Interesting Ethical Question from Baltimore

[awe4one]

Books were donated, books were priced, books were bought and money went to a charitable organization. I fail to see the great moral slide that everyone is sick to their stomachs over.

 

Next time, why don't some of guys that have your wicks lit donate your time and go through all the donated books, guide them out and then deal with all the hagglers who want you to discount $1 books to forty cents a piece then pay you in dimes.

 

And no, I didn't purchase any of them. I have three cats of my own to support.

 

I see the point Brian is trying to make. It's not the fact some people got a hell of a deal but rather the fact they knew the deal they were getting, took great advantage of ignorance, and boasted about it. Add in the fact it was a charity and the "crime" has added significance regardless of whether you agree with the charity or not...

 

On the otherhand, there are many examples of people boasting on this very Forum about the great deals they got in dollar boxes at this or that con, yard sales, etc. While they may not be a charity...the boasting of the "deal" and the "crime" carries some of the same symptoms that Brian's example tries to illustrate...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

Actually I disagree. I think it's a valid point from his (i.e. dealer) perspective. Your analogy only works if they are the dealer you've dealt with in the past or the one who gave you the pass. If they weren't then you're encroaching on their early buying opportunity time...

 

I can see where it's very frustrating for a dealer to lose out on great deals due to collectors running the halls buying them up, before the doors open, while they're stuck making sure their selling stock is in order in booths and venues they paid pretty good money to be at...

 

Jim

I think it is more "special" treatment than it is ethics in this case. But at the same time I see everyones point. And have always thought the "preview buying" is BS.

 

Ethical? No. But I agree that "special" access is BS and really makes going to cons meaningless for a collector looking for great deals that haven't already been sucked dry...

 

Jim

[skypinkblu]

It would have been nice for the dealers/collectors to make a larger donation, or at least point out some of the better books, not take them all...however, I have run these kinds of sales..mostly for the PTA. When you get a collection, or a ton of stuff donated, you just kind of want to get rid of it, and not have to drag it home.

 

I ran the elementary school fair each year,when my daughter was in elementary school. Archie comics, just happens to be around the corner from the school. VERY nice people...they donated boxes and boxes of digests and books.

At the time I had no clue about comic book value, I just thought they were for reading, etc.

 

We gave them away as prizes for the games. I had no clue if any were older, or had any value. If Marvel had donated Hulk 181's, I would have done the same thing. If someone had told me they were valuable, I still would have done the same thing. At the end, we had to store the left over prizes. Usually in someone's house.

 

Since we were already donating tons of hours, not many of the people working with me, wanted to also donate space.

 

Chances ARE, the people working the booth picked $1.00 because it was easier and didn't care all that much and wanted to get rid of them...but morally...I think I would have personally tossed in a few extra $$, if something was worth MUCH more than I paid.

[JuliusSeizure]

Any dealer that paid the bare minimum( $1 a book ) & bragged about their "score" is a ' person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed. Hope Karma kicks them straight in the nuts.

Karma's a neat thing. One time I won a small pile of SA JLA comics from someone on eBay who was selling for expenses related to a daughter with a brain injury. Under the circumstances, I sent them a check for what my max bid had been, even though I had won them for less. When I got my comics, the family included an extra low grade JLA #26 that hadn't sold, to thank me.

[DrWatson]

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

Actually I disagree. I think it's a valid point from his (i.e. dealer) perspective. Your analogy only works if they are the dealer you've dealt with in the past or the one who gave you the pass. If they weren't then you're encroaching on their early buying opportunity time...

 

I can see where it's very frustrating for a dealer to lose out on great deals due to collectors running the halls buying them up, before the doors open, while they're stuck making sure their selling stock is in order in booths and venues they paid pretty good money to be at...

 

Jim

I think it is more "special" treatment than it is ethics in this case. But at the same time I see everyones point. And have always thought the "preview buying" is BS.

 

Ethical? No. But I agree that "special" access is BS and really makes going to cons meaningless for a collector looking for great deals that haven't already been sucked dry...

 

Jim

The idea that all the good deals get "sucked dry" by people with special access is just not true.

[awe4one]

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

Actually I disagree. I think it's a valid point from his (i.e. dealer) perspective. Your analogy only works if they are the dealer you've dealt with in the past or the one who gave you the pass. If they weren't then you're encroaching on their early buying opportunity time...

