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Let's get some things straight...

Started by COI,

181 posts in this topic

RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
disagree on the back cover. i really do think the same amount of wear looks worse on the black cover and stuff that doesn't show on a white cover (like what appear to be scratches) shows up on a black.

 

The same amount of wear may look worse on a black cover, but ultimately it's the same amount of wear, and should therefore garner the same technical grade.

 

There actually is truth to the idea of a darker cover being tougher to find.

 

Certain ink colors are more brittle than others, and where a more pliable color (generally lighter) may only react to handling wear by producing a bend, a dark color book may actually break the ink and create a crease.

 

Food for thought, Anaximenes the Materialist.

 

:makepoint:

 

Got data sheets for this....?

 

hm

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COI

COI

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Misconceptions annoy me.

 

Overvalued/undervalued - How can a book be overvalued or undervalued? The value of something is what the market will bear at any given point. DD #1 isn't worth what ASM #1 is worth, despite the former being a significant first appearance, because people aren't willing to pay for it. Someone thinking something should be worth more/less doesn't make it so.

 

Black/dark covers are rarer in HG - Again, how can this be? Assume 2 books roll off the presses in perfect condition; one is a black cover, one is yellow. Billy buys the black cover, Jimmy buys the yellow. Both boys take their books home, read them, then leave them on the couch. Both boys have very fat mothers, who are nearsighted, and both mothers sit on those copies. Assuming the exact same conditions (same couch, both mothers are the same weight, both have arses that are roughly the same same) why would the black cover sustain more damage?

 

Investment grade - WTF is an investment grade? If you buy a 5.0 Hulk 181 at a garage sale for $10, that's a better investment than a 9.8 Hulk 181 purchased for 40K. The grade of a book you buy is irrelevant in terms of "investment potential", only the price point matters.

 

Grail - Please look this word up; in the context of collecting, it's misused 99% of the time.

 

Commodity - Again, please look this word up, and use it accordingly.

 

Please feel free to contribute any common misconceptions, myths and misused terms that float around this hobby.

 

Oh, and 10,000 posts after nearly 8 years. My mother would be proud.

 

God, I love you.

 

:luhv:

 

Bromance. :cloud9:

 

 

 

 

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djpinkpanther67

djpinkpanther67

Posted
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Not sure if this falls into the category of this thread, but what annoys me is when people selling their books try to get more than the FMV than the book is worth in current grade based upon personal opinion/speculation...car salesman tactics :pullhair:

 

Examples:

 

1) Selling a CGC graded 9.4 at a 9.6 price because they throw GPA/FMV out the window as it's it's a "tough book", yet there are plenty of GPA sales in the last year to disprove this opinion

 

2) Selling a CGC graded book at a higher GPA/FMV price because CGC "got the grade wrong" (in their opinion of course). If this is the case, then resub it yourself :makepoint:

 

3) Selling a book using the "factor of potentialization" - If the seller has a NM- raw or slabbed book that "with a pressing will reach a much higher grade", then asking the higher grade price. To me this sucks because if I only want a VF/NM or NM- book, why should I have to pay a NM / NM+ price based upon speculation of a grade increase? It's not even guaranteed it would grade higher anyways.

doh!

 

BTW congrats on post #10k :applause:

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COI

COI

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disagree on the back cover. i really do think the same amount of wear looks worse on the black cover and stuff that doesn't show on a white cover (like what appear to be scratches) shows up on a black.

 

The same amount of wear may look worse on a black cover, but ultimately it's the same amount of wear, and should therefore garner the same technical grade.

 

There actually is truth to the idea of a darker cover being tougher to find press.

 

 

Ok, now I understand.

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COI

COI

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No, no, see, you don't understand. Black ink is made by dumping all the other inks in a big vat, thus mixing the colors and creating a weaker bonding cohesion from the resultant ink blend.

 

 

This sounds like a sophism to me.

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COI

COI

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disagree on the back cover. i really do think the same amount of wear looks worse on the black cover and stuff that doesn't show on a white cover (like what appear to be scratches) shows up on a black.

 

The same amount of wear may look worse on a black cover, but ultimately it's the same amount of wear, and should therefore garner the same technical grade.

 

There actually is truth to the idea of a darker cover being tougher to find.

 

Certain ink colors are more brittle than others, and where a more pliable color (generally lighter) may only react to handling wear by producing a bend, a dark color book may actually break the ink and create a crease.

 

Food for thought, Anaximenes the Materialist.

 

:makepoint:

 

Ok Roy, it's friday.

