How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[Flaming_Telepath]

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

If we turned the clock back 10 years and CGC policy was that "small amounts of trimming that left the book within off-the-press variances are impossible to detect with any consistancy, thus will garner a blue unrestored label."

 

Would trimming still be rejected by almost the entire comic book community?

 

I doubt it. If the benefit is a blue label, the levels of acceptance would be high.

 

Let's be fair here, all previous standards have gone by the wayside and these days, whatever CGC says is the case, that's the way people play it.

[Mr. Zipper]

Let's be fair here, all previous standards have gone by the wayside and these days, whatever CGC says is the case, that's the way people play it.

 

My point exactly.

 

We hear people parroting the CGC talking points all day long -- trimming isn't restoration... it's destruction!

 

(Yet, gouging out a color touch seems to be quite alright. )

 

The current views on trimming aren't nearly as long-standing, universal and immutable as some would have you believe. Much of it stemmed from CGC's stance. Just like the view of pressing seems to have been formed in great part by the "what would CGC do?" mentality.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Let's be fair here, all previous standards have gone by the wayside and these days, whatever CGC says is the case, that's the way people play it.

 

My point exactly.

 

We hear people parroting the CGC talking points all day long -- trimming isn't restoration... it's destruction!

 

(Yet, gouging out a color touch seems to be quite alright. )

 

The current views on trimming aren't nearly as long-standing, universal and immutable as some would have you believe. Much of it stemmed from CGC's stance. Just like the view of pressing seems to have been formed in great part by the "what would CGC do?" mentality.

 

I'm afraid that we gave up the reins to this hobby a few years back...to a profit-making organisation part-owned by the world's largest comic auction house, no less.

 

The ship's now sailed and there's just too much money tied up in 'product' for people to have the desire to wrestle control back.

[DrWatson]

I'm sure you have mentioned it before, but I can't recall. Are you going to be selling CGC graded books in your new shop?

[DrWatson]

Oh, and tth2, with all the high dollar, high grade books you have bought and sold through Heritage, how many books do you think that afforded them to acquire and have pressed with the commissions they made off the transactions?

[Dale Roberts]

Let's be fair here, all previous standards have gone by the wayside and these days, whatever CGC says is the case, that's the way people play it.

 

My point exactly.

 

We hear people parroting the CGC talking points all day long -- trimming isn't restoration... it's destruction!

 

(Yet, gouging out a color touch seems to be quite alright. )

 

The current views on trimming aren't nearly as long-standing, universal and immutable as some would have you believe. Much of it stemmed from CGC's stance. Just like the view of pressing seems to have been formed in great part by the "what would CGC do?" mentality.

 

I'm afraid that we gave up the reins to this hobby a few years back...to a profit-making organisation part-owned by the world's largest comic auction house, no less.

 

The ship's now sailed and there's just too much money tied up in 'product' for people to have the desire to wrestle control back.

 

I would actually agree with some of this. I don't see how you can compare trimming and pressing though. Pressing brings a book back closer to its original state by flattening non color breaking bends. Trimming on the other hand takes mass away from the original book, thus destroying original material. These 2 concepts push these two techniques to opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

I do agree that CGC has taken the reigns on establishing what is accepted and what is not accepted. They are a powerhouse, and have virtually absolute power within the industry right now. Personally, I think it is horrendous that they are encouraging people to write with a sharpie on the front cover of comics.

[jbud73]

Oh, and tth2, with all the high dollar, high grade books you have bought and sold through Heritage, how many books do you think that afforded them to acquire and have pressed with the commissions they made off the transactions?

 

I really hope the underpinning assertion here is not, if you own CGC books, or deal w/ Heritage then you can't question the practices of either entity.

 

Eyes wide shut,

Don't ask questions,

 

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity." Acton

 

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

[DrWatson]

Oh, and tth2, with all the high dollar, high grade books you have bought and sold through Heritage, how many books do you think that afforded them to acquire and have pressed with the commissions they made off the transactions?

 

I really hope the underpinning assertion here is not, if you own CGC books, or deal w/ Heritage then you can't question the practices of either entity.

No, not at all. However, since everyone loves over the top analogies, how can one complain about the war in Afghanistan and then continue to send funds to the Taliban?

[sborock]

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

Very true.

 

Problem is, questioning is fine, but getting all high and moral about certain views, then trying to force those views on other people while using the "machine" is quite different.

 

Atleast I think that is what Jim was getting at. Not trying to put words in his mouth. Sometimes good steak, but never words

[DrWatson]

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

Very true.

 

Problem is, questioning is fine, but getting all high and moral about certain views, then trying to force those views on other people while using the "machine" is quite different.

 

At least I think that is what Jim was getting at. Not trying to put words in his mouth. Sometimes good steak, but never words

Pretty much and you aren't getting anywhere near my mouth or otherwise.

 

[jbud73]

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

Very true.

 

Problem is, questioning is fine, but getting all high and moral about certain views, then trying to force those views on other people while using the "machine" is quite different.

