The Death of "Marvel Whitmans"...

[markseifert]

Fwiw... even if David's tenure in sales was a bit later than this, it wasn't too much later, I wouldn't think, and given that he's always seemed pretty open to answering questions he might at least be able to provide a few tidbits on the subject.

[ShieldAgent]

this still blows.

 

maybe Jon should have contacted Peter David, or whoever.

[ShieldAgent]

"What do the Tooth Fairy and Jon Mclure have in common?"

 

just askin'

[RockMyAmadeus]

"What do the Tooth Fairy and Jon Mclure have in common?"

 

just askin'

 

Oh come on, now...you haven't even read the article yet (for that matter, I haven't read all of it, either. I just don't want to break open my Hero's Initiative Lit Ed.)

 

I tell you what....I'll read the WHOLE article, and see where he gets his information. I have a feeling, like most "comic book histories", it's entirely unsourced, but I could be wrong.

 

 

[ShieldAgent]

"What do the Tooth Fairy and Jon Mclure have in common?"

 

just askin'

 

Oh come on, now...you haven't even read the article yet (for that matter, I haven't read all of it, either. I just don't want to break open my Hero's Initiative Lit Ed.)

 

I tell you what....I'll read the WHOLE article, and see where he gets his information. I have a feeling, like most "comic book histories", it's entirely unsourced, but I could be wrong.

 

 

 

I should have just ordered one, but I didn't.

 

just fill us in on the proof part while I figure out how I am getting one (thumbs u

[FlyingDonut]

and the proof is...what? Because Jon says so

 

Yeah, and ASM 121 is the start of the Bronze Age - and that's straight from the Editor in Chief and Editor of OS, the two top dogs.

 

OS is a joke, and Jon McClure sounds like yet another funny book genius.

 

Once again, that is an incorrect statement.

 

Huh, you posted the article, and it WAS written by the EiC and Editor of OS at the time. Which should have significantly more impact than a random article from Jon "Know Nothing" McClure.

 

1. "Could be" is a whole lot different from "is the"

 

and

 

2. ARNOLD SAID IT WASN'T less than a week ago here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

and the proof is...what? Because Jon says so

 

Yeah, and ASM 121 is the start of the Bronze Age - and that's straight from the Editor in Chief and Editor of OS, the two top dogs.

 

OS is a joke, and Jon McClure sounds like yet another funny book genius.

 

Once again, that is an incorrect statement.

 

Huh, you posted the article, and it WAS written by the EiC and Editor of OS at the time. Which should have significantly more impact than a random article from Jon "Know Nothing" McClure.

 

1. "Could be" is a whole lot different from "is the"

 

and

 

"Joe_Collector" and "hypohetical" are two diametrically opposed concepts.

 

 

 

 

[joecgcmaniac]

and the proof is...what? Because Jon says so

 

Yeah, and ASM 121 is the start of the Bronze Age - and that's straight from the Editor in Chief and Editor of OS, the two top dogs.

 

OS is a joke, and Jon McClure sounds like yet another funny book genius.

 

Once again, that is an incorrect statement.

 

Huh, you posted the article, and it WAS written by the EiC and Editor of OS at the time. Which should have significantly more impact than a random article from Jon "Know Nothing" McClure.

 

1. "Could be" is a whole lot different from "is the"

 

and

 

"Joe_Collector" and "common sense" are two diametrically opposed concepts.

 

 

(thumbs u fixed that for ya

[joe_collector]

I tell you what....I'll read the WHOLE article, and see where he gets his information. I have a feeling, like most "comic book histories", it's entirely unsourced, but I could be wrong.

 

The problem with this is, that there is 100% undeniable proof that these exact issues were distributed by Whitman in multi-packs (I have some and Terry has lots), so to prove these issues were somehow all distributed to LCS through the DM, you need the same level of proof.

 

Otherwise, it's just another example of OS spewing out hot air for another dealer-led initiative.

[joe_collector]

and the proof is...what? Because Jon says so

 

Yeah, and ASM 121 is the start of the Bronze Age - and that's straight from the Editor in Chief and Editor of OS, the two top dogs.

 

OS is a joke, and Jon McClure sounds like yet another funny book genius.

 

Once again, that is an incorrect statement.

