited to add that F_T's consignment OO collection was like a feeding frenzy around here. People gobbled these books up as they were bright and high grade.

 

You should look up the old sales threads...what was the key word, Nick, Mildenhall?

 

 

 

(from jimjum...THX Jimbo! )

(and THX Harry as well! (thumbs u )

[trmoore54]

I recall getting a scan from a guy on these boards who had some book from a "lunch collection" or something like that..Dont recall exactly..Book was in at best vg..The asking price was like 2 x vg and the rational I heard was it an original owner book..I was like WTF I would pay guide or near guide but 2x guide because you bought it off the newsstand new and beat the hell out of it??

 

Well, since you've referenced the "lunch collection" and state that the "book was in at best VG", I think I'm pretty sure who you're talking about and which book.

 

So let's set the record STRAIGHT.

 

the following PM's will help put this all into perspective for the rest of the boards.

 

__________________________________________________________________

I still have my midgrade OO copy from my Sid's Luncheonette Collection. Let me know if you're still in the market..............Harry.

__________________________________________________________________

Jerry; i had this one graded by the boards just 4 months ago.

 

33 folks voted in my poll and the numerial average was 4.7 with grades ranging from 4.0 to 6.5.

 

some excellent graders like point five and divad called it a 4.5 and 5.0 respectively.

 

I have to agree that it's a 4.5 and being a #1 issue, I'm looking for last years guide or $775 (incl s/h/ins).

 

let me know if there's still any interest...............Harry.

 

if not, best of luck in your search..........

____________________________________________________________________

 

I apprecite the offer but I think at that price ill have to pass..Nice book but i think 4.0 is prob tops on it

 

I just picked up a 6.5 for 900 so good luck to you and thanks for the offer

 

Cheers

Jerry

_________________________________________________________________

 

So let's recap, shall we??

 

1. The Boards voted by poll (33 responses) and set the numerical bar at 4.7. (VG+ - VG/F)

 

2. I agreed that 4.5 seemed a nice conservative compromise.

 

3. I offered you the book at the LAST YEARS GUIDE price of $775 which included free shipping, handling and full insurance coverage.

 

4. You passed because you thought the book was probably no better than a VG and the price was too high. (All well and good).

 

5. you come on here claiming that I was asking 2X's guide for a "beater" copy of a GL#1.

 

6. I'm SO friggin glad that I didn't sell that book to you, as I truly believe that 2008 guide on one of the hottest books in the hobby was too low....(IMHO). Time will tell...

 

Was not the same book Sorry..I remember that exchange we had but NOT the same book.I think the seller bought the book FROM you..This is NOT the book I was talking about..

Your right it IS one of the hottest books out there..

 

And Roy was correct,maybe my OP was a bit hot headed or whatever the tone was I can see how people were rubbed the wrong way

 

My bad.I am just trying to get a grip on this OO thing..If I insulted anyone MY BAD It was not my intent at all

 

OK, fair play to you for that. And apologies for my hot-headed responses. (thumbs u

 

Gone and forgotten.

 

Softie...

[trmoore54]

I'm always late to these threads...