 

I can see where it's very frustrating for a dealer to lose out on great deals due to collectors running the halls buying them up, before the doors open, while they're stuck making sure their selling stock is in order in booths and venues they paid pretty good money to be at...

 

Jim

I think it is more "special" treatment than it is ethics in this case. But at the same time I see everyones point. And have always thought the "preview buying" is BS.

 

Ethical? No. But I agree that "special" access is BS and really makes going to cons meaningless for a collector looking for great deals that haven't already been sucked dry...

 

Jim

The idea that all the good deals get "sucked dry" by people with special access is just not true.

 

All? No. But a damn good percentage does. Especially when you're talking about a new collection from a new dealer/collector at a con.

 

Jim

[THE_BEYONDER]

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

Actually I disagree. I think it's a valid point from his (i.e. dealer) perspective. Your analogy only works if they are the dealer you've dealt with in the past or the one who gave you the pass. If they weren't then you're encroaching on their early buying opportunity time...

 

I can see where it's very frustrating for a dealer to lose out on great deals due to collectors running the halls buying them up, before the doors open, while they're stuck making sure their selling stock is in order in booths and venues they paid pretty good money to be at...

 

Jim

I think it is more "special" treatment than it is ethics in this case. But at the same time I see everyones point. And have always thought the "preview buying" is BS.

 

Ethical? No. But I agree that "special" access is BS and really makes going to cons meaningless for a collector looking for great deals that haven't already been sucked dry...

 

Jim

The idea that all the good deals get "sucked dry" by people with special access is just not true.

 

The key word being "all"...right?

[DrWatson]

No, not even most of the deals are purchased. Only the obvious ones go quickly and even then, most dealers don't even have their wall books up at that point. More often than not, early access gives you time to take care of pre-arranged deals or review books that you asked a specific dealer to bring to the show.

[Speedy-D]

I'm not sure how many other Baltimore attendees present at the con saw the Humane Society set up selling off books for $1 a piece basically as a donation.

 

I basically blew right by, donated some money, but got no books, and apparently, it was a large donation of comics made by someone. In it were some fairly nice bronze books as well as a number of keys (WWBN 32, 33, ASM 298, 299, 300) -- and these were, of course, sold mostly to dealers.

 

I've heard this story second hand, but know for a fact it's true since it was later verified that the pickups were made by some of the dollar book dealers (who got some and then were sorry they missed out on getting the "big" scores) who saw the books first hand. Now that being said, I don't know what exactly the dollar book dealers did or didn't do to help the humane society, but from the sound of it, there was some bragging about the "scores" they made.

 

I have a small problem with this in that it isn't some dealer set up who picked up a new collection but was too lazy to go through it. It's the humane society and the people running knew very little to nothing about comics, as they admitted. It's a charity -- maybe donating a little more than a buck a book would have been appropriate? How about someone pointing out to the charity, say one of these dealers, that you could make much more or cull a few of these better books out for them to help them. I'm not saying the dealer couldn't make some money on it, but how about evening it out a bit to help the charity.

 

Had I seen this, I would have certainly let the people know who were running the booth to let me go through and pull some of the books out that were worth well more than a dollar so they knew and understood what they had.

 

Anyone think I'm wrong? Thoughts, opinions?

 

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been said.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that they didn't know what they had. They knew they were at a comic convention, so they knew that some comics are worth much more than others. And with something like Spider-Man 300, they could easily have seem copies on dealer walls selling for much more. It's quite possible that a) they knew what they had and figured the sale of a bunch of comics would average out the deals on the few valuable ones, and b) they were banking on donations and such making up for the "loss."

 

It is annoying to think of dealers grabbing all the good stuff then instantly reselling to collectors for the regular price. But hey, that's how it goes right?

[THE_BEYONDER]

No, not even most of the deals are purchased. Only the obvious ones go quickly and even then, most dealers don't even have their wall books up at that point. More often than not, early access gives you time to take care of pre-arranged deals or review books that you asked a specific dealer to bring to the show.

 

What do wall books have to do with anything?

[awe4one]

No, not even most of the deals are purchased. Only the obvious ones go quickly and even then, most dealers don't even have their wall books up at that point. More often than not, early access gives you time to take care of pre-arranged deals or review books that you asked a specific dealer to bring to the show.