 

Huh, you posted the article, and it WAS written by the EiC and Editor of OS at the time. Which should have significantly more impact than a random article from Jon "Know Nothing" McClure.

 

1. "Could be" is a whole lot different from "is the"

 

and

 

"Joe_Collector" and "common sense" are two diametrically opposed concepts.

 

 

(thumbs u Joe Collector is my hero and I dream about him every night.

 

fixed that for ya (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

I tell you what....I'll read the WHOLE article, and see where he gets his information. I have a feeling, like most "comic book histories", it's entirely unsourced, but I could be wrong.

 

The problem with this is, that there is 100% undeniable proof that these exact issues were distributed by Whitman in multi-packs (I have some and Terry has lots), so to prove these issues were somehow all distributed to LCS through the DM, you need the same level of proof.

 

 

Whitman WAS (part of) the Direct Market.

 

[joe_collector]

Whitman WAS (part of) the Direct Market.

 

Whitman 3-packs were sold at retail, often RIGHT BESIDE the usual spinner rack (the places I always bought them at *also* had new comics), which would make them a hybrid of retail/newsstand, and certainly not Direct Market distribution targeted at the LCS.

 

And by no one's position, even those who are uninformed, was the LCS anywhere near the point for the majority of of these Whitman books. In order to qualify as Direct, selling "directly" to the LCD specialty store, rather than to the reader, has to be the prime market.

[joecgcmaniac]

I tell you what....I'll read the WHOLE article, and see where he gets his information. I have a feeling, like most "comic book histories", it's entirely unsourced, but I could be wrong.

 

The problem with this is, that there is 100% undeniable proof that these exact issues were distributed by Whitman in multi-packs (I have some and Terry has lots), so to prove these issues were somehow all distributed to LCS through the DM, you need the same level of proof.

 

Otherwise, it's just another example of OS spewing out hot air for another dealer-led initiative.

 

If you would actually READ the article (shocking idea, really), you might find the answers to your questions

[joecgcmaniac]

and the proof is...what? Because Jon says so

 

Yeah, and ASM 121 is the start of the Bronze Age - and that's straight from the Editor in Chief and Editor of OS, the two top dogs.

 

OS is a joke, and Jon McClure sounds like yet another funny book genius.

 

Once again, that is an incorrect statement.

 

Huh, you posted the article, and it WAS written by the EiC and Editor of OS at the time. Which should have significantly more impact than a random article from Jon "Know Nothing" McClure.

 

1. "Could be" is a whole lot different from "is the"

 

and

 

"Joe_Collector" and "common sense" are two diametrically opposed concepts.

 

 

(thumbs u Joe Collector is mindless pea-brain who can't get his own head out of his back-side

 

fixed that for ya (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Whitman WAS (part of) the Direct Market.

 

Whitman 3-packs were sold at retail, often RIGHT BESIDE the usual spinner rack (the places I always bought them at *also* had new comics), which would make them a hybrid of retail/newsstand, and certainly not Direct Market distribution targeted at the LCS.

 

 

And your evidence proving this would be......?

 

Why you don't understand that the DM was hardly the established format that it is now, I just don't know.

 

And by no one's position, even those who are uninformed, was the LCS anywhere near the point for the majority of of these Whitman books. In order to qualify as Direct, selling "directly" to the LCD specialty store, rather than to the reader, has to be the prime market.

 

Ok, JC. You so desperately want to categorize and neatly label everything that happened in the comics industry from 1976-1980, but the reality is, the time was a period of great tumult and change. Comics specialty stores during that period went from being great rarities in big metropolitan areas to nearly ubiquitous by the mid 1980's. You are postively OBSESSED with the idea of "the LCS" that you can't fathom that that's not what Seuling and others conceived of as THE DIRECT MARKET. These people were willing to distribute to ANYONE, be it comics specialty stores, newsstands, bookstores, WHOMEVER. The point wasn't to "establish comics specialty stores." The point was to sell more comics through a better distribution system that allowed for tighter ordering, better sell-through, and thus, better discounts.

 

Nothing more. Nothing less. That "local comics stores" sprang up so vigorously in the early 80's was as a RESULT of the DM, not the other way around.

[Jeffro.]

You guys are wasting your time. What JC believes is what reality is. You'd have better luck getting witty repartee from those loose rocks in your back yard.

