To all who press books

[TheShadowKnows]

I disagree. The book is no longer slabbed and therefore has no business being listed in the census. The book that is represented in the census no longer exists.

Schroedinger's Cat? If the book has been put into the census at a grade, assuming no resubmit, what does it matter to the census if it were cracked? How does anyone know what happens to any of the books that are put into the census?

Once a book is removed from the slab any number of things can happen to it. The census is a representation of graded books in existence. Once it's cracked, it's no longer graded. It is a book that was once graded by CGC and therefore, should not be represented in the census.

 

It's just that the census is a representation of slabbed books. If it's cracked out, it's no longer a slabbed book.

 

Ultimately, I don't care. The census is screwed six ways from Sunday anyways. It and the Registry are nothing but sales tools for CGC.

DrWatsons 24k post

[FFB]

I disagree. The book is no longer slabbed and therefore has no business being listed in the census. The book that is represented in the census no longer exists.

Schroedinger's Cat? If the book has been put into the census at a grade, assuming no resubmit, what does it matter to the census if it were cracked? How does anyone know what happens to any of the books that are put into the census?

 

Actually, since you brought up Schroedinger's Cat, quantum mechanics dictates that until you crack the slab, the book in the census both exists and does not exist.

The census is the box and the slab is the cat. Once the book is in the census, it both exists in the slab and not in the slab

 

Until you corrected me, my analogy was both apposite and inapposite.

[towards2112]

I disagree. The book is no longer slabbed and therefore has no business being listed in the census. The book that is represented in the census no longer exists.

Schroedinger's Cat? If the book has been put into the census at a grade, assuming no resubmit, what does it matter to the census if it were cracked? How does anyone know what happens to any of the books that are put into the census?

 

Actually, since you brought up Schroedinger's Cat, quantum mechanics dictates that until you crack the slab, the book in the census both exists and does not exist.

The census is the box and the slab is the cat. Once the book is in the census, it both exists in the slab and not in the slab

 

Until you corrected me, my analogy was both apposite and inapposite.

 

Is that lawyer speak ?? I never grajated colegge.

[Sal]

 

I'll disagree, and I can understand how we can differ philosophically on this, but I don't have time to get into a long drawn out debate today.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

For me, when I buy a book for my personal collection the plastic around it is incidental.

For CGC it's a method of guaranteeing the grade until the book finds an end user.

Once the end user is found and if the book is cracked, until the book is reslabbed, it's really a non issue because that book goes no where without the label.

As long as the label stays with the book, and it usually does when the book passes from collector to collector, my opinion is that it doesn't matter.

The census is only "wrong" if a book is regraded and the label is not mailed in.

I understand that in the purest sense the census is only supposed to represent books that are in slabs, but in this is not realistic, since comics were made for reading and many books do not stay in their slabs. Rather than looking at the census as the number of books sitting in plastic slabs I have always looked at it as the number of books that have been graded by CGC. As long as the book is traveling with the label it's really one and the same. In the pastic, out of the plastic, the two are together.

 

this doesn't make any sense.

 

the census is purported to represent the number of slabbed books in that grade. not an existential guesstimate of the number of books that theoretically may have been graded in the past and were subsequently cracked out.

 

there's absolutely zero benefit to anyone to maintain a count of books that were ever at some point in time graded. it simply does not take into consideration books that were cracked and resubbed but whose labels were not returned, books that were cracked out and then damaged/improved or books that were cracked out and simply resubbed.

 

heck, if the same book gets graded / resubbed four times, how does that fit into your view? i don't see how it can

[VintageComics]

 

I'll disagree, and I can understand how we can differ philosophically on this, but I don't have time to get into a long drawn out debate today.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

For me, when I buy a book for my personal collection the plastic around it is incidental.

For CGC it's a method of guaranteeing the grade until the book finds an end user.

Once the end user is found and if the book is cracked, until the book is reslabbed, it's really a non issue because that book goes no where without the label.

As long as the label stays with the book, and it usually does when the book passes from collector to collector, my opinion is that it doesn't matter.

The census is only "wrong" if a book is regraded and the label is not mailed in.