 

You've been hanging around the established dealers booths too long. You only have to read older con reports around here to see where the early access folks wheeled and dealed their way through cons...usually with comics they grabbed before the doors opened...

 

Jim

[Sal]

there's no way - none - to prevent "deals" from happening in the setup and pre-open time available to anyone who can figure out a way to get in early.

 

 

you can lament it, or you can find a way to be one of the "special ones" who get early access. generally speaking, the people who get in to conventions early are either people who dealers know are going to spend a good amount of money, are going to offer material assistance in the form of helping load/unload/set up or who are not going to pillage every great deal there is to be had.

 

it's a non-issue. period.

[THE_BEYONDER]

[awe4one]

there's no way - none - to prevent "deals" from happening in the setup and pre-open time available to anyone who can figure out a way to get in early.

 

 

you can lament it, or you can find a way to be one of the "special ones" who get early access. generally speaking, the people who get in to conventions early are either people who dealers know are going to spend a good amount of money, are going to offer material assistance in the form of helping load/unload/set up or who are not going to pillage every great deal there is to be had.

 

it's a non-issue. period.

 

It's a huge issue for those willing to spend a good amount of money but don't have the time to "play the game"...

 

It's a problem and far from a "non-issue"...

 

Jim

[Flaming_Telepath]

No, not even most of the deals are purchased. Only the obvious ones go quickly and even then, most dealers don't even have their wall books up at that point. More often than not, early access gives you time to take care of pre-arranged deals or review books that you asked a specific dealer to bring to the show.

 

Jim, I'm fairly certain that shows here in the UK are not that much different to shows in the US...other than one's sh!te and the other isn't.

 

On that basis, as a dealer at UK shows for many, many years, I can categorically state that the vast majority of pre-door sales have not been arranged in the slightest. It's mainly dealers or 'helpers' trying to get the 'good stuff' before any one else gets in.

 

It's also a double-edged sword as without a good 'pre-show', many dealers would lose their shirt on the show. Would they prefer to sell to the paying attendee? Of course they would, as their margins will be higher and they'll have happy customers likely to return. However, what are they going to do when a dealer hands them eighty books and reaches for his chequebook?

[awe4one]

No, not even most of the deals are purchased. Only the obvious ones go quickly and even then, most dealers don't even have their wall books up at that point. More often than not, early access gives you time to take care of pre-arranged deals or review books that you asked a specific dealer to bring to the show.

 

Jim, I'm fairly certain that shows here in the UK are not that much different to shows in the US...other than one's sh!te and the other isn't.

 

On that basis, as a dealer at UK shows for many, many years, I can categorically state that the vast majority of pre-door sales have not been arranged in the slightest. It's mainly dealers or 'helpers' trying to get the 'good stuff' before any one else gets in.

 

It's also a double-edged sword as without a good 'pre-show', many dealers would lose their shirt on the show. Would they prefer to sell to the paying attendee? Of course they would, as their margins will be higher and they'll have happy customers likely to return. However, what are they going to do when a dealer hands them eighty books and reaches for his chequebook?

 

My experience selling at European shows mirrors the same...somewhat. I was the new kid on the block and a majority of my sales at the first couple of shows were done before the doors opened when dealers were very keen at looking at the collection I brought. It got so bad, and I wasn't all that comfortable with the attention before collectors looked at the books, that I kept all the boxes sealed until the doors opened. Even then, the first in line were the dealers...

 

Jim

[EastEnd]

This is the big reason why I rarely buy books at conventions anymore -- good deals on quality material are few and far between and I just lose patience trying to find the stuff that the pre-show buyers missed. I find it much easier to use other sources.

[joeypost]

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

Actually I disagree. I think it's a valid point from his (i.e. dealer) perspective. Your analogy only works if they are the dealer you've dealt with in the past or the one who gave you the pass. If they weren't then you're encroaching on their early buying opportunity time...

 

I can see where it's very frustrating for a dealer to lose out on great deals due to collectors running the halls buying them up, before the doors open, while they're stuck making sure their selling stock is in order in booths and venues they paid pretty good money to be at...

 

Jim

I think it is more "special" treatment than it is ethics in this case. But at the same time I see everyones point. And have always thought the "preview buying" is BS.

