Toughest Bronze Age Marvels?

[awe4one]

The Steranko "Our Love Story" is very hard to find (I believe it was #10).

 

It was Our Love Story #5....

 

 

Jim

[drbanner]

More Bronze rarity discussion...

 

Thought I remebered some talk of this before. Didn't you also run a poll DrB?

 

Silly question really....of course you did

 

I thought I did as well, but couldn't find a link. As I recall, it was the toughest key book, though, not just any book. MTU 1 was the winner I believe!!

[drbanner]

Are there any hard to find comics you don't have?

 

Jim

I don't have all of the Harveys or the L'il Pals!

 

 

[joe_collector]

The 72-73 Marvels seem tougher also because of the colored cover border which all books had and exagerates the numerous production flaws of the time. Try finding nicely centered NM books from this time period.

 

We talked about this before, and I think the low 72-73 numbers come down to a shift in return arrangements, whereby remainder copies were destroyed or the top cover ripped off for return credit, rather than the "honor system" that was in place.

 

Few collectors realize just how important "warehouse finds" are in determining high-grade numbers, and it does seem that this era just doesn't have as many "unread warehouse copies" uncovered.

 

I wonder if anyone was working in magazine warehousing and distributing back then, as there does seem to be a direct correlation.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Thanks everyone for all the input so far....hopefully I can find a couple of these beauties at Mega-Con.

 

By chance if anyone has for sale any true NM copies of Marvel's Greatest Comics (the FF reprints), I would be interested in hearing from you. Especially interested in the Giant-Size and 20-centers! Thanks!

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

and I think the low 72-73 numbers comes down to a shift in return arrangements

 

I wonder what the circulation was for the reprints of this era; I can't imagine it was very high. Most of the books were reprinting stories that were only a few years old, so I doubt most collectors bothered to buy them anyway. Those that did probably actually read them, thus the lack of high grade copies.

[joe_collector]

Some of those Marvel's Greatest and Marvel Tales early to mid-70's issues had pretty high circulation, but the bigger culprit may be guys like Chuckles buying the MH2 collection and simply not Mylar'ing and taking care of the reprints due to low resale value - as opposed to his "handle with kid gloves" treatment of books like FF 48 and Hulk 181.

 

But I really don't get the "investment" appeal of these reprint comics.

 

Granted, I like some of the covers and collect them, but reprints will always be just that, second-class citizens to the original material. They certainly are fun to collect, but I don't see these mushrooming in value in the future, even with brain-dead speculators running rampant in the biz.

[awe4one]

and I think the low 72-73 numbers comes down to a shift in return arrangements

 

I wonder what the circulation was for the reprints of this era; I can't imagine it was very high. Most of the books were reprinting stories that were only a few years old, so I doubt most collectors bothered to buy them anyway. Those that did probably actually read them, thus the lack of high grade copies.

 

I'd bet the reprints sold pretty well during the early 70s. During this timeframe, Marvel had these reprint titles on the racks:

 

Marvel's Greatest Comics

Marvel Triple Action

Marvel Tales

Marvel Double Feature

Marvel Super-Heroes

Marvel Spectacular

Dead of Night

Crypt of Shadows

And probably others I'm forgeting.....

 

So I'd suspect that reprint titles, whicle not top sellers, sold pretty well considering numerous "new" titles were quickly canceled in that timeframe (Cat, Night Nurse, Gunslingers, Shanna, etc.).

 

I think them not surviving in HG has more to do with general inattention by collectors over the years than the actual circulation figures....

 

Jim

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Some of those Marvel's Greatest and Marvel Tales early to mid-70's issues had pretty high circulation, but the bigger culprit may be guys like Chuckles buying the MH2 collection and simply not Mylar'ing and taking care of the reprints due to low resale value - as opposed to his "handle with kid gloves" treatment of books like FF 48 and Hulk 181.

 

But I really don't get the "investment" appeal of these reprint comics.

 

Granted, I like some of the covers and collect them, but reprints will always be just that, second-class citizens to the original material. They certainly are fun to collect, but I don't see these mushrooming in value in the future, even with brain-dead speculators running rampant in the biz.