I understand that in the purest sense the census is only supposed to represent books that are in slabs, but in this is not realistic, since comics were made for reading and many books do not stay in their slabs. Rather than looking at the census as the number of books sitting in plastic slabs I have always looked at it as the number of books that have been graded by CGC. As long as the book is traveling with the label it's really one and the same. In the pastic, out of the plastic, the two are together.

 

this doesn't make any sense.

 

the census is purported to represent the number of slabbed books in that grade. not an existential guesstimate of the number of books that theoretically may have been graded in the past and were subsequently cracked out.

 

there's absolutely zero benefit to anyone to maintain a count of books that were ever at some point in time graded. it simply does not take into consideration books that were cracked and resubbed but whose labels were not returned, books that were cracked out and then damaged/improved or books that were cracked out and simply resubbed.

 

heck, if the same book gets graded / resubbed four times, how does that fit into your view? i don't see how it can

 

It makes sense if the label travels with the book. I always return the label when a book is being regraded.

 

As long as the book and label are together (whether the label and book are both returned to CGC upon a regrade or in a Mylar together) the census is more or less accurate.

[trmoore54]

As already mentioned....CGC used to give a discount if you submitted the old label with the book. Why they no longer offer that discount is beyond me.

 

Well you are the beyonder...

[trmoore54]

I have a question for pressers: how much do you charge for a basic press? Not S&H, none of that, just the fee to take one book and press some minor defects out (spine roll, NCBCs, etc.)

 

I only ask as I am having a discussion with someone on another board who says that, using Son Of Satan #1 as an example, if you had a 9.6 ($30 book) and it could be pressed into a 9.8 (a $300 book) it wouldn't be financially viable to get the 9.6, press it, re-sub it, and then sell it. Heck, just an answer to that question would suffice, but whatever info you want to give is fine with me.

 

PM me if you like, I swear to anyone and everyone I am not trying to "gain information" to be used in some un-toward manner.

 

 

 

-slym

 

It is extremely difficult to find a 9.6 that is a 9.8 candidate from a press job. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is extremely difficult. 9.6s tend to be unimprovable because the single defect taking it down to 9.6 is usually a small spine stress (not pressable) or a fuzzy spine corner (also not pressable).

 

So if the other person's point is that you'd have to buy a lot of 9.6s, press them all, have them all regraded, and then make a profit based on the few books that regrade at 9.8, he's right. You're almost certain to lose money that way.

 

Scott,

Wouldn't this logic apply to 9.4's and 9.2's as well (even more so)? It sounds supportable in theory, but I think the elevation to a 9.8 is really a random act of senselessness on CGC's part.

-d

 

Random acts of senselessness...lot of that going around lately...

[FFB]

I have a question for pressers: how much do you charge for a basic press? Not S&H, none of that, just the fee to take one book and press some minor defects out (spine roll, NCBCs, etc.)

 

I only ask as I am having a discussion with someone on another board who says that, using Son Of Satan #1 as an example, if you had a 9.6 ($30 book) and it could be pressed into a 9.8 (a $300 book) it wouldn't be financially viable to get the 9.6, press it, re-sub it, and then sell it. Heck, just an answer to that question would suffice, but whatever info you want to give is fine with me.

 

PM me if you like, I swear to anyone and everyone I am not trying to "gain information" to be used in some un-toward manner.

 

 

 

-slym

 

It is extremely difficult to find a 9.6 that is a 9.8 candidate from a press job. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is extremely difficult. 9.6s tend to be unimprovable because the single defect taking it down to 9.6 is usually a small spine stress (not pressable) or a fuzzy spine corner (also not pressable).

 

So if the other person's point is that you'd have to buy a lot of 9.6s, press them all, have them all regraded, and then make a profit based on the few books that regrade at 9.8, he's right. You're almost certain to lose money that way.

 

Scott,

Wouldn't this logic apply to 9.4's and 9.2's as well (even more so)? It sounds supportable in theory, but I think the elevation to a 9.8 is really a random act of senselessness on CGC's part.