 

At least I think that is what Jim was getting at. Not trying to put words in his mouth. Sometimes good steak, but never words

 

Possibly, but the "love it or leave it" mentality is usually linked to a lack of thought process. If you throw out the extremes, I've always believed that the discourse will come through. In the discussions over NDP, on this board at least, I still believe all the mud was worth it if one collector became aware of "all the cards that were on the table." Even if that single collector chose to acknowledge it, factor it, and the end result didn't change their collecting mentality one bit.

 

I'm sure there are those who are a little distraught that NDP has proliferated, that the tactic didn't stay in the hands of the few - it was a very profitable inside joke after all. In your statement, you would need to extrapolate the phrases "certain views" the mechanism through which those views are being "forced" and whom the views are being forced upon. Someone could say well if you don't like CGC don't use it, another person could say, well if you don't like what you read don't read it - I would say I hope both those views are not the standard through which anything of merit is hinged upon.

[sborock]

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

Very true.

 

Problem is, questioning is fine, but getting all high and moral about certain views, then trying to force those views on other people while using the "machine" is quite different.

 

At least I think that is what Jim was getting at. Not trying to put words in his mouth. Sometimes good steak, but never words

Pretty much and you aren't getting anywhere near my mouth or otherwise.

 

You got a purdy mouth, boy.

 

PADDLE FASTER!

[pickycollector]

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

If we turned the clock back 10 years and CGC policy was that "small amounts of trimming that left the book within off-the-press variances are impossible to detect with any consistancy, thus will garner a blue unrestored label."

 

Would trimming still be rejected by almost the entire comic book community?

 

Very good point indeed.

 

Yes, it's true in theory that trimming removes something from the comic, other forms of restoration (color touch-up, pieces added, reinforcement, etc) add something to the comic and pressing does alter the form of the comic.

 

About detection, micro-trimming can be very difficult to detect too (ask CGC as a few trimmed books still sit in blue label slabs) but if a comic book has no overlap on either upper edge and lower edge, chances are that the book has been trimmed, especially a SA book, but I cannot be 100% sure if the job is very well done and because some books were originally miscut.

 

As for pressing, if the spine of a comic book is so thin and flattened that it does not show that little spine "plump", then it does not look normal and chances are that the book has been pressed but here too I cannot be 100% sure if the job is very well done and because some books were originally more pressed because of the position of the staples.

 

The general consensus and opinion about pressing may change over time, as it did with restoration and trimming over the past years; but once the "work" is done on a book, it's done and here to stay. The main point is therefore disclosure. If you think that restoration, pressing or even trimming can "improve" the look of a comic, it is your opinion (that I may do not share) but we can agree to disagree, as long as you disclose the fact so that I can decide if I want the book and how much I am willing to pay for it. If you trim a book because you really believe that it does enhance a book and disclose the fact, I am in a position to make a rational decision based on my own preferences. You are not "cheating" me even though I strongly believe that trimming is bad. I will just pass on the book.

 

It's all about ethics.

[NewWorldOrder]

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

If we turned the clock back 10 years and CGC policy was that "small amounts of trimming that left the book within off-the-press variances are impossible to detect with any consistancy, thus will garner a blue unrestored label."

 

Would trimming still be rejected by almost the entire comic book community?

 

Very good point indeed.

 

Yes, it's true in theory that trimming removes something from the comic, other forms of restoration (color touch-up, pieces added, reinforcement, etc) add something to the comic and pressing does alter the form of the comic.

 

About detection, micro-trimming can be very difficult to detect too (ask CGC as a few trimmed books still sit in blue label slabs) but if a comic book has no overlap on either upper edge and lower edge, chances are that the book has been trimmed, especially a SA book, but I cannot be 100% sure if the job is very well done and because some books were originally miscut.

 

As for pressing, if the spine of a comic book is so thin and flattened that it does not show that little spine "plump", then it does not look normal and chances are that the book has been pressed but here too I cannot be 100% sure if the job is very well done and because some books were originally more pressed because of the position of the staples.

 

The general consensus and opinion about pressing may change over time, as it did with restoration and trimming over the past years; but once the "work" is done on a book, it's done and here to stay. The main point is therefore disclosure. If you think that restoration, pressing or even trimming can "improve" the look of a comic, it is your opinion (that I may do not share) but we can agree to disagree, as long as you disclose the fact so that I can decide if I want the book and how much I am willing to pay for it. If you trim a book because you really believe that it does enhance a book and disclose the fact, I am in a position to make a rational decision based on my own preferences. You are not "cheating" me even though I strongly believe that trimming is bad. I will just pass on the book.

 

It's all about ethics.

 

There is no theory my friend, trimming obviously takes away from a book.

 

I don’t have to assume, but I know that 99% of the comic collectors out there view trimming as the most destructive thing you can do to a comic book. We all know the 1% of people who fit in that equation are trimming for profit and deceit only to cheat people.

 

I see how you may think you can tell if a book has been pressed, but I think you might be assuming the book has been pressed rather actually knowing it has been.