 

Who says anything about buying these for investment? I'm getting out of the high dollar books and back into stuff that really appeals to me, is hard to find, and ultimately cheap. And I agree, many of the reprints are very cool, especially those that were gifted with new covers.

 

We're talking about books that are tough as nails to find in high grade (principally because there is little financial incentive for dealers to rumage through their warehouse stock to locate them), with great covers, and that are ultra cheap in the Guide. Add in the great appeal of the classic stories, and you have what in my mind is a perfect back issue collecting area to explore.

 

Let's face it, many of the twenty cent reprints top out at $5-7 in the Guide...what better way for the high grade Marvel collector who either doesn't have, or doesn't want to spend, a lot of money collecting his favorite characters/stories of the Silver and Bronze Ages?

 

And for those of you who belittle these books because of the reprint stigma, don't forget Superman # 1 was essentially a collection of reprints too.

[joe_collector]

Who says anything about buying these for investment? I'm getting out of the high dollar books and back into stuff that really appeals to me, is hard to find, and ultimately cheap. And I agree, many of the reprints are very cool, especially those that were gifted with new covers.

 

I agree, but when people start bandying around terms like "scarcity in high grade", alarm bells automatically go off.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I agree, but when people start bandying around terms like "scarcity in high grade", alarm bells automatically go off.

 

Time will tell. I think after 4-6 months of looking for these books, I will get a gauge for whether they are really tough to find in NM or a victim of low Guide value/low demand and are still collecting dust by the bushel in comic warehouses across America.

[Zonker]

So I'd suspect that reprint titles, whicle not top sellers, sold pretty well considering numerous "new" titles were quickly canceled in that timeframe (Cat, Night Nurse, Gunslingers, Shanna, etc.).

 

I think them not surviving in HG has more to do with general inattention by collectors over the years than the actual circulation figures....

 

Jim

 

I'd agree with your last statement. And I'm sure the reprints weren't exactly losing money giving the rising costs of newsprint at the time. But one reason for their proliferation at both DC and Marvel was their relatively low cost. Until the 1980s none of the big companies paid any royalities to creators, so these were more-or-less free stories Marvel & DC could sell again. Cost containment was also the reason for the big push at the same time for DC to farm out their horror books to the Phillipines (Nestor Redondo and his many compatriots). So it's possible the reprints could be profitable with lower circulations than the newer books.

[greggy]

Are there any hard to find comics you don't have?

 

Jim

I don't have all of the Harveys or the L'il Pals!

 

 

Bah...I meant the L'il Kids. I do have the L'il Pals!

[Zonker]

We talked about this before, and I think the low 72-73 numbers come down to a shift in return arrangements, whereby remainder copies were destroyed or the top cover ripped off for return credit, rather than the "honor system" that was in place.

 

Joe, was that right? I seem to remember from reading the various Beerbohm articles that it was the other way around: originally you had to strip the cover to return the book, and then this policy was 'liberalized' to only having signed affadavit returns as the 1970s wore on. I was under the impression this growing fraud problem was one reason for the collapse of the newstand distribution and the rise of the direct sales channel.

 

Here's another idea for the possible decline in 72-73 hoarded copies: At 12 cents or 15 cents a shot, you had a lot of small time speculators hoarding multiple copies. At 20 cents or 25 cents, the risk of guessing wrong suddenly goes up. We can laugh today about a 10 cent per copy difference, but it was a big deal back then, and considered in percentage terms, would be a big deal even today.

 

And one final theory: in 72 and 73 you had some spectacular missed calls in attempting to hoard new "hot" books at DC:

Shazam #1 (the granddaddy of all bad calls in new comics speculation!)

Shadow #1 (great book; but now they're everywhere, and have been for years!)

Tarzan #207

Any Kirby #1 after Mr Miracle.

 

The exception to this rule was Swamp Thing #1.

 

Was 72-73 the result of the first of the Great Spec Crashes?

[joe_collector]

Joe, was that right? I seem to remember from reading the various Beerbohm articles that it was the other way around: originally you had to strip the cover to return the book, and then this policy was 'liberalized' to only having signed affadavit returns as the 1970s wore on.

 

I know, but there had to be some "transition period" where the new methods took over from the old. I'd be interested in knowing the exact date this took place, as there are less warehouse copies from the 72-73 era than just previous, or just after.