-d

 

Yes, it's even harder to press a 9.4 or a 9.2 into a 9.8. But 9.4s and 9.2s are a lot cheaper to buy than 9.6s, so if you get lucky once for every ten 9.4s or 9.2s you press (which is still probably optimistic because a 9.8 is essentially a perfect book and it's hard to get there from 9.2 or 9.4) and get one CGC 9.8, you might make money. Plus, you can still sell all the 9.6s you got from the 9.4s and 9.2s and maybe make enough money to cover your grading fees plus a little extra above your cost of the books for the ones that didn't make it to 9.8.

[MCMiles]

I always send in the labels, wether pressed or not.

[MCMiles]

I'm wondering... and really have been for a while. Many people crack books out of thier cgc cases , press them, and then resubmit them in to get re-graded. I was wondering if the people who are doing this send the old labels back to CGC so they can get taken off the census.

 

I mean it seems that in time, with all the pressing, cracking and re-subbing that's going on, the CGC census will become watered down with thousands and thousands of books that don't exist. For fake example... their are 8 INCREDIBLE MAN #1's that are listed in the census when in actuality there are only 4 copies that are known.

 

I guess this is just a plea to send in your old labels... lets at least try to keep the census somewhat legit.

 

Martin

 

Wouldn't a promotion of this type invalidate their certification of the original grade? I agree with your intent but for a company to openingly encourage resubmittals doesn't breed conficence that maybe the origimal grade wasn't correct.

 

It's a self defeating promotion...

 

Jim

 

Offering a $5 discount for years wouldn't be considered open encouragement for re-subs?

 

Not to mention, to discourage re-subs for any reason, would be potentialy eliminating additional business.

 

While I'm sure CGC expected there to be a certain amount of crack and re-subs based on those that would gamble for better grades, They were also providing a service that would allow people to buy comics with more confidence through mail or on line. Many of those people may be collectors that would remove the book from the slab, and may even have the book slabbed again in the future. It's been posted in this thread by collectors that they crack many books and save the labels.

 

I suspect that from the onset, CGC hoped to keep the census as accurate as possible, and figured that, for various reasons many books would be cracked and re-subbed. Therefore, they offered a discount in hopes of having as many labels returned as possible.

 

With pressing and the increase of re-subs, I wouldn't doubt that CGC removed the discount simply based on the amount of money being lost by discounting for old labels. With the goal of an accurate census as much as dust in the wind, why offer the $5 discount any longer. They probably only had to look at the total discounts given to some of the big dealers (the same ones thought to never turn in a label) and decided to keep that money for themselves.

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have two Detective #31s in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

[divad]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

[MCMiles]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

 

That's why I included the part highlighted in blue in my post.

SCS, PR BS, PQ, inconsistency, variance of opinion - I'll take those over the grades and opinions offered by most on their raw books, especially any from tomato boxes.

[DrWatson]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

 

That's why I included the part highlighted in blue in my post.

SCS, PR BS, PQ, inconsistency, variance of opinion - I'll take those over the grades and opinions offered by most on their raw books, especially any from tomato boxes.

Burn.

[MCMiles]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

 

That's why I included the part highlighted in blue in my post.

SCS, PR BS, PQ, inconsistency, variance of opinion - I'll take those over the grades and opinions offered by most on their raw books, especially any from tomato boxes.

 

Wait. I forgot this:

[divad]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

 

That's why I included the part highlighted in blue in my post.

SCS, PR BS, PQ, inconsistency, variance of opinion - I'll take those over the grades and opinions offered by most on their raw books, especially any from tomato boxes.

 

Wait. I forgot this:

 

Once again, the insecure personalize a discussion. Oh, I forgot this

[divad]

The smartest thing I ever did on these boards:

 

*** You are ignoring this user ***

[DrWatson]

The smartest thing I ever did on these boards:

 

*** You are ignoring this user ***

[MCMiles]

 

As far as the census being accurate when a label is still with a book that has been cracked, but not re-subbed.

Wrong!