 

Ethical? No. But I agree that "special" access is BS and really makes going to cons meaningless for a collector looking for great deals that haven't already been sucked dry...

 

Jim

The idea that all the good deals get "sucked dry" by people with special access is just not true.

 

The books I should reap the greatest benefit from (for my personal collection as well as flipping) were purchased on Saturday late in the afternoon. I had purchased only 2 books on Friday evening. 2 of the dealers had a no-peek policy until Saturday AM. Even though I complained about it I applaud what they were doing. If you have the patience and a good eye, great deals can be found right up until the shows closing.

[Dale Roberts]

You asked for opinions, so here is mine.

And this is my problem with this whole thread....

 

You say it was dealers, yet you don't know who, or at least don't name who. That automatically casts aspersions on every dealer present. Giving those who are inclined to do such a thing another reason to blame all greedy unethical dealers for all of the world's problems. I would suppose that some early customers(you know, the guys who borrow badges from dealers to go around the room and buy the deals up in the room before the show starts while the dealers are setting up their booths) might have bought up some of these supposed great deals as well. (See how it feels?).

 

The problem with this is not a "dealer" problem, it is a "person" problem. Regardless of who it was, it probably should have been handled differently. Dealers get blamed for enough without piling on.

 

For the record, this is the first I have heard about it, and I didn't buy any of the books. I know for a fact that Ricky Evans did not buy any of them either.

 

I suspect you were not talking about me, Ted, Bob, Ricky, etc, but in the future, it would really be helpful not to lump us all in together.

 

Your overly sensitive friendly neighborhood comic book dealer,

Dale

 

1) I do know who the dealers were who bought them (I just don't have it first hand, but ironically enough, it was another dealer who pointed it out to me -- all done by dollar book dealers)... no it wasn't any major dealer.

 

2) I agree, it is a "person" problem. If a knowledgeable collector did the same thing, I'd feel the same way, especially if they bragged about the score.

 

3) I didn't "lump you all together" -- you've done this in the past with reading my posts -- I try to be careful with my language -- I identified that the buyers were some of the "$1 book dealers" unless you, Bob or Ricky become $1 book dealers, you've again not read my post carefully enough but assumed based on other posts I was referring to any and all dealers.

 

4) For the record do you know how many books I bought at the show before the doors opened this time? 1. From Richie. I fully admit that there are times when I do get good deals before the show opens. I ask dealers for a badge if I have spent a lot of money with them in the past or intend to at that show. So if I also get a good deal before the show opens, that's part of it. Nothing unethical about it so the analogy of lumping we who get badges together isn't exactly the same.

 

5) I understand your points Dale, and the bottom line is, you basically agree with me, but want to "defend dealers" as a whole. If I had first hand knowledge, i.e. I saw the actual dealer do this right in front of me, and knew the whole story, then I'd name names. But I can't fill in all the blanks, so I'm throwing it out there. Next time, I won't just say "dealer" but any "dealer or collector" when making a point like this. Still, dealers have specialized knowledge and in this situation, I do and would hold them to a higher standard.

 

Brian,

You know I have no problem with collectors getting in early to cons. I generally have badges set aside at every shows for some guys I know. I don't remember specifically, but I may have even given you a badge at some point, and I would do so again. My problem was the direction of the post. Even if it was dollar book guys, that still only narrows it down to 20 guys in the room and it was probably no more than 1 or 2 guys. And I did read your post, but some others may not have and just read some of the dealer bashing posts which followed.

I don't think dealers should be held to a higher standard. Everyone should act with ethics and a sense of right and wrong. That being said, who among us has not done something which could be considered wrong and just simply didn't give it as much thought as we should have.

I personally don't really have a problem with the situation. Sure, would be nice if someone had mentioned something to the people, but who is to say that they didn't. As someone stated, the humane society people probably could care less either way. Not like there were not 30 ASM #300s on the walls already around the room, so they weren't going to get 100.00 out of it anyway. And if someone had donated 15.00 instead of 1.00, in the overall scheme of things, it is not going to make a difference to the organization.

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

What I found myself doing more and more often was telling the dealers/helpers that they could have the books they wanted, but only an hour after the show had opened (they're generally one day shows in the UK).

 

I couldn't afford to turn away that much business, but I also didn't want to disappoint the true customers. If the books were still there after an hour, dealers could come and take what they wanted. (thumbs u