 

There are many books that fit into your assumption of a pressed book that have not been.

 

[pickycollector]

There is no theory my friend, trimming obviously takes away from a book.

 

 

I agree with you 110% on that but I think you didn't get my point. For me also, trimming obviously takes away from a book. And restoration obviously adds to a book. And pressing obviously alters the shape of a book.

 

 

 

I don’t have to assume, but I know that 99% of the comic collectors out there view trimming as the most destructive thing you can do to a comic book. We all know the 1% of people who fit in that equation are trimming for profit and deceit only to cheat people.

 

Actually that 1% that are still doing trimming are doing it AND DO NOT disclose the fact; they would not cheat people if they were disclosing trimming.

 

 

 

I see how you may think you can tell if a book has been pressed, but I think you might be assuming the book has been pressed rather actually knowing it has been.

 

There are many books that fit into your assumption of a pressed book that have not been.

 

True also, as well as is the following:

 

"I see how you may think you can tell if a book has been micro-trimmed, but I think you might be assuming the book has been micro-trimmed rather actually knowing it has been.

 

There are many books that fit into your assumption of a micro-trimmed book that have not been."

[NewWorldOrder]

There is no theory my friend, trimming obviously takes away from a book.

 

 

I agree with you 110% on that but I think you didn't get my point. For me also, trimming obviously takes away from a book. And restoration obviously adds to a book. And pressing obviously alters the shape of a book.

 

 

 

I don’t have to assume, but I know that 99% of the comic collectors out there view trimming as the most destructive thing you can do to a comic book. We all know the 1% of people who fit in that equation are trimming for profit and deceit only to cheat people.

 

Actually that 1% that are still doing trimming are doing it AND DO NOT disclose the fact; they would not cheat people if they were disclosing trimming.

 

 

 

I see how you may think you can tell if a book has been pressed, but I think you might be assuming the book has been pressed rather actually knowing it has been.

 

There are many books that fit into your assumption of a pressed book that have not been.

 

True also, as well as is the following:

 

"I see how you may think you can tell if a book has been micro-trimmed, but I think you might be assuming the book has been micro-trimmed rather actually knowing it has been.

 

There are many books that fit into your assumption of a micro-trimmed book that have not been."

 

You said “in theory” about trimming that’s why I didn’t get your first sentence of your post.

 

If a know seller was disclosing they were trimming books they would probably get beat up at the comic conventions.

 

Trimming is very much not an accepted practice as a comic book restoration procedure. So either way no ones in the comic community would be happy with the seller, even while disclosing the trimming if they are trimming their inventory on a regular basis.

 

[sborock]

"Being complicit with the machine, does not derail your ability to questions the cogs." Me.

 

Very true.

 

Problem is, questioning is fine, but getting all high and moral about certain views, then trying to force those views on other people while using the "machine" is quite different.

 

At least I think that is what Jim was getting at. Not trying to put words in his mouth. Sometimes good steak, but never words

 

Possibly, but the "love it or leave it" mentality is usually linked to a lack of thought process. If you throw out the extremes, I've always believed that the discourse will come through. In the discussions over NDP, on this board at least, I still believe all the mud was worth it if one collector became aware of "all the cards that were on the table." Even if that single collector chose to acknowledge it, factor it, and the end result didn't change their collecting mentality one bit.

 

I'm sure there are those who are a little distraught that NDP has proliferated, that the tactic didn't stay in the hands of the few - it was a very profitable inside joke after all. In your statement, you would need to extrapolate the phrases "certain views" the mechanism through which those views are being "forced" and whom the views are being forced upon. Someone could say well if you don't like CGC don't use it, another person could say, well if you don't like what you read don't read it - I would say I hope both those views are not the standard through which anything of merit is hinged upon.

 

I understand all this, but, as you know, I am quite open to discussion about all the issues, as you and I have talked enough about many. It's they way they are being forced by ANY side as a moral issue that bothers me.

 

If I believe someting is truly a minor "evil" (say, in my case, most pharmaceutical commercials on TV that tell you they are great for 2 whole minutes and then, after that, squeezing in and going fast for 10 seconds describing all the horrible things that can happen if you use the product.), I tell my friends and anyone who asks me what I think about it and not use the product. I do not tell people who use that product that they are morally wrong for doing so, but I will tell them why I think it is wrong and let them go on their way, deciding for themselves.

 

I also do not stop watching my favorite show if it is on the same channel.

 

It's not slavery, genocide or anything else that I would consider "truly evil", that, yes, I would rally around and "preach" to others, that if they continue such practice, they are evil as well.

 

end of

 

 

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'm sure you have mentioned it before, but I can't recall. Are you going to be selling CGC graded books in your new shop?

 

Of course I am.

 

And what's that got to do with the price of fish?

[sborock]

I'm sure you have mentioned it before, but I can't recall. Are you going to be selling CGC graded books in your new shop?

 

Of course I am.

 

And what's that got to do with the price of fish?

 

The price of fish has gone up lately.........

[Dick Pontoon]

What this thread needs is more fish in the face.