The census is supposed to represent comics in CGC holders that have not been tampered with. Those books have a guarantee (for what it's worth) of grade and PQ. Once the book has been removed, that guarantee doesn't exist any longer, and therefore should not be represented on the census. It doesn't matter if someone thinks they are the King of Comics, if the book has been removed from the holder, there is an infinite number of things that could affect the grade. Sure, theoretically, if you have a Detective #31 in 4.0 on the census and one is removed from the holder, then to any knowledgeable collector/buyer there are two VG 'Tec' #31s in existence. Truly, now there is only one that is CGC certified to be a VG, and should be the only one on the census. Someone else might have set their crack pipe down on the other one.

 

SCS Or shaken the H-E-double-L out of it. Most of us don't buy that PR stuff, and don't believe that a book in a slab is any better protected than a book properly stored. Nor do many agree with PQ designations which appear to vary with the wind (or to whoever has "requested a re-evaluation" of same). And that doesn't even touch on variances of opinion as to defects and their effect on grade. The census is flawed, but so is the process, and so are all of us.

 

That's why I included the part highlighted in blue in my post.

SCS, PR BS, PQ, inconsistency, variance of opinion - I'll take those over the grades and opinions offered by most on their raw books, especially any from tomato boxes.

 

Wait. I forgot this:

 

Once again, the insecure personalize a discussion. Oh, I forgot this

 

Good one. (thumbs u

[fc]

All one has to do to understand the long term ramifications of slabbing is to visit

a third party coin grading forum.

 

Basically this discussion has been hammered out thousands of times on coin

forums and the long term consequences of it are already apparent to coin collectors who have decades of information on it.

 

I cannot possibly be the only person here who knows both coins and comics? I

highly doubt that.

 

1. census - it will become totally useless for rare items.

2. grade inflation is a fact in third party grading. an item will seek out the highest

grade possible and then be tombed for life. (perhaps a collector without enough

knowledge will crack it out losing a huge percentage of its value but that is up to them).

3. comic doctors will manipulate third party graders and the system as much as possible. To the point no one knows where the truth starts and ends.

4. the registry is a great marketing tool for slabbing. fact.

5. soon a another service will arise that will sticker slabbed comics as having a legit

grade and give their approval on it. After all you do not want to end up with a dog

in a slab and get laughed at. Allow another expert to take some of your hard earned

cash for giving it their thoughts.

6. gift grades will become more apparent. see bulk submissions for an example.

7. over time more and more mistakes will be made until the point they become an

every day occurrence for people to find on ebay, conventions, and comic stores.

8. grading is subjective. arguing over the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 becomes

so pointless over time. Watch for the people who think they can even tell the

difference between those two grades. A la 9.7.

 

should i continue? i am sure most here already know this if they are a coin collector for a few years. I am also sure the savvier comic collectors also know this

but perhaps they can learn a few things from other hobbies on how all this will play out.

[towards2112]

All one has to do to understand the long term ramifications of slabbing is to visit

a third party coin grading forum.

 

Basically this discussion has been hammered out thousands of times on coin

forums and the long term consequences of it are already apparent to coin collectors who have decades of information on it.

 

I cannot possibly be the only person here who knows both coins and comics? I

highly doubt that.

 

1. census - it will become totally useless for rare items.

2. grade inflation is a fact in third party grading. an item will seek out the highest

grade possible and then be tombed for life. (perhaps a collector without enough

knowledge will crack it out losing a huge percentage of its value but that is up to them).

3. comic doctors will manipulate third party graders and the system as much as possible. To the point no one knows where the truth starts and ends.

4. the registry is a great marketing tool for slabbing. fact.

5. soon a another service will arise that will sticker slabbed comics as having a legit

grade and give their approval on it. After all you do not want to end up with a dog

in a slab and get laughed at. Allow another expert to take some of your hard earned

cash for giving it their thoughts.

6. gift grades will become more apparent. see bulk submissions for an example.

7. over time more and more mistakes will be made until the point they become an

every day occurrence for people to find on ebay, conventions, and comic stores.

8. grading is subjective. arguing over the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 becomes

so pointless over time. Watch for the people who think they can even tell the

difference between those two grades. A la 9.7.

 

should i continue? i am sure most here already know this if they are a coin collector for a few years. I am also sure the savvier comic collectors also know this

but perhaps they can learn a few things from other hobbies on how all this will play out.

 

shall we discuss slabbed stamps ??