 

I have a feeling it took a few years for the Comic Mafia to perfect their methods of scamming through the new, more lax return system.

 

Price certainly did have an impact on the collector base, but I can't see it having a real effect on the remainder copy supply.

[Zonker]

The article in Comic Book Artist #6 previously mentioned might shed some additional light.

 

From what I've read, the collector/speculator/dealer line was a lot less distinct in the early 1970s before the direct market came into being, with guys like Beerbohm buying and hoarding hundreds of copies. According to him, he personally knew of a 25,000 copy stash of Conan #1! (Still doesn't explain what changed by '72 or '73 of course).

[awe4one]

So I'd suspect that reprint titles, whicle not top sellers, sold pretty well considering numerous "new" titles were quickly canceled in that timeframe (Cat, Night Nurse, Gunslingers, Shanna, etc.).

 

I think them not surviving in HG has more to do with general inattention by collectors over the years than the actual circulation figures....

 

Jim

 

I'd agree with your last statement. And I'm sure the reprints weren't exactly losing money giving the rising costs of newsprint at the time. But one reason for their proliferation at both DC and Marvel was their relatively low cost. Until the 1980s none of the big companies paid any royalities to creators, so these were more-or-less free stories Marvel & DC could sell again. Cost containment was also the reason for the big push at the same time for DC to farm out their horror books to the Phillipines (Nestor Redondo and his many compatriots). So it's possible the reprints could be profitable with lower circulations than the newer books.

 

Oh absolutely....

 

I happen to believe that sales on some of these reprints were higher though regardless of the savings. The sheer number of reprint titles that Marvel was producing on a regular basis suggests that they were indeed pretty profitable. Profitable enough even to start new reprint titles such as Marvel Double Feature and Spectacular. Mirror this with the quick yank of the titles with new content I mentioned before and I think the reprints sold quite well.

 

Jim

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Price certainly did have an impact on the collector base, but I can't see it having a real effect on the remainder copy supply.

 

It would, if after the first few issues the publishers started noting the decreased sales....the net result would be lower circulation for upcoming issues wouldn't it?

 

As for the overall circulation of the reprints, I'm not inclined to agree that they sold all that well. Yes, they would've been more cost effective to produce, with a built in readership base likely present. But why don't they exist in larger numbers, at least in high grade? I mean, I've been collecting Silver and Bronze for the better part of 10 years, and I swear I've never seen some of these books until now....that's a lot of back issue bins I've searched through without coming across any of these issues.

 

Ponder this: Marvel's Greatest Comics starts out as Giant Size issues with mostly reprints of the old covers (I think a couple are original). Then with the 20-centers, a string of new covers appear. Could this be because Marvel thought new, never-before-seen covers would spice up sales? Afterall, If sales were strong, why bother commissioning a new cover? Then, after about 10 issues, its back to reprint covers for the rest of the series. I've noticed this in my runs of Marvel Triple Action & Marvel Super Heroes also; virtually all the new covers are in the 20-cent era...and virtually all of the 25-centers and up are just reprinted covers. I'd be interested to know why this happened. I think if you add in the fact that the 20-centers probably met with price resistance (afterall, most Marvel fans already knew the stories), with the fact that they only contained one story (as opposed to the 2-story, 25-cent Giant size issues offered only months before), you may have Marvel's first documented used of gimmick covers to sell comics!

 

And thanks for all the feedback from everyone so far...this is a very enigmatic era in comics and I appreciate all the input/theories put out so far.

[awe4one]

Anyone have a Standard Catalog of Comicbooks available to check on the circulation numbers?

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

But why don't they exist in larger numbers, at least in high grade? I mean, I've been collecting Silver and Bronze for the better part of 10 years, and I swear I've never seen some of these books until now....that's a lot of back issue bins I've searched through without coming across any of these issues.

 

Supply and demand. These reprints have low-Guide values, historically have sold like crapola as back issues, and are usually not worth the effort to price and display.

 

The only way to get an accurate read on the HG availability is when the book in question becomes highly valuable, such as Hulk 181 or ASM 129.

 

Trust me, if early 70's Marvel's Greatest CGC 9.4 copies started selling for $500, you'd see these things coming out of the woodwork. Chuck probably has a nice hoard from his MH2 days.