[gifflefunk]

There were an estimated 20 or 30 comic shops nationwide in the early '70s.[1] Around 1973-74 Phil Sueling started buying comics on a non-returnable basis and in 1974 Seuling founded East Coast Seagate Distribution to handle his sales.[1] In 1974 there were 200 or 300 comic shops.[2] By 1975 25% of all comic books were being sold via "direct" distribution through Seuling and a few others.[3] In 1979 an anti-trust lawsuit was filed against all the publishers by Irjax (in reaction to the Seagate monopoly) and Marvel begins looking at a new Direct Distribution model.[4] Ed Shukin offers Chuck Rozanski the chance to become the first new Marvel Comics distributor under terms created in May, 1979.[5] In the Summer of 1979, 19 or 20 Marvel Direct Market distributors blossomed after Marvel opened up their distribution.[6] By 1980, approximately 1500 comic and specialty shops existed nationwide.[2] Marvel's only printed statement so far has been: "The number, month and price in this diamond shape means the issue was not distributed by Curtis Circulation and, that you probably got it from a direct sales comic shop or other outlet. The two boxes (not shown here) with a little 'cc' symbol means it was circulated by Curtis."[7]

 

This "other outlet" presumably would include Western Publishing. From the Western Publishing 3-pack lineage there is a nearly unbroken chain of "diamond" issues that starts in 1977 and extends through the consolidation point in May 1979 and into the 1980s. From Marvel's point-of-view there was newsstand distribution through Curtis and non-newsstand distribution which would seem to include the direct sales to Seagate and to Western Publishing. It appears to me that there were many threads to the early direct distribution of Marvel comics (pre-1979) and that these threads became intertwined into the rope of the Direct Market after May 1979. This is the point in time when the "diamonds" overprint became the standard look for all non-Curtis/non-newsstand issues.

 

If you define the direct market as solely being comic shops then the pre-1979 diamond issues are "Whitmans" (for lack of a better term). However, if you consider all non-Curtis distributed material to be part of the direct market, then the pre-1979 diamonds and the discounted "regular" issues sold to Seagate are both Direct Market material.

 

Are the pre-1979 diamond issues exclusively "Whitmans" or did Marvel experiment with distributing them prior to the May 1979 consolidation? Marvel was big into "test markets" in the late 1970s so it wouldn't surprise me at all that they had been looking at expanding their direct market distribution prior to 1979. If that is the case why would they limit themselves to an exclusive Whitman overprint like DC used if your plan all along was to split your print run to identify newsstand and direct market issues?. Clearly Marvel didn't have an issue putting the Whitman logo on some material because they did so on a large number of Treasury sized books distributed by Western Publishing/Whitman. So why have a diamond if you plan to have an exclusive deal with Whitman?

 

These are open questions, but what I am certain about is that Western Publishing was the driving force that determined if Marvel was going to have a print a run with diamonds prior to the 1979 consolidation, so calling these early diamond issues "Whitmans" isn't without some merit even if they are just early "Direct Market" books.

 

sources:

[1]=http://heroinitiative.blogspot.com/2009/12/and-now-3000-words-on-phil-seuling.html

[2]=http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2004/aug/19/two-men-and-their-comic-books/

[3]=http://www.povonline.com/notes/Notes123104.htm

[4]=http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg107.html

[5]=http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg109.html

[6]=http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg117.html

[7]=http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/Direct/index.cfm

[shadroch]

I'll dispute your point number 2. Shooter and Carol Kalish state that Direct Sales were under 10% Marvels sales in the late 1970s.

[gifflefunk]

And from The Comic Reader, Oct 1980:

column 1

column 2

 

This is the earliest source I can find that mentions the Marvel "diamonds" and Western Publishing/Whitman. I'm not sure what their sources were other than the same observations we've all made in regards to the early "diamonds" appearing in 3-packs.

[gifflefunk]

I'll dispute your point number 2. Shooter and Carol Kalish state that Direct Sales were under 10% Marvels sales in the late 1970s.

 

The 25% figure is for the entire direct market, which comes from Mark Evanier. Marvel's Direct Sales in 1979 were approximately 6% according to Chuck Rozanski.

 

Also, those aren't "points" but source notes, so the [x] number follows the material... so that came from source #3: http://www.povonline.com/notes/Notes123104.htm (feel free to dispute Mark all you want )