 

Let's assume this ink thing is true. What you're basically telling me is that there is a degree of damage that would break the color of a black cover, but not a yellow/pink/green/whatever cover. The difference in pressure would have to be very minute, so what are the odds that this slight variation in pressure would occur on a consistent enough basis to warrant the belief that all "black covers are tougher"?

 

 

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Subliminal

Subliminal

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"ish" grading and " would be VF if not for a pieces missing"

 

Last time I check a grading guide there was no ish grades. A range would be more helpful and at least define the best and worse case

 

If you are going to use a "would be...if not for" statement to grade some thing please provide your estimate of it's real grade along with the fantasy grade or you're just being misleading

 

 

 

 

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Loki

Loki

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I have to agree with "Grail".

 

I've always taken "Grail" as a euphemism for that one special book that a collector has made it their life's quest to obtain. For me, it was a nice, mid-grade unrestored AF#15 and I located mine on these boards two years ago. I wanted a copy since I was 8 years old, and it took nearly 30 years before I finally found mine.

 

What bugs me is when people use "Grail" interchangeably with "Key". Or when people have multiple grails that they are pursuing. To have more than one grail sort of dilutes the significance, in my mind.

 

2c

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VintageComics

VintageComics

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Ok Roy, it's friday.

 

Let's assume this ink thing is true. What you're basically telling me is that there is a degree of damage that would break the color of a black cover, but not a yellow/pink/green/whatever cover. The difference in pressure would have to be very minute, so what are the odds that this slight variation in pressure would occur on a consistent enough basis to warrant the belief that all "black covers are tougher"?

 

 

Can't remember where or why I heard it (it was well before I joined this forum), but for the longest time I remember hearing that black (or dark) ink (and yellow funnily enough) were the most brittle, causing the easiest cracking.

 

Something changed after the mid 1960's with Marvel though, (can't comment on DC as I'm not as familiar) as they changed the way they made their comics. Seems to be different ink and paper as we go into the bronze age so that may have changed the quality of ink at the point as well.

 

In the early to early to mid 1960's anything with a black (or dark) cover was brittle. Cheap comics = cheap inks. This can more or less be proven with the census numbers. All of the following books have lower census numbers (in some cases much lower numbers) than their surrounding books.

 

Books like

 

ASM #28

DD #7 (dark black/purple cover)

JLA #3

JIM #84 (brown cover but extremely tough!)

 

Are all impossible to find in higher grades.

 

The argument that black covers are difficult to find in high grade may not be applicable to books after the mid 1960's when cover ink and paper quality was changed but it certainly does to the above books.

 

Finally, it may not be cover creases, it could be as simple as spine stress that drops the grade. Those dimples that may or may not break color on a red, green or white spine may crack easier on a black one.

 

(thumbs u

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the blob

the blob

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3) Selling a book using the "factor of potentialization" - If the seller has a NM- raw or slabbed book that "with a pressing will reach a much higher grade", then asking the higher grade price. To me this sucks because if I only want a VF/NM or NM- book, why should I have to pay a NM / NM+ price based upon speculation of a grade increase? It's not even guaranteed it would grade higher anyways.

 

----------------------------------------

 

A home that could have a legal basement apartment (even if one has not been set up yet) is going to be worth a premium over the one next door that cannot. It's based on potential. A kid who throws 100 is going to get a better signing bonus than the kid who throws 90, assuming everything else is equal, based on potential. The kid who throws 90 might be the next Greg Maddux and the kid who throws 100 might be the next Brien Taylor. It ain't just comics.

 

I dunno though, a subtle 4 inch long non-color breaking "indentation" or supple "bend" really can get pressed out and raise an otherwise perfect book from a VF or worse to a NM or better. Other stuff is a lot less guaranteed. While the tecnhical grade is the same, the pressable book (if press-worthy) really should be "worth"a premium over on with defects that can't be pressed out, especially if we're talking about a book where the VF to NM spread is real money.

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COI

COI

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This can more or less be proven with the census numbers. All of the following books have lower census numbers (in some cases much lower numbers) than their surrounding books.

 

Black covered books may be less pressable; consequently, lighter colored covers may have inflated census numbers. So whether ASM 26 is actually more naturally common in UHG than ASM #28 cannot be accurately determined based on the census alone.

 

Also, many of the books you mentioned are key-ish, which may be why they get more recognition for being scarce. When it comes to early SA, for every "dark" cover that's unusually difficult to find in HG, I can probably find you a light-colored equivalent in the same era (like TOS 40).

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